Weapons aboard ship?

[Icosahedron]

And that's also irrelevant to the OTU. The Rules ARE the OTU regs. If the overwhelming majority are not adhering to those standards (for whatever unspecified reasons), then you are not in the OTU.

Not necessarily, Aramis. The rules state what should occur in the OTU, not what does occur in the OTU (just like those speed limits).

The OTU could easily be a place where those rules exist, but everyone ignores them.

By your own argument, provided you have the rules you are in the OTU, whether or not your particular version of the OTU chooses to enforce them.

 

[Peter Newman]

It's not just Knights and Nobles...

TTB p51, lc, ¶1: "Passengers are required to check all weapons (except blades and daggers) into the ship's locker; they are returned at the end of the voyage"

So, yes, Knights and Peers are permitted small bladed weapons... but so is everyone else.

Note that the quote refers only to passengers and not to crew. Therefore we don't know what levels of weapons the _crew_ are permitted to carry. I suggest that this is what varies based on the laws of the ships planet of registry and the captains opinion. However if the passengers can have swords do you really want the crew completely disarmed, even if the ship is from a planet with LL9+?

 

[aramis]

Stating it as a fait accompli (as the ship operations rules do), combined with the rules stating that this is how things are done (not how they are legislated), no, Andrew, the OTU does have at least the majority, if not the overwhelming majority, doing so.

 

[aramis]

Peter, I think you forgot that CT and MT use "Blade" for what fencers refer to as a "Dagger" or Main Gauche... 12-18", armored hilt.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

The majority of passengers travel by liner, and yes, most of those will hand over their weapons (if they have any; most won't). But their will always be cases where this doesn't happen.

 

[aramis]

The majority of passengers travel by liner, and yes, most of those will hand over their weapons (if they have any; most won't). But their will always be cases where this doesn't happen.

Per Bk2, no, the majority will hand over everything but small and large knives.

Being armed is apparently considered sufficiently normative that most crews won't ask for, and most passengers will not willingly surrender, main gauches and smaller blades.

Snapshot, BTW, makes it fairly implicit most merchant crews carry non-firearms (see the mutiny scenario) not limited to just the Blade/Main Gauche and Dagger.

 

[Peter Newman]

Peter, I think you forgot that CT and MT use "Blade" for what fencers refer to as a "Dagger" or Main Gauche... 12-18", armored hilt.

No I didn't. If they'd said 'Blade' with a capital B I'd have read it as that weapon only. They said 'blades' which I interpreted as 'any bladed weapon'. (i.e weapons LL7, not weapons LL8). This may be too pedantic a reading, especially since they didn't capitalize 'dagger' either but in the combat section (TTB p 46 'Allowed Die Modifiers') they note that Strength gives a combat die modifier with 'blades' and they're using it to mean 'bladed muscle powered weapons' not 'weapons named Blade' so I read it more broadly here too. [1]
YMMV. It seems to me that the Third Imperium isn't the sort of place where you'd stop an ex Marine or a nobleman from carrying the longer weapon they're used to carrying but let the riff-raff carry their smaller weapons.

[1] With that noted I'd have to say that IMTU they would not allow carrying spears, halberds, and pikes on board ships as they're just too long and it would be too easy for them to get in the way; even though they probably count as 'blades' for purposes of the combat sections STR DM's section. I'd allow cudgels on board ships too even though they're not 'bladed'.

 

[rancke]

Per Bk2, no, the majority will hand over everything but small and large knives.

Book 2 (and most other Traveller material) deals with Free Traders. If you're a Free Trader, you [usually] lock up your passengers' weapons without exception (though just possibly the "without exception" part is due to rules simplification (No, I don't think that's very plausible, but it's possible)). Be that as it may, it seems clear that the captain of a Free Trader has the legal right to do so. This does not mean that company policy of established passenger lines cannot be different. For example, I imagine that there are Aslan-owned (Imperial Aslan, that is) passenger liners that will allow any honorable being to carry sidearms.

It's also concievable that Imperial regulations require any company that wants to keep its charter has to allow certain categories to retain their sidearms (e.g. serving Imperial officers, nobles and their bodyguards). Since Free Traders don't require an Imperial charter to operate, such regulations would not apply to them.


Hans

 

[Commander Truestar]

just my .02 Cr worth...

This, to me, is "Black and White" thinking when we live in a universe of grey.
To take from three real world examples:

One rarely sees any nobility of the British Empire armed except as part of a military uniform worn while on duty or in ceremony. While there are awards the world round that require that recipients go armed "at all times", this is rarely the case. Yes, all these people can arm themselves appropriate to their order in the event it becomes needed. But this is not a hard rule that such members ALWAYS are armed.

