Web Game ala CT (SPATRAS)

[ebullient]

Well, hunter has his pm's turned off and I don't know about any other admins. Lurking would probably fix that but this is kind of time urgent, so I hope I may be forgiven for any infractions in posting this here. I've read all the rules through so hopefully this is ok.

Anyway.

For our senior project in Computer Science, a classmate and myself are developing a web-based space trading/combat game using Classic Traveller rules currently titled Spatras. We probably won't be using the existing maps, choosing instead to randomly generate worlds (using the rules and they will be persistent) but the rule system will be the same. Character generation, trade, ships, combat, etc.; will all be handled per books 1-3 as closely as possible. If we have time, and in the future, we may add additional book rules as expansions, like Merchant and Robots.

If you need a basic idea of what we're trying to do, check out ogame.org. We are not affiliated or associated with that site in any way, I'm just showing it here as an example. It has its drawbacks (not trying to trash it, as per the rules) and we feel we can do better using Web 2.0 principles and the Classic Traveller rule set.

So. The reason I've started this thread is that I need feedback and advice, especially and most urgently on copyright/trademark issues. I've reviewed the fair use faq for FFE and I've followed all the steps such as posting the disclaimer and emailing the company our links. I have also informed them of our intentions and requested more information but have not received a reply yet. As an aside, the email addy mentioned in the faq is wrong, it should probably be updated (I used the one they used to contact me when I ordered my CT reprint).

We wish to use ads to help support the server and possibly even make a little money, so of course there is also a pending royalty issue. All of this is still in very early stages so no infringement or misuse has occurred yet and neither of us have any sort of intention whatsoever towards any infringement or misuse or other illegal use of CT materials. Hence this post.

Let me say again that we have attempted to email FFE and will snail mail to the registered address associated with that site. If you have any more contact info we can try that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[aramis]

Sounds like you are following the protocols.

I'd hold off on adverts until you've gotten permission, and MWM of FarFuture is the man to talk to, not Hunter (tho' Hunter is the man for T20).

Getting advice on securing legal permission is not a violation of the board rules!

 

[hunter]

If you don't hear back from Marc in a couple of days for some reason, email me at grip (the @ sign) RPGRealms.com, remind me of this thread and I'll try to pass it along to Marc for you. Sounds interesting!

 

[kafka47]

Before proceeding my suggestion would be to get a written letter from Marc W. Miller confirming that he has your approval to use the CT rules for this purpose. There is a contact information on his website but you can also try
farfuture@gmail.com
onlooker1@verizon.netl.com
marc@farfuture.net
as alternate emails. As the rules remain firmly within copyright.

 

[dethl]

Before proceeding my suggestion would be to get a written letter from Marc W. Miller confirming that he has your approval to use the CT rules for this purpose. There is a contact information on his website but you can also try
farfuture@gmail.com
onlooker1@verizon.netl.com
marc@farfuture.net
as alternate emails. As the rules remain firmly within copyright.

Thanks for the extra email addresses! I'll let ebullient know (unless he's read this already, though I can't seem to get a hold of him on AIM ).

Guess I'll chime in here while I'm at it. I'm the developer/classmate ebullient talked about. If this project does get the permissions and once we get it off the ground I'll probably be here quite often. I'm really excited to be working on this.

To be honest - I've never heard of the Classic Traveller series before ebullient told me about this project idea. I wish I had heard of it sooner. I feel kind of bad, but I think I'll have the rules completely memorized by the time this game goes live (EDIT: and probably reciting them in my sleep).

 

[ebullient]

Thanks so much for the prompt replies guys, and thanks for the offer of assistance hunter. We will of course keep this updated.

Just a few notes:
We would not do anything involving money (except maybe in the strictest non-profit sense, if possible) until we secured permission. In fact, there isn't any chance we'd be ready to go live in any way before we'd get permission.

We did use the gmail address. I'll try the others as well.


I had a couple more questions that maybe you kind folks can give me some input on. In implementing the rules, and in a multi-user application like we're trying to develop, some things are going to have to change. Jumps for example cannot take a week and I want to avoid having to compress things in terms of game vs real time (like 1 minute real time is an hour game time or similar). The fair use faq specifically prohibits rewriting the rules. I know that once we get ahold of Mr Miller we can probably either get his assistance or oversight or whatever to where we can do this. But do any of you have some initial thoughts?

