CT Only: Wasp ship (Eurisko) controversy

[AnotherDilbert]

It just pushed to the limit may own saying that is in extreme cases when you find the flaws.

Pushing ship design to the limits is the point of TCS.
Whether it's a flaw or not is another matter.

Is not a requirement taht any component must be equal or lower in TL tahn the ship's? If so I musr reread the rules, as I clearly didn't understand them...

That is a rule, yes. In LBB5, not LBB1-3.

Basic Traveller (what is also called Prototraveller) is a whole, including LBB1-3. Saying "as this is in LBB3 doesn't apply to LBB2 is like saying, for AD&D "as this is in teh DMG doesn't apply to the PH".

That is not what I'm saying. Of course we can look at LBB1-3 as a unit, even if they were sold separately (I believe?).

The LBB1-3 rule is

Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives.

The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in general use on the world. In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt.

No ban on using higher tech in shipbuilding.

All shipyards can build any LBB2 ship, even the yard at Kinorb (Regina 0602 A663659-5) (CT S3, p20).

 

[McPerth]

That is not the LBB2 paradigm:

LBB2'81, p12:
Design and Construction
Space ships are constructed and sold at shipyards throughout the galaxy. Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives. The military procures vessels through these yards, corpor- ations buy their commercial vessels from these shipyards, and private individuals can purchase ships that they have designed through them as well. The major restriction on the purchase of ships is money.

LBB2 does not mention TL. LBB2 ships does not have TLs.

Any kind of ship does not mean Any ship...

IMHO, the explanations after that show the kind of ships are Starships and spaceships (with JD and without them), but that doesn't mean each and every class A starport may build each and any ship.

LBB2 does not mention TL. LBB2 ships does not have TLs.

But impose a minimal TL for Drives...

LBB5 imposed strict TL restrictions on LBB5 ships.

And which rules used TCS contests? AFAIK they used LBB5 rules, even if they accept for some cases (drives, crews...) the rules given in LBB2 if they will otherwise meet the ship's requirements, and using TL15 components in a TL12 ship does not.

You want better tech? Just import it!

Sure, and the ship will be considered of the imported TL (again, assuming a TL10 planet can really work TL15 components. As I said, taht's like expecting Da Vinci using a nuclear PP).

Hence, a Kinunir can be built at the Regina shipyard, whatever the local TL.

And is the Kinunir considered a TL10 ship (as the planet where it was built) or a TL 15 one (as some of its components)?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Next how do you determine the actual EPs produced by a letter drive?

The only way possible:

LBB5'80, p27-28:
Energy Points: Before installing computers or arming a ship, it is necessary to calculate the energy points available to the ship. This calculation uses the formula E=0.01MPn, where E equals the energy points available, M is the tonnage of the ship, and Pn i s the power plant number.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And which rules used TCS contests? AFAIK they used LBB5 rules, even if they accept for some cases (drives, crews...) the rules given in LBB2 if they will otherwise meet the ship's requirements,

There is no such rule in LBB1-3, you are just bending the word "requirements" to mean whatever you want.

and using TL15 components in a TL12 ship does not.

There is no such rule in LBB1-3.

And is the Kinunir considered a TL10 ship (as the planet where it was built) or a TL 15 one (as some of its components)?

With LBB2, who cares?

With LBB5 it would be an TL-15 ship, which would have to be built at a TL-15 shipyard.

 

[McPerth]

Do you use the largest hull it can fit into for that pp number or do you use the hull size it is in?
Z drive in 800t full ppN6 - EPs = 48
Z drive in 2000t hull ppN6 - EPs = 120

I guess so: 0.01m*ppn

See that if so, as the maximum PPn is 6, you cannot have an Agility 6 ship, as you cannot have PPn higher than 6 and teh EP needed for the computer will put it at 5 at maximum...

(BTW; this is anotehr flaw on EUrisko ship you showed us, as computer F needed 5 EPs, so only leaving 55 for Agility, not reaching the 60 needed for Agility 6...)