My second is somewhat less "real world", though real at the same time.
I belong to a group call The SCA(Not gonna bother you with the full name). We have persons elevated to Knighthood by our Royalty. Since we have no Orders per Se, I draw from the Sumptuary laws established regarding SCA Knighthood. All Knights and Dames are required to bear on their persons the symbols of their station. These are a plain white belt, a plain gold chain and spurs. However, in combat they rarely wear spurs a such can increase the dangers in a full contact, unchoreographed context. And it is often that a Knight or Dame has two of the three(and sometimes just the white belt).

So the "rules" say in black and white that all three must be worn. But in reality, even before The King and/or Queen, this is rarely the case.

My final point is thanks to our former(and much [NOT!]beloved[/NOT!] Governor Christine Todd Whit-LESS(and yes, I am misspelling her last name intentionally), all our law enforcement officers are considered "on duty" 24/7. So they are required to be able to act. Part of this requires they can properly identify themselves as Law Enforcement officers, so badge and identification are required. And part of this here in New Jersey is to be armed, in the event they need to respond with force. As a result, all law enforcement officers had to carry both badge and weapon(or have them ready to hand) 24/7 in the event they were called upon to act.

given the items above, I would think that this would be a common sense issue. Yes, there are trappings of office. But when you cross an extrality line or enter a starship you are _No_Longer_ on Imperial soil. Remember, The Imperium rules the space between the stars per Canon. So you adhere to local laws and rules per common sense.

Does this mean all starships will restrict weapons? No. Some will cater to that need. Some will ask that Nobility observe the likely ability to replace a ceremonial fire arm with a ceremonial bladed weapon(also a recognized option in The British Empire).

Marc (who is currently under consideration to assume the Baronial Heraldic title "Bell Pursuivant")

 

[Andrew Boulton]

A RW example: Sikhs are required to carry a dagger at all times. Some places allow it, some don't.

 

[rancke]

given the items above, I would think that this would be a common sense issue. Yes, there are trappings of office. But when you cross an extrality line or enter a starship you are _No_Longer_ on Imperial soil. Remember, The Imperium rules the space between the stars per Canon. So you adhere to local laws and rules per common sense.

The Imperium issues Imperial charters, without which a company is not allowed to conduct interstellar trade. Given that, I'd say that when you enter a starship[*], you entering Imperial jurisdiction with a vengeance.

[*] A company starship, that is. It's quite concievable that Free Traders are not covered by that.​

Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

The Imperium issues Imperial charters, without which a company is not allowed to conduct interstellar trade. Given that, I'd say that when you enter a starship[*], you entering Imperial jurisdiction with a vengeance.

[*] A company starship, that is. It's quite concievable that Free Traders are not covered by that.​

Hans

A company is issued a charter. The ship is just an asset. Are all assets of an Imperial chartered company the jurisdiction of the Imperium? No matter where they are?

The chartered company could own assets (warehouse, ships, factories, whatever...) outside the Imperium.

A company chartered outside the Imperium with a ship registered outside the Imperium could be doing some trade within the Imperium. Is an Imperial cargo handler who steps inside the ship now within foreign jurisdiction?

Is the foreign ship required to obtain an Imperial charter to do business in the Imperium?

 

[far-trader]

The Imperium issues Imperial charters, without which a company is not allowed to conduct interstellar trade. Given that, I'd say that when you enter a starship
[*], you entering Imperial jurisdiction with a vengeance.

[*] A company starship, that is. It's quite concievable that Free Traders are not covered by that.​

Hans

I've seen you mention this before and thought about commenting. I think it's pretty clear that "Free" Traders are not all that free. I've long ruled they operate (in the Imperium) under license (LIC) though they may also be guild associated in some cases.

First there's the rather obvious, though not concrete, fact from LBB2 onward that a Free Trader has to operate at the listed rates of passage and accept Tickets for passage. That seems rather regulated and implies a certain level of incorporation in the Imperial scheme.

Then there is the fact that in Supplement 7 the Imperial Free Trader "Jamison Factors" is listed in the section headed "Imperial Merchant Companies" with all the decidedly (I expect you would agree) "company" ships/outfits of the Megacorps, Corps, Companies, and Lines.

So I think their "freedom" is in not being tied to a route or contract. In being "free" to make their own call on where and when they go, what and who they haul (within the law and custom), answering only to the bank if they still owe on the ship, and even then only if they can't make the payments. And of course the bank is an Imperial Megacorp (in all likelihood) further reinforcing the Imperial nature of the Free Traders.

I'm pretty sure Free Traders in the Imperial sense are part and parcel of Imperial custom and subject to the same. Any starship operating in the Imperium is by definition (the space between the stars) under Imperial custom, or operating illegally. One might even argue that STL ships fall in this category as well.

