Weapons aboard ship?

[rancke]

I try to avoid in-game features that are too all-encompassing. Uusally, if I want an Imperial regulation to further a plot, I make it one that was imposed by the local duke. That way, it may not apply in the next duchy over. But some rules would, logically, be Imperium-wide. This, I think, would be one of them.

Which passengers, if any, are legally allowed to carry weapons aboard commercial ships?

At first blush this would seem to be a no-brainer. Obviously the captain can refuse to carry passengers who insist on keeping their weapons. But this is an empire where nobles are allowed (required?) to carry ceremonial automatics when having an audience with the Emperor. Obviously thier attitude to weapons are not the same as that of heads of state on Earth today. So maybe the attitude towards anti-hijack measures are not the same either. Are there any Imperial edicts requiring passengers ships licensed for commercial activity inside the Imperium to allow certain Imperial officials to keep their weapons aboard ship? For all we know, allowing those sturdy, trustworthy Imperial military types to carry weapons may be thought of as an anti-hijacking measure.

So are Imperial nobles (and their bodyguards) allowed to keep their weapons? Does it make a difference if they're high nobles or not?

What about:

Imperial military officers?
Ministry of Justice agents?
Scouts?
Imperial bureaucrats?
Imperial diplomats?
Megacorporate managers?
Megacorporate goons (sorry, bodyguards)?
Member state diplomats, military, bureaucrats, LEOs, bigwigs?
Aslan males?
Anyone else you can think of that might merit special consideration?


Hans

 

[boomslang]

So are Imperial nobles (and their bodyguards) allowed to keep their weapons?

There is something in the CT Library Data LBB essays on Nobility about Knights who are members of orders designated "Defenders of the Realm" being obligated to carry arms at all times. Bear in mind that the right to bear arms is traditionally explicitly bestowed during the knighting ceremony -- bearing arms in defense of the nobility is why the peerage exists in the first place.

ISTR that it was his position as head of his Domain's Order that authorized Dulinor (for example) to carry a revolver in the presence of the Emperor, rather than it being some privilege of his Archducal rank. I would hypothesize that nobility only go about armed during active hostilities or if the rules of knighthood require/permit it on a per-case basis; otherwise, armed knights serve as their bodyguards while the nobles (especially those of the OTU) disdain directly sullying their hands with the blood of others.

As to shipboard weapons, with the exception of the special circumstances depicted in CT's Safari Ship adventure, most vessel masters will not want passengers to have access to ship-hijacking, hull-holing weaponry during a voyage -- hence the popularity of the Snub Pistol as the "standard shipboard defensive weapon" and all that... Anti-Hijack, due to its bypassable nature, should be relied upon solely as a last resort, not a first line of security.

As a matter of routine, a commercial ship's Purser will otherwise confiscate weaponry from passengers and secure it in the Ship's Locker when possible, and the Cargo Bay (to which passengers will not have unsupervised access during the voyage) if it is too large & bulky.

Imperial personnel traveling aboard government vessels will retain their arms at the discretion of the vessel's commander -- bearing in mind the political nature of the 3I, the negotiations of such accommodations should present an excellent opportunity for role-playing.

 

[Altoman5]

I would imagine that the Captain of the ship have the final say whether to allow certain passengers to keep their weapons or confiscate them. If the Captain is very strict about confiscating weapons it can create conflict allowing some good opportunities for gameplay.

 

[rancke]

I would imagine that the Captain of the ship have the final say whether to allow certain passengers to keep their weapons or confiscate them. If the Captain is very strict about confiscating weapons it can create conflict allowing some good opportunities for gameplay.

See, that's the thing. That's what we 21st Century Westerners would imagine, but why should that automatically be the case? Do you think the captain of an Age of Sail East Indiaman could tell the gentlemen sailing on his ship to let him lock up their swords and pistols? Or, at least, that he would ever dream of doing any such thing? And that's for civilians. What about officers of the King's Army? The Governor-elect of Bombay?


Hans

 

[Vargas]

Perhaps select individuals are permitted to retain personal* weapons for purposes of self defense, ones which are loaded with rounds which pose no hazard to the ship or innocent bystanders. I'm thinking of the kinds of ammo US Air Marshalls carry while aboard aircraft. It meets the intent of law and/or tradition while keeping safety in mind.