 

[mike wightman]

The only way possible:

So a Z power plant (and the others) have variable EP outputs based on the size of the hull they are in?
That makes zero sense - and yes I know it is rules as written.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So a Z power plant (and the others) have variable EP outputs based on the size of the hull they are in?
That makes zero sense - and yes I know it is rules as written.

Welcome to LBB2!

 

[McPerth]

SIDE NOTE: we’re going so fast than we ask at times whena the other one has just answered while one was writing …

AGAIN ON TOPIC:

That is a rule, yes. In LBB5, not LBB1-3.

Already answered:

And which rules used TCS contests? AFAIK they used LBB5 rules, even if they accept for some cases (drives, crews...) the rules given in LBB2 if they will otherwise meet the ship's requirements, and using TL15 components in a TL12 ship does not.

Of course we can look at LBB1-3 as a unit, even if they were sold separately (I believe?).

IIRC they were sold all together in a boxed set (unlike AD&D, BTW)

Kinorb (Regina 0602 A663659-5) (CT S3, p20).

This is a fine example to the Referee decided UWP instead of randomized, as as per tables, with Starport A and gov 5, minimum TL would be 8…

There is no such rule in LBB1-3, you are just bending the word "requirements" to mean whatever you want.

There is no such rule in LBB1-3.

With LBB2, who cares?

With LBB5 it would be an TL-15 ship, which would have to be built at a TL-15 shipyard.

And so it could be used in a LBB2 design (assuming the drives were imported) but not on a HG design, despite using some LBB2 components that don't meet the requirements, as HG rules say.

And this Eurisko design is a HG one, not a LBB2 one, Isn't it?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

See that if so, as the maximum PPn is 6, you cannot have an Agility 6 ship, as you cannot have PPn higher than 6 and teh EP needed for the computer will put it at 5 at maximum...

Yes, unless you use a small computer with no power consumption.

(BTW; this is anotehr flaw on EUrisko ship you showed us, as computer F needed 5 EPs, so only leaving 55 for Agility, not reaching the 60 needed for Agility 6...)

Yes, that is a technical flaw, but as the ship is obviously designed to always use Emergency Agility = 6, the end result is correct.

 

[McPerth]

Yes, unless you use a small computer with no power consumption.

From which book?

 

[mike wightman]

Welcome to LBB2!

There is a get out.
I build a ship at 2000t - the Z pp is generating 120EPs.
I cut the ship down to 1900 tons.

According to LBB2 rules the hull is treated as 2000t for drive performance.

So the HG formula has to use the effective hull size, 2000t, for EP production.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

IIRC they were sold all together in a boxed set (unlike AD&D, BTW)

And also sold separately, IIRC.

This is a fine example to the Referee decided UWP instead of randomized, as as per tables, with Starport A and gov 5, minimum TL would be 8…

Yes, so? Perfectly legal LBB3 world.

And so it could be used in a LBB2 design (assuming the drives were imported) but not on a HG design, despite using some LBB2 components that don't meed teh requirements, as HG rules say.

LBB5 drives use the LBB5 tech rules. LBB2 drives use LBB2 rules.

And this Eurisko design is a HG one, not a LBB2 one, Isn't it?

With a bay, it's obviously a LBB5 design. With Z-drives at TL-12. And published by GDW.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There is a get out.
I build a ship at 2000t - the Z pp is generating 120EPs.
I cut the ship down to 1900 tons.

According to LBB2 rules the hull is treated as 2000t for drive performance.

So the HG formula has to use the effective hull size, 2000t, for EP production.

LBB5 specifies actual tonnage and power plant number.

EP does not change, even if effective tonnage changes:

TCS, p14:
Drop Tanks: The disposable tank rule (Book 5, page 27) allows the construction of tanks which can be dropped from the ship. The reduced ship tonnage, combined with the higher resulting capacity of the ship's drives, can result in an increased jump number or maneuver drive number. Power plant number may increase, but it s energy point output remains the same.

The LBB2 rule is only about how to read the table:

LBB2'81, p13:
The drive potential table lists 24 standard drive types, identified by the letters A through Z (omitting I and 0 t o avoid confusion). Also listed are various tonnage levels for hulls; any tonnage which exceeds a listed level should be read at the next higher level. Correlating hull size with drive letter indicates drive potential.