That makes planetary space navy starships in the Imperium subject to Imperial law as well imo. I think they'd be considered reserve fleets. Making SDB's somewhat more sensible for locals as they'd maintain control of them and not have to worry about them being conscripted into some fight elsewhere leaving the home system without defensive ships. Though the Jump Module (and Tender/Rider model) suggests even local SDB's (and Riders) might be subject to Imperial mobilization under the law.

As for the "space between the stars" I've also long interpreted that similar to the coastal waters jurisdiction. Anything in a star system within 100d of a natural body of that system is local jurisdiction. Anything beyond 100d is Imperial jurisdiction, as well as designated Imperial jurisdictions within the local jurisdiction; like the Starport (not Spaceports), Imperial Bases, and granted estates of Imperial Nobility.

 

[far-trader]

In my opinion (and MTU)...

A company is issued a charter. The ship is just an asset. Are all assets of an Imperial chartered company the jurisdiction of the Imperium? No matter where they are?

When the asset is capable of or engaged in interstellar activity within the Imperium, yes.

The chartered company could own assets (warehouse, ships, factories, whatever...) outside the Imperium.

Yes, and they'd be under said foreign jurisdiction, until they entered Imperial space.

A company chartered outside the Imperium with a ship registered outside the Imperium could be doing some trade within the Imperium.

Yes, subject to acquiring an Imperial charter to do trade within the Imperium and then being under Imperial jurisdiction for the duration of operation within Imperial space.

Is an Imperial cargo handler who steps inside the ship now within foreign jurisdiction?

No, the other way around. The foreign ship entering Imperial space is now within and subject to Imperial jurisdiction. I'm presuming an Imperial cargo handler in this case refers to operations conducted at the Starport. Operations conducted at a local spaceport would come under local jurisdiction.

 

[aramis]

I tend to agree with Dan on the licensure issue: a free trader is not "free" as in "unregulated" nor "unlicensed" but is "free" as in "no route".

 

[rancke]

I've seen you mention this before and thought about commenting. I think it's pretty clear that "Free" Traders are not all that free.

They're subject to a lot of laws, of course, but I don't think it's at all clear that Free Traders are subject to the laws governing ships owned by Imperially chartered companies.

I think there are lots of different laws. Some apply to all ships. some apply to all civilian ships but not military. Some apply to all ships carrying commercial passengers, but not private ships like yachtand lab ships. And some apply to ships belonging to Imperial companies but not to ships with individual owners.

I've long ruled they operate (in the Imperium) under license (LIC) though they may also be guild associated in some cases.

And I've long ruled that ships owned by individuals (single ships, that is) do not require an Imperial charter to engage in interstellar commerce. But neither is any use as evidence, is it?

First there's the rather obvious, though not concrete, fact from LBB2 onward that a Free Trader has to operate at the listed rates of passage and accept Tickets for passage. That seems rather regulated and implies a certain level of incorporation in the Imperial scheme.

Either that or a certain amount of simplification and genericity in the game rules. And given that the per-jump prices of the rules lead to irreconcilable problems if taken to their logical conclusion, I think the second explanation is much better than the first.

That cuts both ways, BTW. I'd charge a PC who was trying to buy no-frills passage in a single stateroom on a Tukera Long-liner from Rhylanor to Celepina (i.e. a four parsec jump) Cr14,000 rather than Cr8000. I would allow him to pay with a Mid Passage voucher issued by an accreditted Imperial organization, but I'd also say (should anyone ask) that the company would be redeeming that particular voucher for Cr14,000.

Then there is the fact that in Supplement 7 the Imperial Free Trader "Jamison Factors" is listed in the section headed "Imperial Merchant Companies" with all the decidedly (I expect you would agree) "company" ships/outfits of the Megacorps, Corps, Companies, and Lines.

Interesting. I hadn't realized that, actually. But against that, I point out that there is no mention of Imperial charters in connection with any PC ship-owning activity, most especially including trading. I'd explain Jamieson Factors (and the other Free Trader companies mentioned) by pointing out that there's nothing to prevent a Free Trader from incorporating. Apparently Jamieson don't mind paying 2% of the profits to the Emperor . The question is if they're allowed to refrain.

I'm pretty sure Free Traders in the Imperial sense are part and parcel of Imperial custom and subject to the same. Any starship operating in the Imperium is by definition (the space between the stars) under Imperial custom, or operating illegally. One might even argue that STL ships fall in this category as well.

One might, but I don't want to. See, I dislike that uncompromising "The captain locks up the weapons" rule. Part of the reason I dislike it is that it's a 20th Centurism. That's how we do things nowadays, but that doesn't make it a universal truth. Just imagine the captain of an Age of Sail East Indiaman demanding that a King's officer traveling on his ship turn over that pair of duelling pistols in his luggage. The captain wouldn't dream of doing any such thing and if he did, the officer would be highly offended. The captain would have the right to order the officer off his ship, of course, but I doubt he'd stay a captain once the Army had complained to the Company (social and political connections of the two gentlemen being assumed to not be a factor).

