Was the Rebellion as a setting sustainable?

[Nathan Brazil]

Just looking purely at the Rebellion (so forget about Virus), could it have gone on indefinitely? By that I mean the Imperium fracturing into a bunch of smaller sized states, and these states enduring generations into the future as separate entities, maybe some still nominally claiming the now meaningless title of Emperor and sometimes sparring. It could be a bit like post-Roman Europe or China's Warring States, or like Battletech's Succession Wars.

It could not have lasted. Not as a bunch of warring states as written.

When first presented in the Imperial Encyclopedia, it was written as sufficiently vague that you could think each of the "factions" was out to capture Lucan's Imperium or Lucan get someone else's and thus get the Imperium back together thru eventual conquest.

Then Rebellion Sourcebook came out. There you find out the implied goals of each faction. At the time it was written (IY 1120), only Deneb, Lucan, Margaret and Strephon are making claims that an Imperium is still possible, even if it is lip service. Dulinor has already renamed his realm the Federation of Ilelish (1119). Strephon gets written out soon after with the IRIS thing (1121).

I see one thing that would have happened if things had gone on as written minus Virus stomping in 1130.
Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora shows they Solomani had a large number of systems that far coreward with Vegan refugees going to Daibei. My speculation is they would had their way with the Vegans. Genocide or whatever horrible fate you envision.

This does not take into account events occurring in 1128, 1129, and 1130 as written in the 1248 books like
- Solomani Confederation signs a formal cessation of hostilities with Margaret's Domain in 1129.

 

[mike wightman]

Was it? Really, the distractions seemed to be Space 1889 and Cadillacs and Dinos, Harpoon, and Johnny Reb.

in 1986-87, GDW had a few RPGs in print:
Classic Traveller
Twilight 2000
MegaTraveller
Traveller 2300
And were working on Space 1889 (for 1988 release)

Plus they had several boardgame lines... including games tied in to T2K, 1889, 2300, and Frank's pet obsession, the US Civil War...

Traveller wasn't a "Distraction" - it was THE major product line - about 1 in every 5 releases prior had been Traveller, if not more. (For a while, it was more like 1 in 4.) Between 1979 and 1986 - Traveller went from 1 to 56+ products. Given Marc's oft quote "every 22 days for 20 years"... that would make CT just shy of half the products released during that 7 year window.

In many ways, GDW in 1986 was "The Traveller Company, which also does..."

I disagree - they made most of their money from their various boardgame/wargame series.

 

[aramis]

I disagree - they made most of their money from their various boardgame/wargame series.

Their major product line - half their products (Marc's figures include boardgames), and you call it a "distraction"??? That's absurd. Ludicrous.

 

[whartung]

I disagree - they made most of their money from their various boardgame/wargame series.

Really? You've audited the books? Or do you have quotes from Miller, Chadwick, or Wiseman?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but disagreeing doesn't make it true or false.

 

[mike wightman]

Their major product line - half their products (Marc's figures include boardgames), and you call it a "distraction"??? That's absurd. Ludicrous.

You had better tell that to Frank Chadwick and Dave Nilsen - it is their recollections in interview that I am paraphrasing.
Both have stated that their main business was wargame/boardgame design and that MegaTraveller was farmed out to DGP because they thought they (DGP) could give it the time they did not - hence it was a distraction.

 

[mike wightman]

Really? You've audited the books? Or do you have quotes from Miller, Chadwick, or Wiseman?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but disagreeing doesn't make it true or false.

I have interviews with Frank Chadwick and Dave Nilsen saved to my hard drive that say this.

I would think that Marc may still have the actual figures for revenue earned from the various GDW lines, but I have never seen such data so I can only go by what has been written by the guys who ran the company.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Not having the "insider knowledge" the rest of you fine folks have on revenues of the products, I have only to go with the the advertising found in Challenge magazine.

It seems to me that advertising space not sold to other companies is used by the owning company to promote it's own products. I think the term was "house organ". With that in mind, the products GDW seemed to be pushing via Challenge Magazine advertising, at the time of MegaTraveller were all the other product lines EXCEPT for MT.

Were they secure in MT sales? Were other lines not doing so well? Did they want to chuck MT. What was up?

 

[aramis]

You had better tell that to Frank Chadwick and Dave Nilsen - it is their recollections in interview that I am paraphrasing.
Both have stated that their main business was wargame/boardgame design and that MegaTraveller was farmed out to DGP because they thought they (DGP) could give it the time they did not - hence it was a distraction.

