MGT Only: Weapons Playtest for Traveller

[aramis]

I have no training as a shooter. I don't really want to be. That said, while I understand your point, I've presented the version Matt took from in order to 1.) reduce rpg skill bloat and 2.) present a way to keep the action moving.

Keep in mind that this is presented as the basic, standard rule, and while I'll be happy if someone uses it, I will accept anyone going with another rule that fits their group.

If you and I meet and you run, I'll happily use your rule as long as you do the same if I run.

I don't think you get it - He's making it WORSE for verisimilitude. It's not a matter of skill bloat - he's shortening the list if I read it right, and using a distinction that's as bogus as saying "Medicine (English), Medicine (American) or Medicine (French)" - the distinction is marginally useful in one VERY incredibly edge case (what's legal), and totally bogus for the majority cases (treating wounds, diagnosing and treating diseases).

Skill bloat could be solved easily by simply reducing it to "slughthrowers" and "energy weapons" - and would be a better option than dividing by "military" vs "non-military". In no small part, because the only actions not found in military use are the muzzleloaders, and they used to be.

 

[mike wightman]

It's the old why can't a cleric swing a sword if they are trained to use maces and war hammers. In the real world it makes no sense.

In a country like the USA where fully automatic weapons are available from time to time to the civilian population are shooting military grade weapons.

There is no difference in skill to shoot a civilian rifle vs a military one, its a distinction that doesn't exist.

Handgun, rifle, heavy weapons - those are the skills I use in my CT+ rules.

 

[MongooseMatt]

You're, again, taking the WORST case presented, and because it fits your preextant misconceptions, running with it.

Very sorry, you missed the original proposal that had nine different specialities - this is about as far away from that as one can get.

I like it because it kills the skill bloat and puts a de-emphasis on combat skills in the game.

However, it is not the only way to achieve this. Presuming no one has issues with the Heavy Weapon split (man portable, artillery, vehicle), then another way to handle Gun Combat, as someone has already suggested, is make a shortarm/longarm split. Or, as you suggested later, slug/energy - in terms of game design, now we have pared things down to two main specialities, I don't actually mind which way we jump;

1. Civilian/Military (splitting between easy to use and stuff that needs proper training - I think this will be on the bottom rung for most people though).

2. Shortarm/Longarm (as advocated by Mongoose's Official Weapons Person - ex-sergeant French Army)

3. Slug/Energy (strong arguments for this one too)


What would people like to see?

I'll throw a hat in the ring ... I always liked the longshots

I see what you are doing, and it has elegance, but it is also too complicated for what we are looking for and would send the page count rocketing in Traveller books. It would also mean a lot of book consulting during play, whereas there is next to none at the moment.

Don't think it will fly

 

[aramis]

Very sorry, you missed the original proposal that had nine different specialities - this is about as far away from that as one can get.

I like it because it kills the skill bloat and puts a de-emphasis on combat skills in the game.

However, it is not the only way to achieve this. Presuming no one has issues with the Heavy Weapon split (man portable, artillery, vehicle), then another way to handle Gun Combat, as someone has already suggested, is make a shortarm/longarm split. Or, as you suggested later, slug/energy - in terms of game design, now we have pared things down to two main specialities, I don't actually mind which way we jump;

1. Civilian/Military (splitting between easy to use and stuff that needs proper training - I think this will be on the bottom rung for most people though).

2. Shortarm/Longarm (as advocated by Mongoose's Official Weapons Person - ex-sergeant French Army)

3. Slug/Energy (strong arguments for this one too)

Shortarm/longarm are key - but so is energy/slug/indirect.

Anything less than 4 ( Slug Pistol, Slug longarm, Energy Pistol, Energy longarm) is too few for anything approaching realism - but, thanks to gun combat being a cascade, the "bloat" is minimal even if you use 9.