Now, just because something is a 20th Centurism isn't grounds in itself to dislike it (unless you prefer as much "We're not in Kansas anymore" feeling as you can get, anyway). But it is grounds to consider if it's a good idea. The notion that the Imperium wouldn't make sure its servants would be able to carry their sidearms aboard the ships that their tickets entitle them to ride (a High Passage force the captain to evict another passenger) doesn't seem right to me. And as an adventure-writer I regret the plot potential that such a rule deprive me of.

But the rule is there, so apparently a captain is legally able to sequester the arms of all his passengers, up to and including Imperial officers and nobles. To get around that, I'm exploring the possibility of making a distinction between what PC free trader captains usually do and what NPC passenger liner captains usually do.

It seems to me that making free traders less dependent on Imperial favor would help in that respect.

That makes planetary space navy starships in the Imperium subject to Imperial law as well imo. I think they'd be considered reserve fleets.

I think so too, but I think that's by reason of the membership treaties. The Imperium promises to portect the member world and the member world promises to help the Imperium. For details, see the codicil.

As for the "space between the stars" I've also long interpreted that similar to the coastal waters jurisdiction. Anything in a star system within 100d of a natural body of that system is local jurisdiction. Anything beyond 100d is Imperial jurisdiction, as well as designated Imperial jurisdictions within the local jurisdiction; like the Starport (not Spaceports), Imperial Bases, and granted estates of Imperial Nobility.

In the interest of making the Imperium as customizeable (if that's a word) as possible, I'd rather that depended on the individual membership treaty. There'll be some boilerplate, but the details would vary depending on historical factors. Worlds that were settled after inclusion into the Imperium would have far more restriced jurisdiction that worlds that were long settled and joined peacefully.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

LBB2 page 5 that says

Passengers are required to check all weapons (except blades and daggers) into the ships locker

If there are other references, please point them out to me.
FYI: I'm not aware of this line in the MGT Core Rulebook.

For those of you that like to debate the rules, how about this:
1) When pulling out single lines from the book it is easy to lose context. The line quoted above is pulled from the section Travelling\Lesser Known Aspects of Space Travel\Hijacking. I'd like to point out 'Lesser Known Aspects of Space Travel'. So, if it is lesser known, maybe this implies that some ship Captains are not even aware of it? If it is lesser known, maybe this implies there is not strict enforcement of it? Since it is under Hijacking, perhaps it is only done on ships that feel Hijacking is an issue?

2) For the rules police a little further on page 6 of LBB2 under Travelling\Lesser Known Aspects of Space Travel\Skipping it says

Passengers have no way themselves of determining if a specific ship is in such status. Throw 12+ to determine that a commercial ship is of this type.

Please describe how can there be no way yet the very next sentence provides a way via a difficult roll?

To me, this is proof that any 'rule' in the book can have exceptions and is not universal.

2) On page 15 of LBB2 under Design and Construction\Optional Components\Ships Locker it says

Every ship has a ship's locker

So if every ship has a ship's locker, why is it listed under Optional Components and not under Required Starship Components?

If it is an optional item, then ships may not have a ship's locker for which to lock up weapons.

FYI: The same Ship's locker quote appears in MGT but it is not under Optional. It is under Spacecraft Design\The Main Compartment\Ship's Locker.

 

[travlar]

2) For the rules police a little further on page 6 of LBB2 under Travelling\Lesser Known Aspects of Space Travel\Skipping it says

Passengers have no way themselves of determining if a specific ship is in such status. Throw 12+ to determine that a commercial ship is of this type.

Please describe how can there be no way yet the very next sentence provides a way via a difficult roll?

To me, this is proof that any 'rule' in the book can have exceptions and is not universal.

I've always thought that the roll was for the referee to determine whether that was the case or not; not the passengers. I could be completely wrong, of course, but I thought I'd point the possibility out.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I'd like to point out 'Lesser Known Aspects of Space Travel'. So, if it is lesser known, maybe this implies that some ship Captains are not even aware of it? If it is lesser known, maybe this implies there is not strict enforcement of it? Since it is under Hijacking, perhaps it is only done on ships that feel Hijacking is an issue?

As I think I said earlier, it's pretty much impossible to enforce it, at least on free traders.

 

[aramis]

As I think I said earlier, it's pretty much impossible to enforce it, at least on free traders.

After the fact punishments are likely to be quite high; there is impication of a commercial service endorsement on the ship's registry, and the implication is that one can't roll for passengers or freight without same.