The irony is that the majority of visible products going forward were RPGs and RPG related boardgames. T2K/Command Decision/, Space 1889 & it's 3 minis games and 2 boardgames, 2300 and it's boardgame, Dark Conspiracy, Dangerous Journeys. The big non-RPG-tied wargame going forward was Harpoon. Later TNE and it's minis and 2 boardgames.

 

[Iracundus]

It could not have lasted. Not as a bunch of warring states as written.

When first presented in the Imperial Encyclopedia, it was written as sufficiently vague that you could think each of the "factions" was out to capture Lucan's Imperium or Lucan get someone else's and thus get the Imperium back together thru eventual conquest.

Then Rebellion Sourcebook came out. There you find out the implied goals of each faction. At the time it was written (IY 1120), only Deneb, Lucan, Margaret and Strephon are making claims that an Imperium is still possible, even if it is lip service. Dulinor has already renamed his realm the Federation of Ilelish (1119). Strephon gets written out soon after with the IRIS thing (1121).

I see one thing that would have happened if things had gone on as written minus Virus stomping in 1130.
Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora shows they Solomani had a large number of systems that far coreward with Vegan refugees going to Daibei. My speculation is they would had their way with the Vegans. Genocide or whatever horrible fate you envision.

This does not take into account events occurring in 1128, 1129, and 1130 as written in the 1248 books like
- Solomani Confederation signs a formal cessation of hostilities with Margaret's Domain in 1129.

Sorry, but how is that not lasting sort of as written? You have the major successor states like Lucan, Margaret, Dulinor, etc... then minor ones like Daibei and Strephon. The Solomani Confederation I think in one of the books (was it Hard times?) was already suffering internal conflict as moderate factions received diplomatic feelers from Margaret to the anger of the hardline factions.

Minus Virus, it seems by 1130 everyone had given up any real fighting beyond some raiding in favor of trying to conserve and rebuild what they had. It sounded like a post war new status quo was effectively forming. You had the major factions reduced to maybe a sector of core safe space and in between there would be lone worlds, pocket empires, and devastation.

Dulinor's Coronation Fleet was really the last gasp of the Rebellion. If both Lucan and Dulinor die as a result of the Coronation Fleet, then the two biggest factions get led by their successors, who may be more content to let the fragmentation persist than make another bid for the Imperium as a whole.

 

[GypsyComet]

Sorry, but how is that not lasting sort of as written?

There are two questions implied here:

"Could Traveller have continued without the Virus reset?"
"What would it look like?"

The up-scale warfare of the early Rebellion was not sustainable, most of the neighbors were gearing up for war of one sort or another, and a lot of Charted Space was sliding into chaos.

The Rebellion was not going to last. Neither was the Imperium. You are going to get a "New Era" one way or another, though it won't necessarily be the one published.

 

[Iracundus]

There are two questions implied here:

"Could Traveller have continued without the Virus reset?"
"What would it look like?"

The up-scale warfare of the early Rebellion was not sustainable, most of the neighbors were gearing up for war of one sort or another, and a lot of Charted Space was sliding into chaos.

The Rebellion was not going to last. Neither was the Imperium. You are going to get a "New Era" one way or another, though it won't necessarily be the one published.

Well to Lucan (or his successors), Dulinor (or his successors) would still be in rebellion, so in that sense the Rebellion continues. To Lucan's enemies, they could keep calling his time the Usurpation or whatever pejorative title they want.

The total war of the early Rebellion might have been unsustainable. However after a period of post-Hard Times rebuilding, I could see resumption of limited warfare or raiding as the successor states jockey for position and reclaiming territory.

Internally Lucan's Imperium might still call itself the Imperium. For those players playing inside the safes of each state, it could still be as if they are in the Imperium...maybe with altered logos and currency.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Sorry, but how is that not lasting sort of as written?

I am referring to the general reluctance of using the 1248 books. I choose to be "bound by canon" but can look beyond it.

In general:
The issue is the communication lag time (knowing where to go) until physical interaction (what to do once you get there).

If you look at the sheer distances involved in the map of Hard Times page 17 with the War Zones by 1125, nothing is worth raiding by 1128. Since you have no FTL communication, you do not know if what is worth raiding is still there when you get there. Communication is the usual 168 hours plus or minus. Worse, the loss of TL is killing swaths of planet populations (the Doom Trade and all that). Conquest is a pipe dream once the supporting systems are gone, or worse, want nothing to do with you.