Slug should probably also have SMG, since the firing stances are different for them. Energy weapons don't have a compelling reason for an SMG skill equivalent. And the early SMG's, like the Thompson .45ACP or the Sten, really fit well with Rifles, but modern ones like the Ingram MAC-10 and MAC-11, and the Skorpion vz. 61 lack the grip points to use it like a longarm, but are too heavy and recoil intensive to use like a pistol.

The arguments for shotguns are, like SMG's, about the difference in posture, aiming techniques, and recoil compensation techniques - but if you're going to consolidate, it's the one that is least special.

The Grenade Launcher should fall under Heavy Weapons, but if it falls under Gun Combat, then it should be a separate specialty. Again, it's a matter of stance, aim, and recoil.

So, I see 5 as key: Slug Pistol, Slug Rifle, SMG, Laser Pistol, Laser Rifle.
I see two others as "should be" - High Energy Weapons, Shotguns.

HEW Because firing a bolt of plasma isn't the same as a slug of lead/copper/steel, nor is it the same as putting a laser on target. You have to lead differently.

And yeah, that's 7 specialties. Most people do one or two - most competitive shooters compete in one.

I see what you are doing, and it has elegance, but it is also too complicated for what we are looking for and would send the page count rocketing in Traveller books. It would also mean a lot of book consulting during play, whereas there is next to none at the moment.

Don't think it will fly

for the clueless, Art was suggesting the system from 1st ed Paranoia.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Shortarm/longarm are key - but so is energy/slug/indirect.

And if you had to pick one?

 

[Vladika]

Matt:

You are consistently proving that you are going to do what you want anyway so why solicit input? From appearances it seems you are looking for "YES MEN" so you can later say "See, I listened to the fans".

Bullshit.

Try listening to aramis; He's right and apparently has the patience to continue this argument.

You've previously admitted you know nothing of the subject (and continue to vociferously prove it) and don't even like guns. OK some of us do. While your stated goal is to try to minimize their use in gaming some of us don't want that.

MgT is sounding like a politically motivated "PC" mouthpiece for social change and NOT a SciFi/Fantasy role playing game system. This supposedly started out in designing for Mercenary 2. What will your mercs be armed with? Glitter batons?

 

[whulorigan]

And if you had to pick one?

I won't speak for Aramis, but I think the Energy vs. Slug is the (slightly) more significant of the two. But both are important.

It was already mentioned up-thread, but you probably could put all Laser-type weapons (and Sonic-type as well) into a single Energy Weapons category, as Pistol/SmallArm/LongArm is significantly less important for non-recoil weapons. (in fact, CT just had a "Laser" skill covering all Laser Weapons).

Slug throwers are more important to categorize into Pistol/PDW-SMG/Longarm due to stance and recoil considerations.


So perhaps:

Gun Combat:

Slug Pistol: Handheld pistols such as the boy pistol and revolver.
Slug PDW: Smaller personal defence weapons such as submachine guns.
Slug Rifle: Long rifles such as the autorifle and gauss rifle.
Shotgun: All shotgun weapons. (Possibly Shotgun & Slug Rifle could be combined into "Slug Longarm", if really necessary).
Slug Support: Heavy but man-portable weapons such as machineguns.
Energy (Laser) Weapons: All low-power energy Weapons (i.e. Lasers) of whatever configuration.
High-Energy (Plasma) Weapons should probably have their own category, due to different firing characteristics and recoil. (Plasma Rifle, et al - i.e. "Small/Long Arms", not Man-Portable systems)


Heavy Weapons:

Launchers: Rocket, missile and grenade launchers.
Man Portable (Energy): Man portable heavy fusion and plasma weapons (PGMP/FGMP).
Artillery (Slug/Expolsive): Field-based artillery such as fixed guns and mortars.
Energy: Extremely large energy-based weapons such as meson accelerators.
Flamethrower: Weaponry that projects a controllable stream of flame or acid.

 

[Fovean]

Yet another suggestion...

