Weapon Specialties

[DickNervous]

As we go along our merry way in the adventure I am running and I expand the range of items that I toss at the players I have come to realize that there seems to be something of a disconnect in what specialty is required for weapons and what the options were when characters were generated.

Skills 1-8 are from the Core Rulebook, 9-11 are from Book 01: Mercenary. I did not see any other Gun Combat or Heavy Weapon skills in any of the other books (Books 02-10).

1. (GC) Slug Rifle
2. (GC) Slug Pistol
3. (GC) Shotgun
4. (GC) Energy Rifle
5. (GC) Energy Pistol
6. (HW) Launchers
7. (HW) Man Portable Artillery
8. (HW) Field Artillery
9. (GC) Slug Carbine
10. (GC) Zero-G Weapons
11. (HW) Flamethrower

But when looking through the Central Supply Catalog you find weapons that state they require skills such as:

• (GC) Laser Carbine
• (GC) Laser Rifle
• (GC) Neural Weapons
• (HW) Energy Weapons
• (HW) Autocannon
• Athletics, Thrown (Archaic Weapons)
• Athletics, Bows (Archaic Weapons)
• Athletics, Crossbows (Archaic Weapons)
• Athletics, Sling (Archaic Weapons)

But none of those skills exist to learn anywhere, so how would a player use them effectively?

Additionally, there is a list of pretty cool weapons in Special Supplement 2: Deadly Assassins, but none of them list what skill is required for them. Anyone know what they should be? If you have never seen that book the weapons are:

• Adv. Laser Pistol (Energy Pistol?)
• Blaster Rifle (Energy Rifle? Slug Rifle?)
• Flame Pistol (Flamethrower or Energy Pistol?)
• Ionised Rail Rifle (Slug Rifle? It's like a silenced Gauss Rifle)
• Laser Assault Cannon (Heavy Weapons?)
• Magrail Blaster (Plasma + magrail....)
• Neural Disruptor (no idea)
• Pocket Rocket Launcher (Launchers?)

 

[Shonner]

The Central Supply Catalogue is a yellow-titled book. So its use is for generic adventuring outside of Traveller. The referee needs to decide how to assign the new skills to player characters. If players really want their characters to use certain equipment from the book, change their career template so that it includes chances of gaining such skills that are required. Or make totally new career templates.

 

[Cryton]

Lets see, according to the descriptions of the various skills themselves in the MgT rulebook, I'd go with the following skills for the following weapons:

Adv. Laser pistol (GC Energy Pistol)
Blaster Rifle (GC Energy Rifle)
Flame Pistol (HW Flamethrower)
Ionised Rail Rifle (GC Slug Rifle)
Laser Assault Cannon (HW Field Artillery)
Magrail Blaster (HW Man Portable Artillery)
Neural Disruptor (GC Energy Rifle or Pistol, depending on the type)
Pocket Rocket Launcher (HW Launchers)

As for the following, I'd use the following skills based on the items description and the skill Specialty description in the MgT rule book:

(GC) Laser Carbine use (GC Energy Rifles)
(GC) Laser Rifle use (GC Energy Rifles)
(GC) Neural Weapons use (GC Energy Rifles or Pistols depending on type)
(HW) Energy Weapons use (HW Field Artillery for Fixed Guns, HW Man Portable Artillery for man portable guns)
(HW) Autocannon use (HW Field Artillery)

As for Archaic Weapons, according to other editions of Traveller, Archaic Weapons is either a Specialty of Gun Combat skill or Athletics. Sadly they are not covered by either skill in the current MgT. How I handle it in my own games is to give it to players as an additional Specialty for Gun Combat Skill.

Of course, none of that is an official ruling, just the fixes I made when I ran across the issue myself. Hope it helps.

~Cryton

 

[DickNervous]

The Central Supply Catalogue is a yellow-titled book. So its use is for generic adventuring outside of Traveller.

I always wondered what the different color titles meant. Is that information published somewhere?

The referee needs to decide how to assign the new skills to player characters. If players really want their characters to use certain equipment from the book, change their career template so that it includes chances of gaining such skills that are required. Or make totally new career templates.