 

[Merxiless]

Even if you aren't planning on making money on it, Marc Miller has to approve it lest he lose his Trademark and copyrights on Traveller, with your project as an offshoot of what passes for the Traveller Universe.

I'd hold off on more programming until you get word back, and instead focus on writing the proposal, etc., to convince him you aren't going to mishandle it.

Due to pending contracts with mongoose, I guess coming up, They might get involved somehow..I don't know, I haven't dealt with them, but the big push seems to be toward Mongoose as the New Classic Traveller.

I'm no legal expert, just some things to think about, and consider.

 

[ebullient]

That's a good point. One thing that may be an issue, since this is a website it might fall under the existing fair use policy and unless there's money involved posting the disclaimer and sending the emails with the links may qualify as fulfillment of our responsibilities.

Additionally, in a way we are merely refereeing a massive game of CT. Digitally.

In any case I agree it's gonna have to wait for the final word from Mr Miller. We haven't started officially coding on it yet, but as I understand it as long as we don't release it to the public development would be ok.

Hopefully we'll be allowed to use the existing CT system as it is. I wasn't aware of any other entity assuming the copyrights and other properties, I pray that doesn't delay getting an answer.

Worst comes to worst we'll just write our own rules.

EDIT: Mongoose could really confuse things. They will have a logo available to licensees, but their works seem to be only based on Traveller, not assuming it. If I'm reading it right, while they are trying to re-condense Traveller it is still something of a derivative work since hunter's announcement mentions 'based on' many times. Hopefully this means that we can use original Classic Traveller with no worries.

 

[Berg]

For our senior project in Computer Science, a classmate and myself are developing a web-based space trading/combat game using Classic Traveller rules currently titled Spatras....If you need a basic idea of what we're trying to do, check out ogame.org.

A game like this based on Traveller... Cool!

If done right, I think a game like this could raise the profile of Traveller too...

 

[ebullient]

A game like this based on Traveller... Cool!

If done right, I think a game like this could raise the profile of Traveller too...

That would be awesome! And if we get permission I do so hope that it is in fact very cool (fingers crossed). We'll certainly work hard on it.

Update: I sent the emails a second time today. I don't want to spam him of course, but I do want him to notice them. I made a note that it was the second attempt. Tomorrow I think I will go ahead and take hunter up on his offer.

 

[ebullient]

Marc Miller wrote me back!

Here is the email I sent back to him (note that some formatting was lost):

Dear Mr. Miller:

Hi! Thanks for writing me back.

Our initial focus will be on space trading, ship-to-ship combat, and exploration. Also character generation will keep things like pistol skills and (maybe not initially) we would like to use that for boarding. At some point in the future we would like to implement some sort of planetary adventure as well.

Our concept is a web-based game similar to (but far better than) ogame.org. This game has huge flaws. There is no exploration to speak of, combat is static (you can determine the exact results of any battle before you engage using a player-made tool), there is no trading, no visual representation of other players, etc. As a long-time fan of Classic Traveller I felt that the flexibility and adaptability of these rules would enable us to create a more satisfying game. Our vision is a game that allows a playing model similar to the following:
* Create characters (using Book 1)
* Enter Space Trade/Combat/Exploration (using Book 2 and Book 3)
- via Scout mustering out with Scout Ship.
- via teaming up and pooling resources to buy a ship.
- via working for other players,
existing player-run companies,
or for the Imperium (which would be us, the developers).
* Allow for Ship Purchase, Building, and Combat (using Book 2)

This overall gameplay would (hopefully) have something like the following mechanics:
* Exploration. Worlds and other errata are randomly generated when explorers venture into unknown map regions. Then they are maintained as part of the persistent universe, meaning other players can visit there. We would use the rules in Book 3 to handle this. As of now we don't intend on using the existing canon maps, everything will be generated.
* Trade. Book 2 rules.
* Imperium. Either ourselves or possibly ai to be a governing force in the spirit of Classic Traveller and the era of wooden ships. This also means of course that players can become pirates and prey on other players or tangle with the Imperium.
* Visual recognition of other players and communication keeping in the spirit of CT. This means that long range messages are handled via courier (or possibly drone) and short-range is real-time (via radio). Initially this may mean that you see their ship on some sort of map. We hope to have this feature be so basic as to allow players to form companies of mercenaries, traders, or pirate bands in a way that is integral to the game.