*In other words, no "ceremonial FGMPs".

 

[Garyius2003]

I think the Imperium wide rules are who the lines CAN'T disarm. Military officers, knights, agents...

The Imperium, the one I like to play, lets the lines/captains decide who else they want to collect weapons from.

 

[aramis]

I recall that the 3I allows knights and nobles to retain a bladed weapon.

I allow IMTU serving military a sidearm on duty; for enlisted, a small melee weapon, for officers, a large blade or a pistol. On watch guards might have SMGs.

Off duty officers travelling civil passages may keep a small blade.

Captains may allow more, but generally, can be held liable for the laws of their port of registry. A ship is by (long standing) legal fiction an extension of the country/world of registry.

 

[Hemdian]

I think it’s reasonable to expect that anything which could pose a gross physical danger to the ship is normally secured in the hold for the duration of the trip. However, melee weapons and most smallarms don’t fall into that category.

The threat to a ship from passengers with smallarms falls into two types: random hothead violence, and deliberate hijacking. I think that the risk of hijacking is relatively small ... there is a lot more to a successful hijacking than merely taking the ship, so there is the deterrence of simple practicality. As for hotheadedness, remember that PCs are abnormal (many behave in ways that could be classified as clinically insane) and thus cannot be used as a benchmark.

So then it becomes a question as to what is Imperial culture. Does it feature 20th/21st century paranoia that dictates that passengers are not only disarmed of weapons but stripped of anything that might be used as a weapon? Does it allow arms but have some Victorian era style gentleman’s code of honour, where it is considered uncivilised to brandish your service revolver in public? Or is it Wild West style, where everyone is armed and skilled in quickdraw?

IMTU 3I culture in the core is not dissimilar to that displayed in Agatha Christie’s Poirot, and on the frontier it ‘degenerates’ into something similar to the Firefly TV series. Thus there is rarely a need to disarm the passengers (most will behave themselves).

Remember that one of the six attributes of the UPP is SOC? There is more to SOC than just “does my character have a title?”

 

[Icosahedron]

IMATU, commercial passengers are required to hand over anything designed primarily as a weapon (guns, daggers, batons, etc) and any 'offensive implement' (they can carry a manicure set, swiss army knife or a small pair of scissors without any problem, but might find it difficult to justify their need for a serrated kitchen knife or chainsaw aboard ship).

Members of His Majesty's armed forces on active duty, bearing orders for such, may carry arms incapable of seriously harming the ship, and anyone (such as agents) bearing a Warrant of Arms may do likewise.

In both cases, the passengers effectively have Imperial permission to bear arms in public.

IMTU, rather than being an extension of their port of registry, commercial ships are an extension of the Imperial Capital - they are part of the extrality and Imperial Law governs. All commercial ports and ships IMTU are LL9+ in order to prevent damage to expensive collateral and to the economy of the realm.

Private ships are a different matter and the captain decides. However, a private captain refusing tranport for a representative of His Majesty or refusing to recognise a Warrant of Arms could find himself in contempt of the Crown...

 

[rancke]

I think the Imperium wide rules are who the lines CAN'T disarm. Military officers, knights, agents...

So do I. I was going for a discussion of who those people would be and what the details would be.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I recall that the 3I allows knights and nobles to retain a bladed weapon.

Can you recall where you saw that?


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

Some thoughts. As usual, they are off the top of my head, so feel free to shred them.

- Here in the US, what passengers are allowed to carry changed drastically from the 1990's.

So I think the answer may depend on what time period your playing in and even what part of the empire.

- Even if there is an empire wide standard, local sectors and even sub sectors might have their own laws that modify what is allowed.

- Some people may feel that if weapons are allowed it can decrease the chance of hijacking.

Restricting weapons on board only means that the hijackers need to obtain weapons that won't be detected or work with just one crew member to get some weapons onto the ship or... this list of ways to get your hands on weapons can get quite long.

But, Lets say passengers are allowed to have weapons and passengers A and B try to hijack the ship. They not only have to contend with the crew but also Passengers C, D, E, F and so on, that have weapons and can help the crew.