This is unlike BattleTech. The apparent refuel/travel is the same but you have HPG communication to phone back coded messages to headquarters and many more planets are habitable to start with no need for life support. Add the fact that you generally cannot silence the HPG (all that ComStar "neutrality") system means that the information is more current just prior to the final jump for the raid. If you go decimate/genocide the planet the old fashioned way, you have ole ComStar interdict the entire empire due to your zealousness.

 

[aramis]

Hard Times doesn't affect the safes much; those cores by 1128 will likely stay such for the reasons Nathan states. The only possible exception being something taking over and unifying the safes. Those borders need only be about 12Pc deep to remain stable long term; by 1128, they pushing 30 Pc deep... and stabilizing.

 

[Iracundus]

If you look at the sheer distances involved in the map of Hard Times page 17 with the War Zones by 1125, nothing is worth raiding by 1128. Since you have no FTL communication, you do not know if what is worth raiding is still there when you get there. Communication is the usual 168 hours plus or minus. Worse, the loss of TL is killing swaths of planet populations (the Doom Trade and all that). Conquest is a pipe dream once the supporting systems are gone, or worse, want nothing to do with you.

This is unlike BattleTech. The apparent refuel/travel is the same but you have HPG communication to phone back coded messages to headquarters and many more planets are habitable to start with no need for life support. Add the fact that you generally cannot silence the HPG (all that ComStar "neutrality") system means that the information is more current just prior to the final jump for the raid. If you go decimate/genocide the planet the old fashioned way, you have ole ComStar interdict the entire empire due to your zealousness.

Each state reclaiming territory would presumably use the old carrot and stick approach (worded diplomatically of course): join us and we help you rebuild your economy and tech level, refuse and we either bomb you or leave you to your dying world.

Although there is no FTL communication like Battletech, it just means information travels a little slower. You raid a system, chances are some civilian ship or X-boat will jump out before the system can be entirely locked down, and thus word gets out you hit the system. Battletech in its new Dark Age (i.e. no FTL HPG system) seems to be heading to the same paradigm of news travelling at the speed of jump.

Hard Times states the safes stay safe though at the cost of often increased law levels reflecting increased draconian policing and rationing. The question is what would happen if the time went on (minus Virus). A period of consolidation and rebuilding would occur. I would not expect to see any full scale warfare break out again between the factions for some time, even if nominally they still hold to their ideological positions. The idealists and the fanatics were the most aggressive (Dulinor and Lucan). Once they personally are gone, their successors may be more pragmatic and focus on rebuilding their power bases first. Margaret (or her successor) might fare the best in this rebuilding phase.

A player campaign in this time period could see the players acting a bit like conquistadors in going out to re-explore and reclaim the lost territories.

 

[aramis]

The problem with battle fleets in Traveller is that, as designed, they can barely operate more than 2 jumps past the supply line, and the supply lines are what's broken with black war tactics.

And that's WITH tenders...

A large J4 tender is around 30% payload (Bridge, drives, and fuel alone are 2+2+5+8+40+4=53%; now add crew...). So you HAVE to frontier refuel, and you have to carry ammo, at a hull penalty of x3.3...

if you can frontier refuel, you can use tenders to get about 3-4 jumps of J4... but you're looking at very limited endurance when you do.

You can add recharges (1 ton = 150 person-weeks) to the LS, but you can't carry too much missile ammo.

And CT HG doesn't give us a concrete battery-rounds figure... MT does, and it's not happy; the rough rate is 1% the tonnage of the bay per battery-round for that bay... note that CT presumed 3 rounds of fire in the launcher... I'd recommend keeping that assumption for missile bays... even so, capital ships need lots of tonnage of support with frontier refueling...

But a freighter load of ball bearings can make frontier refuelling risky... half the load into highly inclined equitorials, the other half in polar.... and that world is now filled with dangerous impactors at relatively low costs.

 

[Iracundus]

The problem with battle fleets in Traveller is that, as designed, they can barely operate more than 2 jumps past the supply line, and the supply lines are what's broken with black war tactics.

And that's WITH tenders...

A large J4 tender is around 30% payload (Bridge, drives, and fuel alone are 2+2+5+8+40+4=53%; now add crew...). So you HAVE to frontier refuel, and you have to carry ammo, at a hull penalty of x3.3...

if you can frontier refuel, you can use tenders to get about 3-4 jumps of J4... but you're looking at very limited endurance when you do.

You can add recharges (1 ton = 150 person-weeks) to the LS, but you can't carry too much missile ammo.

