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What does a sandcaster look like?

Originally posted by Valarian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Valarian:
I've pictured this as a canister charge, like a depth charge, filled with ceramic glass material. It gets launched from the ship on a trajectory, then explodes forming a temporary barrier between the attacker and the target.
Considering how big space is, how fast they would have to disperse, (and they will keep dispersing just as quickly) and how small they are (50kg) compared to the size of the ship they are protecting. The jammer in a can is a better choice. </font>[/QUOTE]You'd have to fire them on the incoming trajectory of a missile, or the predicted trajectory of direct laser fire (i.e. between you and the attacking ship). I only allow the effect the last a single combat round (it's a -2 penalty to hit for T20 IIRC).

There's no real scientific basis for this, I just like the depth charge analogy. I'd also allow customised missiles to act as decoys / jammers.
These would be more expensive than standard missiles.
</font>[/QUOTE]You are covering lots of ship with little sand, while both of you are maneuvering (And the sand isn't) against potentially multiple attackers that each may or may not be firing on you. (Which is why it has always bothered me.
) That is an awfully lot of sand in a 50KG canister fired from a launcher that takes up less than 1/3rd DTons.
 
Originally posted by Maladominus:
I always imagined that it looks like a giant catapult, hurling magical sand into space, thereby adding to the pollution of Deep Space.
It's ok, the stuff is vacu-degradable.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
That is an awfully lot of sand in a 50KG canister fired from a launcher that takes up less than 1/3rd DTons.
He's quasi-using the CT idea that sandcasters can be used as "big shotguns"...

...and, heck, he's probably using grav focussing too to keep the sand together as a shield against incoming fire?
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
FF&S says magnetic or grav, depending on TL.
Unfortunately, even with that paradigm, having 50kg in sand, protecting 100+ DTon ship from fire of a type that you can't detect until it actually hits you from an angle that you have close to correct when you have 2 ships maneuvering radically in 3D, is still precognition or magic sand.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Unfortunately, even with that paradigm, having 50kg in sand, protecting 100+ DTon ship from fire of a type that you can't detect until it actually hits you from an angle that you have close to correct when you have 2 ships maneuvering radically in 3D, is still precognition or magic sand.
That's if the sand is close to the hull. And, I know most definitions of sand in Traveller, especially CT, envisions a ship withing a "cloud" of the stuff.

But, what if the 50kg of sand is projected away from the ship? If it's grav-focussed far enough away from the ship (and most hexes on a Space Combat board are at least 10,000 km), then it would be like holding your thumb out to block out the flashlight beam on a dark night.

(Puts on speculation hat...)

Let's say the grav focussing is half a km from the ship. A 50 kg cloud.

On top of this, lasers move at the speed of light, but at space combat distances, high tech computers might have time to react in the miliseconds the between when the lasers are detected and the beam hits the ship--enough time to adjust sand focussing to place the cloud between the ship and the incoming fire.

The sandcaster is not only a cannister launcher, but it also includes the grav focussing mechanism. And like starship missile defense, it acts automatically once a cannister is launched.

Now, the autodefense won't catch all incoming fire. It can't be quick enough to catch 100% of all lasers striking the ship. Sometimes the turret is on the far side of the ship as it changes facing, rolls, and brings other turrets to bear.

But, in CT, sand provides a -3 DM to hit. So, maybe when that DM is overcome, the sand wasn't placed in front of the incoming laser fire in time.

Just a thought.
 
Here's a question about sand I've never really bothered to figure out.

On the CT charts, it says sand provides a -3 DM per 25mm.

I know that means "per 2500 km", but what are we talking about here?

Is that a range DM? Every 2500 km, it's a -3 DM? So that, at 5000 km, it's a -6 DM, and at 10,000 km, it's a -12 DM?

Naw, that can't be.

So, is it some measure of the sand itself? 50 kg of sand makes a cloud 2500 km wide? So, if you fire the sandcaster twice, the cloud is 5000 km wide? And, the DM is -6 then?

That doesn't make sense either. It seems like a ship would just fire the sandcaster twice and hardly ever get hit.

I see, in Starter Traveller, that the DM is per Range Band, so that's per 10,000 km.

Maybe it's talking about a hex filled with sand? It's a -3DM per hex the laser shot moves through to get to the target vessel?

That makes the most sense to me. I'm guessing that's it.

What throws me off is the "per 25mm"

What does that 2500 km measure? What does a -3 DM per 25mm mean?
 
Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Unfortunately, even with that paradigm, having 50kg in sand, protecting 100+ DTon ship from fire of a type that you can't detect until it actually hits you from an angle that you have close to correct when you have 2 ships maneuvering radically in 3D, is still precognition or magic sand.
That's if the sand is close to the hull. And, I know most definitions of sand in Traveller, especially CT, envisions a ship withing a "cloud" of the stuff.

But, what if the 50kg of sand is projected away from the ship? If it's grav-focussed far enough away from the ship (and most hexes on a Space Combat board are at least 10,000 km), then it would be like holding your thumb out to block out the flashlight beam on a dark night.
</font>[/QUOTE]Which would protect your eye, but not your chin, forehead or other eye. (Forget about the rest of your body.)

(Puts on speculation hat...)

Let's say the grav focussing is half a km from the ship. A 50 kg cloud.