Read the next column, not is that large.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

From which book?

LBB5; comp/2 or less.

LBB2 computers have no stated EP consumption, of course. By LBB2 it's perfectly legal to combine a small PP with a m/7 computer.

 

[McPerth]

So a Z power plant (and the others) have variable EP outputs based on the size of the hull they are in?
That makes zero sense - and yes I know it is rules as written.

It's even worse...

This 2000 dton ship with a Z PP would only need 60 tons of fuel to procude those 120 EPs (as it uses the LBB2 formula)

 

[McPerth]

Pushing ship design to the limits is the point of TCS.

To the limits, not through the limits…

LBB5; comp/2 or less.

But Eurisko used F(6fib) computer (if it used acomputer 2 it would have been useless in combat)

And also sold separately, IIRC.

I didn't know if so... Then the analogy with AD&D is even more right...

LBB5 drives use the LBB5 tech rules. LBB2 drives use LBB2 rules.

With a bay, it's obviously a LBB5 design. With Z-drives at TL-12.

LBB5 designs use LBB5 rules, even if those same rules allow to use the drives in LBB2, they keep being LBB5 rules and LBB5 designs.

And, as you say, Eurisko was a LBB5 design (as LBB5 allowed limited use of LBB2 rules, but the opposite was not)

And published by GDW.

And all officially published ship designs were right and legal, weren't they?

(please, don'f force me to put MT:FFSI to bear )

 

[Tobias]

I think this really boils down the fact that the LBB2 design rules make no mention of tech level limits to the drives while they do, for example, mention the tech level limits of computer - at least in passing.

And also sold separately, IIRC.

Out of curiosity, I quickly checked whether the various ships of the TL 14 alien races (Aslan, Solomani, Zhodani) in their respective alien modules conformed to the LBB3 tech limits.
To my surprise, they did. The Zhodani council cruiser, with Y-drives, is TL 15 - but considering that it is no doubt a state of the art ship and that Zhdant itself (and by inference a few other Zhodani core worlds) is TL 15, this still seems to fit.

Adhering to this rule does make almost all of the cargo ships in TTA TL 15 - the TL 14 Oberlindes cargo carrier being the exception.

 

[Tobias]

My Cr 0.02: Implement the Jump/maneuver tonnage switcheroo* on existing vessels, and stick to LBB5 for new designs.

*One notices Mongoose Traveller did the same thing, just in the other direction: Small m-drives in their version of HG. I suspect battle riders being a mostly taboo topic has something to do with that.

 

[McPerth]

Another curiosity about the Wasp is that I guess the MD and PP slots should show a 6, not a Z, even if they use LBB2 drives. Otherwise, how can you know if an A in the PP slot means 10 or an LBB2 A PP?

It’s also curious he used Z drives, when X ones should be enough to give it performance 6 and saving some tonnage and money. The only reason for that in LBB would be to make them more resilient to damage, needing 3 hits for performance to be downgraded, but this does not apply to HG:

HG80, page 49

EXPLANATION OF DAMAGE RESULTS:
(…)
Maneuver-n: The USP maneuver factor is reduced by the indicated amount.
(…)
Power-n: The USP power plant factor is reduced by the indicated amount.

As factor is the number, they will nonetheless be downgraded with a single hit.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Another curiosity about the Wasp is that I guess the MD and PP slots should show a 6, not a Z, even if they use LBB2 drives. Otherwise, how can you know if an A in the PP slot means 10 or an LBB2 A PP?

Agreed, it should have been a "6" in the USP. Does not affect whether it's a valid design.

It’s also curious he used Z drives, when X ones should be enough to give it performance 6 and saving some tonnage and money. The only reason for that in LBB would be to make them more resilient to damage, needing 3 hits for performance to be downgraded, but this does not apply to HG:

No point in LBB5 that I can see. Obviously still a valid design to have a slightly larger drive.

I can only speculate that the "AI" software originally designed it at a larger size, or perhaps with drop tanks as the other ships in the fleet.