And CT HG doesn't give us a concrete battery-rounds figure... MT does, and it's not happy; the rough rate is 1% the tonnage of the bay per battery-round for that bay... note that CT presumed 3 rounds of fire in the launcher... I'd recommend keeping that assumption for missile bays... even so, capital ships need lots of tonnage of support with frontier refueling...

But a freighter load of ball bearings can make frontier refuelling risky... half the load into highly inclined equitorials, the other half in polar.... and that world is now filled with dangerous impactors at relatively low costs.

Which is why I think fleet combat post Hard Times between the states won't occur for a long time. All sides would have to reclaim lost systems and extend their supply lines before you could have anything like the fleet on fleet battles of yore. Everyone's mutual exhaustion creates a stable equilibrium at least for the short to medium term. Whether one calls that a continuation of the Rebellion or an alternative New Era, I think it would be a sustainable situation for a setting.

Privateering by lone ships or small groups might exist perhaps. Hijack traders and freighters and force them to divert their cargo to the worlds your faction is rebuilding rather than to the enemy's.

 

[aramis]

Which is why I think fleet combat post Hard Times between the states won't occur for a long time. All sides would have to reclaim lost systems and extend their supply lines before you could have anything like the fleet on fleet battles of yore. Everyone's mutual exhaustion creates a stable equilibrium at least for the short to medium term. Whether one calls that a continuation of the Rebellion or an alternative New Era, I think it would be a sustainable situation for a setting.

Privateering by lone ships or small groups might exist perhaps. Hijack traders and freighters and force them to divert their cargo to the worlds your faction is rebuilding rather than to the enemy's.

I concur, in principle. But with the caveat that, if Lucan is still drawing sucrose into braincells and spouting orders, there will be no peace near the central remnant.

Then again, My avvie is the 1120 map...

 

[Iracundus]

I concur, in principle. But with the caveat that, if Lucan is still drawing sucrose into braincells and spouting orders, there will be no peace near the central remnant.

Then again, My avvie is the 1120 map...

I think you mean glucose, rather than sucrose. But yes, Lucan is the stereotypical black hat mad emperor, which is why IMTU he would eventually have to go. He was so black hat he was a cardboard cutout.

I could imagine a scenario where after narrowly pushing back Dulinor's Coronation Fleet, Lucan demands an immediate counteroffensive even though his admirals know that to be impossible. Faced with death if they refuse or death if they fail to produce the impossible, one of them decides they might as well risk it and surprisingly succeeds in killing Lucan. Meanwhile the idealist Dulinor maybe dies of natural causes after his last gamble fails. With only broken dreams, he wastes away or dies of a heart attack.

 

[savage]

I think you mean glucose, rather than sucrose. But yes, Lucan is the stereotypical black hat mad emperor, which is why IMTU he would eventually have to go. He was so black hat he was a cardboard cutout.

I could imagine a scenario where after narrowly pushing back Dulinor's Coronation Fleet, Lucan demands an immediate counteroffensive even though his admirals know that to be impossible. Faced with death if they refuse or death if they fail to produce the impossible, one of them decides they might as well risk it and surprisingly succeeds in killing Lucan. Meanwhile the idealist Dulinor maybe dies of natural causes after his last gamble fails. With only broken dreams, he wastes away or dies of a heart attack.

Who is the successor to Lucan? Stephon would pull it back together again? I would see a tamed version of virus being a bit more interesting. Lucan and his fleet eaten by the Virus he launches against Dulinor. Both fleets become the Ghost Squadrons of the 3rd Imperium.

Isis takes over for Dulinor and the Lucan's Imperium is the Virus playground. Rebellion continues...

 

[Iracundus]

Who is the successor to Lucan? Stephon would pull it back together again? I would see a tamed version of virus being a bit more interesting. Lucan and his fleet eaten by the Virus he launches against Dulinor. Both fleets become the Ghost Squadrons of the 3rd Imperium.

Isis takes over for Dulinor and the Lucan's Imperium is the Virus playground. Rebellion continues...

Nah, Strephon has already become a discredited contender. Even if he were to somehow prove he were real, by this stage I think he would be discredited by incompetence.

I would imagine that if Lucan died, one of his admirals might lay claim through Right of Assassination (or Fleet control). Alternatively, maybe it becomes a council of admirals, a military junta. Then they would perpetuate the "Rebellion" setting of struggle against the traitor Dulinor or Isis because their claim to legitimacy rests on Lucan having been legitimate.

In case people haven't noticed, I'm not a fan of Virus.