- I'm not up on my Imperial business law, but think there may be a difference between how a Mega Corp liner with an Imperial Charter handles things and how an independent, privately operated Free Trader does.

- Some people may be granted a right to bear arms. However, they may not have the right to demand passage. o: So while a captain may be required to allow a certain person to carry arms, they also may have the right to decide who to let on their ship and might be able to say "Find another ship going your way sir, or hand over your weapons"

- The larger the ship, the larger the crew and security staff. The less likely a few people with legitimate reason to carry arms could take over.

- On a small ship, the noble, group of diplomats or whoever might contract to be the only passengers and negotiate the terms, including allowed weapons.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

In most cases, VIPs would have their own transport, so this wouldn't come up.

Nobles and senior military officers (and/or their bodyguards) would be allowed discreet weapons, 'cos you can trust them, right?

Anyone else has to hand them over.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

An Imperial Warrant pretty much gives carte blanche to the carrying of any weapon short of a tacnuke.

 

[kafka47]

As Starships are the wagontrains and stagecoaches (and sometimes the Steam Locomotive) to the Stars. I could some restrictions on firearms but it would be the discretion of the individual captain (ie the Referee) but essentially whatever you decide is the nominal law level of the Imperium...(I set MTU at 5) then there you have it. Naturally, Captains would post warnings to Travellers if they were going to go to a Low/Higher Law Level world in which the ship might be registered...and hence add another layer of bureaucratic complexity the decision.

 

[aramis]

An Imperial Warrant pretty much gives carte blanche to the carrying of any weapon short of a tacnuke.

No, anything you can get your hands on if think you can justify it to the boss.... or beyond, but then you risk being sent to hell worlds with minimal equipment for the rest of your days....

The bearer of a warrant acts in loco imperialis. He speaks in voce imperialis. You say no, and odds are good he can have you shot, and if he shoots you himself, no one can really do much about it without grave risk of massive overreaction by the establishment.

 

[rancke]

An Imperial Warrant pretty much gives carte blanche to the carrying of any weapon short of a tacnuke.

An Imperial Warrant gives the authority to order anything it would be legal for the Emperor to order (Well, an unlimited one does; most warrants are hedged with various limitations). It's not a Get Out Of Jail Free card like the one the Cardinal gave Mylady in The Three Musketeers.

In any case, I'm hoping to figure out the rules for ordinary people, not Imperial warrant holders.


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

In any case, I'm hoping to figure out the rules for ordinary people, not Imperial warrant holders.
Hans

Unfortunately, the trivia of OTU law is beyond me, but I would suggest that, in a logical universe, most ships and starports have a blanket LL which is effectively the LL of the 'Empire Between the Stars'. IMTU that's LL9+, in another poster's TU above, that's LL5. The blanket LL will determine what is allowed aboard ship without official waivers. Private captains will be encouraged to toe the party line. How much encouragement they are given probably depends on the value of that LL.

 

[aramis]

Can you recall where you saw that?


Hans

It's not just Knights and Nobles...

TTB p51, lc, ¶1: "Passengers are required to check all weapons (except blades and daggers) into the ship's locker; they are returned at the end of the voyage"

Also in Bk2('81) p5, ¶8, same exact text.

In S11, I found an odd refutation of my assertion: (p34 ¶7) "Nobility does not grant immunity from the law, however. All nobles are subject to the same restrictions as any other Imperial citizen."

So, yes, Knights and Peers are permitted small bladed weapons... but so is everyone else.

Also in S11, I found something that you were looking for (or to avoid) a couple years ago: The reference that there has been no Archduke of Deneb prior to the 5FW... p35 ¶9: "Of these, the Order of Sylea is administered by the Emperor himself (as de facto Archduke of Sylea); the Order of Deneb has never been used, as no Archduke of Deneb has ever been named." S11 p5 ¶3 specifies "Dates: The assumed date of publication of this supplement is 1107: the 1107th year since the founding of the Imperium. Information is current as of that date."

 

[Andrew Boulton]

In S11, I found an odd refutation of my assertion: (p34 ¶7) "Nobility does not grant immunity from the law, however. All nobles are subject to the same restrictions as any other Imperial citizen."

Legally speaking, yes, but in practice mere mortals tend to let them get away with, well, maybe not murder but quite a lot.