Gun Cbt:
Slug Pistol
Slug Rifle (includes longarm shotguns)
Slug Assault (PDW, SMG, combat shotguns, etc)
Energy Weapons

Heavy Weapons:
Support (MG, auto-cannon, vehicle mounts)
Launchers (include flamethrowers here)
Man-Portable
Artillery (indirect: mortars, howitzers, vehicle-mount launchers)

Gunnery:
Artillery (direct fire: orbital defence cannon, rail guns, ground-based emplacements, etc)
Shipboard (turrets, barbettes, bays)
Spinals

Matt:

Bullshit.

How is this post not infraction-worthy? I thought personal attacks were against the rules of the board.

 

[atpollard]

1. Civilian/Military (splitting between easy to use and stuff that needs proper training - I think this will be on the bottom rung for most people though).

2. Shortarm/Longarm (as advocated by Mongoose's Official Weapons Person - ex-sergeant French Army)

3. Slug/Energy (strong arguments for this one too)

What would people like to see?

I think that the arguments are strong for a 3 way split:
Slug Shortarm: One-hand aim, fire, control recoil training.
Slug Longarm: Two-hand aim, fire, control recoil training.
Energy: Direct LOS aim, non-instant fire (paint the target), no recoil.

It becomes a simple matter for any new weapon introduced to decide whether it can be fired one-handed, requires two hands, or fires a beam ...

Mac-10 ... one hand.
Howdah Pistol ... one hand.
FN P90 ... two hands
Sawed-Off Shotgun ... two hands.
Mare's Leg ... two hands.
Personal Disintegrator ... beam.

... as opposed to the debate on which of these weapons are 'civilian' and which are 'military'.

Absent the 3 way split, I would suggest that Slug/Energy is the more important split ... adjusting for range drop and windage (or not) seems like a pretty big deal for whether you shoot the target or the ground half-way between you and the target.

Don't think it will fly

Neither did I.

 

[whulorigan]

Yet another suggestion...

Gun Cbt:
Slug Pistol
Slug Rifle (includes longarm shotguns)
Slug Assault (PDW, SMG, combat shotguns, etc)
Energy Weapons

Heavy Weapons:
Support (MG, auto-cannon, vehicle mounts)
Launchers (include flamethrowers here)
Man-Portable
Artillery (indirect: mortars, howitzers, vehicle-mount launchers)

Gunnery:
Artillery (direct fire: orbital defence cannon, rail guns, ground-based emplacements, etc)
Shipboard (turrets, barbettes, bays)
Spinals

How about a combination of yours and mine:

Gun Combat:
Slug Pistol
Slug Rifle (includes longarm shotguns)
Slug Assault (PDW, SMG, combat shotguns, etc)
Laser Weapons (no-recoil)
Energy Weapons (Plasma Rifle, et al - with recoil)

Heavy Weapons:
Slug Support (MG, auto-cannon, vehicle mounts)
Field Artillery (indirect: mortars, howitzers (LoVel/HiVel/HyperVel Guns), vehicle-mount launchers)
Launchers (Grenade-Launcher/Rocket/Missile/Flamethrowers here)
HE-Weapon Man-Portable (PGMP/FGMP)

Gunnery:
Artillery (direct fire: orbital defence cannon, rail guns, ground-based emplacements, etc)
Shipboard (turrets, barbettes, bays)
Spinals

Laser & Plasma should definitely be different skills. If it came down to collapsing Plasma Weapons into another category, I would think Plasma Rifles would be more similar to Slug Rifles than Lasers in terms of handling.

 

[Jame]

And if you had to pick one?

For me:

Ranged/Shortarm
Ranged/Longarm

And don't bother with slug versus energy - and my logic is the following. As far as reducing skill bloat is concerned for an RPG, you want to say for a character "okay, when you learned how to shoot with handguns, you went out and practiced with autopistols, revolvers, body pistols, laser pistols and gauss pistols, to see which one you preferred to use. Even though you prefer the autopistol, enough of your training remains to allow use of the other one-handed ranged weapons."