Going forward I will simply add some more options for those that get the Gun Combat, Heavy Weapons, and Athletics skills. For the existing characters I will either have to "stretch" the existing skills to cover any of the unlisted ones or possibly give them the option to change their specialty if there is something they really want that fits from a role play perspective.

Lets see, according to the descriptions of the various skills themselves in the MgT rulebook, I'd go with the following skills for the following weapons:

Adv. Laser pistol (GC Energy Pistol)
Blaster Rifle (GC Energy Rifle)
Flame Pistol (HW Flamethrower)
Ionised Rail Rifle (GC Slug Rifle)
Laser Assault Cannon (HW Field Artillery)
Magrail Blaster (HW Man Portable Artillery)
Neural Disruptor (GC Energy Rifle or Pistol, depending on the type)
Pocket Rocket Launcher (HW Launchers)

To me "Field Artillery" is more for indirect fire weapons (mortars, howitzers, rockets, etc), so I think the Laser Assault Cannon (which the description stats is "barely man portable") should go under Man Portable Artillery. And the Neural Disruptor states that it creates a "field" so that would be "Energy Pistol".

As for the following, I'd use the following skills based on the items description and the skill Specialty description in the MgT rule book:

(GC) Laser Carbine use (GC Energy Rifles)
(GC) Laser Rifle use (GC Energy Rifles)
(GC) Neural Weapons use (GC Energy Rifles or Pistols depending on type)
(HW) Energy Weapons use (HW Field Artillery for Fixed Guns, HW Man Portable Artillery for man portable guns)
(HW) Autocannon use (HW Field Artillery)

As for Archaic Weapons, according to other editions of Traveller, Archaic Weapons is either a Specialty of Gun Combat skill or Athletics. Sadly they are not covered by either skill in the current MgT. How I handle it in my own games is to give it to players as an additional Specialty for Gun Combat Skill.

I think I will lump the Bows, Crossbows, etc under Athletics: Co-ordination for now, but for future characters I will add the "new" specialties to Gun Combat, Heavy Weapons, and Athletics.

This does help a lot. Thank you both for the replies. I was mainly wondering if I had missed something somewhere, but apparently I haven't. Thanks!

 

[Dagrill]

Skills 1-8 are from the Core Rulebook, 9-11 are from Book 01: Mercenary. I did not see any other Gun Combat or Heavy Weapon skills in any of the other books (Books 02-10).

1. (GC) Slug Rifle
2. (GC) Slug Pistol
3. (GC) Shotgun
4. (GC) Energy Rifle
5. (GC) Energy Pistol
6. (HW) Launchers
7. (HW) Man Portable Artillery
8. (HW) Field Artillery
9. (GC) Slug Carbine
10. (GC) Zero-G Weapons
11. (HW) Flamethrower

[/LIST]

Hi,

I tend to simplify, so I don't have a separate Carbine skill, but treat it as Rifle, also if you have zero G weapons I allow you to use Laser weapons, as they are also non-recoil, in fact I tend to equip my (Space) Marines with Laser Carbines rather than Snub SMG's.

Regards

David

 

[GypsyComet]

The Central Supply Catalogue is a yellow-titled book. So its use is for generic adventuring outside of Traveller.

Outside of The Third Imperium setting.

While other editions hold with the setting and rules being synonymous, Mongoose explicitly separates them. Book with the "Third Imperium" tag on the cover are explicitly part of the setting. Black cover books, with the exception of Library data, are "generic". This does NOT mean that, as a group, they are not useful within the Third Imperium setting, only that they are not bound by it.

That said, Robots is pretty much a non-Imperial book. High Guard and Mercenary are mostly applicable (as counter examples), but CSC is only about half Imperial applicable if prior editions' tech examples are any guide. It also replaces most of the weapon rules from the core book, and as such should be treated as a sanctioned variant (on par with using AHL or Striker rules in Classic instead of straight Book 1). Mix it with the core book with caution.

 

[DickNervous]

CSC is only about half Imperial applicable if prior editions' tech examples are any guide. It also replaces most of the weapon rules from the core book, and as such should be treated as a sanctioned variant (on par with using AHL or Striker rules in Classic instead of straight Book 1). Mix it with the core book with caution.

The CSC does state in the intro that many things in it have never been documented before and stuff like that. So yeah, it's not exactly the Sears Catalog. There is quite a bit of stuff that is TL 14+ that would be difficult to fit into the OTU.