In the future, if and when we continue to work on this project, we would like to implement more books from Classic Traveller; especially High Guard, Merchant Prince, and Robots.

To summarize, we would like to implement Books 1-3 as much as possible. The game itself will have as many players as want to play, similar to an internet forum. Therefore, while my colleague and I may be something like a referee, there won't be any specific story-telling unless it is performed by the players themselves using the game. I have not played this game, but the old Trade Wars BBS game might be a similar concept; EVE Online is also a loose sort of example, but ours probably would not have quests and certainly won't be as graphics oriented (we're limited to webpage-type interface and graphics). We want a system where players can run around on their own trading and fighting and interacting and what-have-you and we feel that Classic Traveller rules are a great match for implementing this. The only things that we would want to implement that are canon are the Imperium and some of the basic ships and items. If you only allow us to use the rule set we can, of course, use our own items and governing body. Additionally, and this is a much later if ever goal, we would like to use ads or some similar model to support the server. This might mean royalties of course, or some sort of licensing agreement. I'm only speculating, I have never done this before so I don't know what it would involve. I just do not want to do anything illegal, much less infringe on something that I respect and enjoy so much.

Allow me to restate that we do not now or ever intend to infringe on your works.

I feel it's also worth mentioning that some parts of CT probably will not work in our implementation. The fair-use faq I read at travellerrpg.com mentions that rule rewriting is forbidden, and I understand why. However, especially since we do not wish to do game time compression if possible (i.e., one minute in real life is one hour in game time) and since all players have to be doing things in the same time-frame; there are many elements that would have to be changed. Jumping for example shouldn't take a week. If we gain your permission I hope you can give us some advice on this.

Thank you very very much for your reply, interest, and time.

Sincerely,
(name removed cuz I'm paranoid)

Marc Miller wrote:
> I think I need to know the scope of this projct? It is just Space Trading?
> How big? How many users?
>
>
> -----Original Message----- (headings removed)
>
> Dear Sir:
>
> I am a Computer Science student working on my bachelor's degree at New
> Mexico State University. I am a long-time fan of Classic Traveller, and for
> a senior project a classmate and myself will be writing a web-based
> space-trading game inspired by CT. I would like to use your rule system
> outright, and word-for-word if possible; however I recognize that there may
> be use issues. I say inspired by because we aren't currently planning on
> implementing official background and stories, especially maps, choosing
> instead to generate such material at random using the rules in books 1-3.
> While most if not all of our code will be open-source, we would like to make
> some money from ads or similar in this game so information about royalty
> issues, etc., would be appreciated. We are nowhere near going live with the
> site and certainly not in any position to make a profit yet (if ever).
> Additionally, we are definitely adding links and other reference info so
> interested users will be able to view your products. We might also be able
> to volunteer our services to revamp your site (farfuture.net) which is,
> quite frankly, abysmal (design issues, broken links, etc).
>
> I will continue to email and start snail-mailing to the registered address
> for farfuture.net until I get a reply, so please forgive my persistence.
>
> F.Y.I, I'm a happy owner of the Classic Traveller 0-8 reprint. My classmate
> plans on buying the first three books via eBay. I also hope to collect the
> other reprints at some point.
>
> Thanks very much for your time and consideration,
>
> (name removed cuz I'm paranoid)
>
> p.s. Let me restate our commitment to not infringing on your intellectual
> property. We want to do this for fun and for a grade and if more things
> come out of it, great. But we're fans (especially me) and we hold CT in the
> highest respect.
>
>
>
>

 

[Merxiless]

Well seems like a well considered proposal to me. Sounds interesting, as a game, and as a concept. Good luck.

 

[ebullient]

Mr Miller has yet to email me back and we need to get started so at this point we're moving forward with designing our own rule system.

Unfortunate because CT is already well-designed and I'd hate to reinvent the wheel. Oh well.

Edit: I've emailed hunter per his earlier suggestion to see if there's anything else we can do. I may be mistaken but I got the impression that he might be able to allow us to adapt T20 rules. However, I'm not familiar with it.