 

[RandyB]

For me:

Ranged/Shortarm
Ranged/Longarm

And don't bother with slug versus energy - and my logic is the following. As far as reducing skill bloat is concerned for an RPG, you want to say for a character "okay, when you learned how to shoot with handguns, you went out and practiced with autopistols, revolvers, body pistols, laser pistols and gauss pistols, to see which one you preferred to use. Even though you prefer the autopistol, enough of your training remains to allow use of the other one-handed ranged weapons."

Seconded. The ergonomics of operating the equipment is where the difference reaches Traveller's level of granularity. The other details, real though they are, are too small in their differences to affect the outcome of a 2D6 resolution mechanism.

 

[Fovean]

How about a combination of yours and mine:

Laser & Plasma should definitely be different skills. If it came down to collapsing Plasma Weapons into another category, I would think Plasma Rifles would be more similar to Slug Rifles than Lasers in terms of handling.

Works for me.

 

[aramis]

And if you had to pick one?

I'd walk away in disgust, because both are equally important distinctions.

 

[whulorigan]

And if you had to pick one?

Perhaps you could go with the more granular approach that uses both energy/slug distinction and the long/shortarm distinctions (as I and some others have discussed in this thread), but have the minimalist skill-set detailed in a sidebar as an "Optional Rule" for those who prefer that approach.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Does one lump a bolt action rifle with a fully automatic assault rifle?
Does one lump a energy rifle with a slug rifle?

There is some varying degree of difference to a variety of ranged guns and no matter the specializations breakdown, it won't be perfect.

People have varying degrees of preferences regarding the skill specializations.

Personally, after reading the discussion I have suggestions that have nothing to do with simulating realistic ranged combat skill. It's simply just a game design mechanics choice.

1) Keep the differentiation between slug and energy weapons. It's a game mechanic for a Sci Fi game - making this differentiation helps reinforce the Sci Fi.
2) If this is part of a supplement, keep it compatible with the original core rules or make sure it's optional. Make sure characters made with different resources can still be easily used together.
3) KISS.

To throw things in a totally different direction. What about if Gun Combat was dropped as a skill. Melee combat is lumped together. How about Ranged Combat? Ranged Combat (Gun), Ranged Combat (Bow), Ranged Combat (Sling), Ranged Combat (Blowgun), ... hmm, I can see this one getting out of hand too... Ranged Combat (Grenade), Ranged Combat (Boomerang)... Anyways, this was meant more to just make you think than as a real suggestion. Pointing out that as a ranged weapon, some of the differences pointed out between different guns seam pretty minor. Whats next? Redo Melee? Melee (short single edged blades), Melee (long single edged blades), Melee (short double edged blades), Melee (long double edged blades), Melee (short thrusting blades), Melee (long thrusting blades), and so on.

My preference is to keep it simple vs lots of specialization.

 

[Spartan159]

For my 2 credits worth, what I'd prefer to see:
Slug Pistol, Slug Rifle, SMG, Laser Pistol, Laser Rifle, High Energy Weapons and Shotguns as per Aramis, for the same reasons. Something like the Grenade Launcher should be a heavy weapon skill, either indirect, or if rocket propelled, direct fire.

 

[RandyB]

Does one lump a bolt action rifle with a fully automatic assault rifle?
Does one lump a energy rifle with a slug rifle?

At Traveller's level of granularity, YES!

My preference is to keep it simple vs lots of specialization.

I concur.

 

[Vladika]

I'd walk away in disgust, because both are equally important distinctions.

aramis, I have walked away in disgust. He just plain isn't listening, doesn't care and, to top it all off, admits he knows nothing of the subject.

So, I give up trying.

To quote Heinlein: Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

 

[whulorigan]

Remember, in MgT anyone who has any one skill of a cascade is by default at "Level-0" in all skills of that particular cascade. So the "simple/KISS" approach to weapon skills is already implicitly there, in a sense (i.e. getting a level of skill in a weapon does give skill in the other weapons of that group, just at level-0. Also, one could make a rule that certain weapon-skills default to others at "half-skill/drop fractions" instead of 0-level, in particular cases where there is uncertainty as to the level of similarity between two weapons.