However, while the "Rules and Background" section of the CSC goes into pretty good detail about the different tech levels and how to create items, covers what types of weapons and armor may be prohibited at certain law levels, and covers things like hacking computers, electronic warfare, and artillery combat, I don't see how it "replaces most of the weapon rules"?

Any of the weapons and armor I have looked at in the CSC which are also in other books (Core, Mercenary, etc) are the same across books. They do have much more variety in the CSC for any particular category, but other than the fact that they added skills that aren't anywhere else, I don't see how they changed rules. One simple example is with blade weapons. The Core has a Dagger and CSC adds a Stiletto. Both 1d6+2, but the stiletto has less heft and cost 5x as much. Of course they add some pretty wild stuff at the higher tech levels like the Monofilament Sword.

All that said though, I understand how you have to be careful, particularly with the higher tech level stuff, to make sure it doesn't throw things out of balance. My primary way of handling that is to upgrade the "bad guys" to have similar equipment if necessary.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

the CSC contains a lot of items that don't really fit into the OTU, but a GM may want to use if he is running some other setting. To name but some of the more prominent examples, it contains Splinter weaponry form warhammer 40,000's dark Eldar, and the Mauler shot-pistol form the HALO game series.

my advise is that any MgT book that does NOT have the words "third imperium" stamped on the front of it are to be treated as "non canon" options and extras that do not need to conform to the OTU as it is understood. Feel free to cherry pick whatever parts you fancy.

I personally don't like the extra skill trees that much, so I just ignore them and assign suitable ones form the core book (all carbines become rifle, for example)

 

[GypsyComet]

I personally don't like the extra skill trees that much, so I just ignore them and assign suitable ones form the core book (all carbines become rifle, for example)

I think Mongoose Matt was looking seriously at pruning the Gun Combat tree already.

 

[DickNervous]

I think Mongoose Matt was looking seriously at pruning the Gun Combat tree already.

That would be nice. My 2 cents would be to limit it to:

• (GC) Slug Pistol
• (GC) Slug Rifle
• (GC) Shotgun
• (GC) Energy Pistol
• (GC) Energy Rifle
• (GC) Zero-G Weapons
• (HW) Launchers
• (HW) Man Portable
• (HW) Direct Fire
• (HW) Indirect Fire
• (HW) Flamethrowers

You can fit everything in those categories. Then the Archaic Weapons (Bow, Crossbow, etc) would be Athletics: Co-Ordination or Dexterity.

 

[whulorigan]

I think Mongoose Matt was looking seriously at pruning the Gun Combat tree already.

That would be nice. My 2 cents would be to limit it to:

• (GC) Slug Pistol
• (GC) Slug Rifle
• (GC) Shotgun
• (GC) Energy Pistol
• (GC) Energy Rifle
• (GC) Zero-G Weapons
• (HW) Launchers
• (HW) Man Portable
• (HW) Direct Fire
• (HW) Indirect Fire
• (HW) Flamethrowers

You can fit everything in those categories. Then the Archaic Weapons (Bow, Crossbow, etc) would be Athletics: Co-Ordination or Dexterity.

When we had been discussing it before with Matt, the issue came up as to where to put Sub-Machine Gun, as that is distinctly different in handling from Rifles, Pistols, or Shotguns (We had suggested a category "PDW" - Personal Defense Weapon, for this), and we had also noted concerning energy-weapons that handing a zero-recoil laser weapon is very different from handling an HE-Plasma/Fusion Weapon.

The issue became one of how granular do you want the system to be? Do skills represent broad areas of training and expertise, or do they represent specific specialties?

For example, if you choose "Energy Rifle" as a broad skill encompassing all rifle-type weapons that are energy based, then you need to justify skills as representing broad experience with many different types of energy weapons, each of which are quite different from one another (but that the person has had exposure to most/all of them as part of his professional background training with that particular skill).

OTOH, having skills be more specific may give a more "realistic" feel, but the problem then becomes that a character needs to spend many terms in CharGen in order to get all of the skills he ought to have for his professional background experience.

One way to "compromise" as a House Rule is to have a character pick a specific weapon category under a given skill as a specialization, and have all other weapons that belong to that skill (but that are not his specialty) be at skill-level minus 1. (e.g. [Energy-Rifle {Laser}-2] would grant level 2 skill with laser-rifles and level 1 skill with all other energy rifle weapon systems).

And, of course, any skills that you deem somewhat "exotic" you could rule as being its own unique separate skill in its own right.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I think Mongoose Matt was looking seriously at pruning the Gun Combat tree already.

We did indeed - this has been covered in the second edition Book 1: Mercenary.

Basically, we now just have Gun Combat (energy) and (slug), with an option to put shortarm/longarm after either. Heavy Weapons breaks down into man portable, artillery and vehicle.

Makes things way easier!

Hope that helps!

 

[McPerth]

and we had also noted concerning energy-weapons that handing a zero-recoil laser weapon is very different from handling an HE-Plasma/Fusion Weapon.

In fact, I see the use of PGMP/FGMP more in the field of HW (man portable) tan in GC, as they are support weapons (at least until de advent of the plasma rifle).

 

[samuelvss]

We did indeed - this has been covered in the second edition Book 1: Mercenary.

Basically, we now just have Gun Combat (energy) and (slug), with an option to put shortarm/longarm after either. Heavy Weapons breaks down into man portable, artillery and vehicle.

Makes things way easier!

Hope that helps!

This is indeed simpler. I like the idea, however, of having weapons skills that are more specific, overlain on the above.

If I have grown up on a TL5 world, using an internal magazine-fed bolt action rifle for 20 years of active military service with which I am very proficient, I would presumably have Gun Combat (Slug Rifle) of some level. I would be able to, with only the most rudimentary instruction, take a modern rifle with a removable box magazine, and quite proficiently put semi-auto fire downrange. I would, however, likely been downright dangerous with a guass rifle on auto-fire.

Thus, having GC(SR), would allow me to pick up any slug rifle, and use it. Adding a GC(Auto Weapons) would additionally allow me to fire any slug rifle proficiently on a full-auto or burst. Further, GC(Auto Weapons) would allow me to use a submachinegun. GC(Energy Rifle) would seem to call for a GC(Laser Rifle), which would include Laser Carbines, but not the high energy cousins, with recoil and big explosions.

This is an approach that is homegrown, but addresses what I see as an-simplification. The over-simplification, however, is a great improvement over the CT LBB's impractical and unrealistic over-specialization.

 

[McPerth]

This is indeed simpler. I like the idea, however, of having weapons skills that are more specific, overlain on the above.

If I have grown up on a TL5 world, using an internal magazine-fed bolt action rifle for 20 years of active military service with which I am very proficient, I would presumably have Gun Combat (Slug Rifle) of some level. I would be able to, with only the most rudimentary instruction, take a modern rifle with a removable box magazine, and quite proficiently put semi-auto fire downrange. I would, however, likely been downright dangerous with a guass rifle on auto-fire.

Thus, having GC(SR), would allow me to pick up any slug rifle, and use it. Adding a GC(Auto Weapons) would additionally allow me to fire any slug rifle proficiently on a full-auto or burst. Further, GC(Auto Weapons) would allow me to use a submachinegun. GC(Energy Rifle) would seem to call for a GC(Laser Rifle), which would include Laser Carbines, but not the high energy cousins, with recoil and big explosions.

This is an approach that is homegrown, but addresses what I see as an-simplification. The over-simplification, however, is a great improvement over the CT LBB's impractical and unrealistic over-specialization.

In MT skills were assumed to be for the TL you were trained in, with penalties when using different TL stuff. Maybe this will be used as a house rule if you want to represent that...

 

[DickNervous]

One way to "compromise" as a House Rule is to have a character pick a specific weapon category under a given skill as a specialization, and have all other weapons that belong to that skill (but that are not his specialty) be at skill-level minus 1. (e.g. [Energy-Rifle {Laser}-2] would grant level 2 skill with laser-rifles and level 1 skill with all other energy rifle weapon systems).

And, of course, any skills that you deem somewhat "exotic" you could rule as being its own unique separate skill in its own right.

I really like that idea! Someone who has "Slug Rifle - 2" would definitely be able to use a "Slug Pistol", just not as well, so having them be at "Slug Pistol - 1" would make perfect sense.

We did indeed - this has been covered in the second edition Book 1: Mercenary.

Basically, we now just have Gun Combat (energy) and (slug), with an option to put shortarm/longarm after either. Heavy Weapons breaks down into man portable, artillery and vehicle.

Makes things way easier!

Hope that helps!

That is way easier! Thanks!

Thank you everyone for your input! Now I have plenty of ideas on how to handle this stuff.

 

[Cryton]

That would be nice. My 2 cents would be to limit it to:

• (GC) Slug Pistol
• (GC) Slug Rifle
• (GC) Shotgun
• (GC) Energy Pistol
• (GC) Energy Rifle
• (GC) Zero-G Weapons
• (HW) Launchers
• (HW) Man Portable
• (HW) Direct Fire
• (HW) Indirect Fire
• (HW) Flamethrowers

You can fit everything in those categories. Then the Archaic Weapons (Bow, Crossbow, etc) would be Athletics: Co-Ordination or Dexterity.

I'd say add (GC) SMG -they really are that different, and (GC) Archaic- for muzzle loaders and Black Powder weapons, and your list is, at least for my thoughts, complete.

 

[McPerth]

I really like that idea! Someone who has "Slug Rifle - 2" would definitely be able to use a "Slug Pistol", just not as well, so having them be at "Slug Pistol - 1" would make perfect sense.

See that with RAWm a character taht has Slug Rifle -2 has all other GC skills at 0, so he can use a Slug pistol, just not as well, as you say (and, for what's worth, he can also use lasers, shotguns and zero G weapons at the same level that slug pistols, unless he has developed it too).

I'd say add (GC) SMG -they really are that different, and (GC) Archaic- for muzzle loaders and Black Powder weapons, and your list is, at least for my thoughts, complete.

I disagree in adding archaic to GC, as this will give the skill at level 0 to anyone that has GC, and I guess most soldiers would not know even how to load a muzzle loader safely...

MgT Mercenary adds archery to atlethics (making all long distance runners, jugglers, weight lifters and probably even dancers proficient with bows :CoW, but I'm not sure where muzzle loaders go. I guess they should be a diferent skill, or if added to GC as you say, then modifiers for different TL, as in MT, are (IMHO) a must.

 

[simonh]

MgT Mercenary adds archery to atlethics (making all long distance runners, jugglers, weight lifters and probably even dancers proficient with bows :CoW, but I'm not wure where muzzle loaders go. I guess they should be a diferent skill, or if added to GC as you say, then modifiers for different TL, as in MT, are (IMHO) a must.

I don't think that's the right way to look at it. I think what it means is that anyone with good athletic ability can be handy at Archery if they chose to, and there's no particular obstacle in the rules to them doing so.

Edit: The following is a general statement of my opinion on this, and is not specifically aimed at McPerth. It's basically a summary of my statements on this when the issue was raised during the development of Merc 2ed.

For every specific instance of certain people being more heavily specialised in this or that weapon due to some personal circumstances, I can come up with just as many valid examples of why a space pilot might be only proficient in a single model of spacecraft, or an engineer might only know how to maintain a single type of drive or power plant. That doesn't mean it's sensible to split Pilot or Engineering into a couple of dozen specialisations each.

If you want to have a particular PC or NPC that is specialised in particular weapons, nobody will stop you. On the other hand, a highly fragmented weapons specialisation skill system is a serious obstacle to creating a character that is reasonably proficient in a range of similar weapons.

From my practical experience I've found that many of the basic pricinples of marksmanship are highly transferrable between firearms. It might take many months of practice to get good at shooting, but once you're skilled at one firearm, getting proficient in another takes drastically less time, less than a tenth as long. That tells me they are basically the same skill in game terms. In fact many of the specific things you learn to shoot effectively in combat have little or nothing to do with the weapon at all. They're about situational awareness, judging distances and movement, leading the target, shooting in rhythm with your breathing, building the habits around keeping track of remaining shots, remembering to apply safeties and cock the weapon, regardles of the specifics of how you do that on any particular 'shooting tool'. The skill you're learning is firearms combat, the specific implement you use to do that is just one of many factors in being effective.

Simon Hibbs

 

[RandyB]

I'd port over from "Alternate Guns Specialties and Techniques". Even though it's GURPS, thus the resolution granularity is 3d6, the basic principles apply, IMO.