On top of this, lasers move at the speed of light, but at space combat distances, high tech computers might have time to react in the miliseconds the between when the lasers are detected and the beam hits the ship--enough time to adjust sand focussing to place the cloud between the ship and the incoming fire.
Except your sensors are light speed, at best, the same as the laser. So your sensors will tell you that as laser has been fired at the same time that you get hit. (Light speed weapons, without FTL sensors will always hit you at the same time, or before your sensors can tell that you have been shot at.)

The sandcaster is not only a cannister launcher, but it also includes the grav focussing mechanism. And like starship missile defense, it acts automatically once a cannister is launched.

Now, the autodefense won't catch all incoming fire. It can't be quick enough to catch 100% of all lasers striking the ship. Sometimes the turret is on the far side of the ship as it changes facing, rolls, and brings other turrets to bear.
OK so in addition to the launcher itself, (Up to 3 per turret.) 12 canisters or missiles or some combination, the turret mechanism to rotate the turret and elevate the guns, Fire control, an operator seat, reloading mechanism, power runs, etc. we are going to add a Gravitic Tractor beam that can handle particles of sand and keep them, in accordance with computer control, between your ship and any potential ship firing on you, without getting in the way of your outbound weapons. This is all going to fit in a 1DTon worth of turret?


But, in CT, sand provides a -3 DM to hit. So, maybe when that DM is overcome, the sand wasn't placed in front of the incoming laser fire in time.
Oh yeah, aside from the sensors telling you when the laser hits, a light speed signal also has to travel from the computer to the turret and the turret has to swing, considerably slower than the speed of light, moving sand at some distance away from the ship (again with a speed of light limitation) to interdict and be ablated by laser fire that has already hit the ship.

I like it.

This is different from the magic time travelling sand that is fired as point defense against the same laser how?
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
This is different from the magic time travelling sand that is fired as point defense against the same laser how?
Hard to argue with your points.

The sand has got to encase the ship, or at least one side of the ship (or a partial side) for it to work, then.

CT allows this "sand cloud" to continue on on the same vector, should the ship "turn out of it". A ship could match vectors with a previously created sandcloud and use it again for cover--or even an enemy ship could do so as well. Other CT rules say that the sand cloud disappates once the ship leaves the cloud (lending credence to the grav focussing holding the cloud together).

Either way, it's got to be close to the hull, and since it's impossible for 50 kg of sand to cover the entire ship, it's got to be set up on the most opportune approach vector of laser fire.

If this is the case, then sand is really only good towards 1 target (or many targets close to each other). If being fired upon by two enemies from two different directions, it seems the sandcaster would be needed twice--once to put up a cloud for each incoming laser fire vector.
 
A few questions for the diehard techies.
- What sort of volume would you get from a 50kg canister round with low explosive charge in the centre?
- What sort of dispersal pattern would you get? (Disc / Sphere / Other)
- Also, if the material was coated ceramic shards in the rough trajectory between the attacker and the defender, wouldn't you get some temporary benefit?
 
No worries, Valarian. I'm asking the question so I know how to model the sandcasters on the Zaibatsu (if you hadn't already guessed). If you're happy with the depth charge idea that's good, because that's what the cylinders on the back of the ship were!

Ravs
 
Hi !

Originally posted by Valarian:
A few questions for the diehard techies.
- What sort of volume would you get from a 50kg canister round with low explosive charge in the centre?
- What sort of dispersal pattern would you get? (Disc / Sphere / Other)
Well, I could think of a pretty small charge which releases a narrow cone of sand directed in line between attacker and defender. Yeah, really a space shotgun.
In MT a sandcaster turret fires 6 canisters per minute and is perhaps able to keep up a somehow positioned sandcloud. So the shape and volume of the resulting sandcloud is completely dependent on the way those shots are fired and the way the ship itself accelerates/deccelerates, even if a single shot produces just something conic...


- Also, if the material was coated ceramic shards in the rough trajectory between the attacker and the defender, wouldn't you get some temporary benefit?
Why not ?

regards,

TE
 
Hardly, S4.

A cloud only 10m wide, if launched properly, can provide a reasonable probability of interdict of incoming beams from a single target.

In fact, the further out said cloud is, the better the coverage it provides.

Basic fencing physics: the cone of defense.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
Hardly, S4.

A cloud only 10m wide, if launched properly, can provide a reasonable probability of interdict of incoming beams from a single target.

In fact, the further out said cloud is, the better the coverage it provides.

Basic fencing physics: the cone of defense.
This is basically what I said when I used the "thumb to blot out the sun" comment. Then, that idea was blasted.

Now, you're saying it's "right".

No agreement here among the peeps.
 
Interesting note: High Guard, pg. 34, says that gunners on small craft like fighters are required for each different type of weapon. The pilot can serve as gunner for one type of weapon, but if you have a turret with three weapons in it, then it requires the pilot and two other gunners.

Except...sandcasters.

A turret on a fighter can have two beam lasers and a sandcaster, and the pilot can do all the work. Or, a turret could have a beam laser, a missile launcher, and a sandcaster, and it would only require the pilot and one other gunner.

...Which lends a little credence to the idea that sandcasters do act like chaff. Automatic. Computer controlled.
 
In Bk 2 combat, I'd say that sandcasters were never conceived as point-defense weapons; they're more akin to a smoke screen. It's an active defense inasmuch as someone needs to fire the sandcaster, but after that it's a passive defense as long as your vessel remains close to it and it hasn't dispersed. The actual mechanism that turns a 50kg can of tiny particles into a cloud that doesn't immediately disperse doesn't really concern me; in any case, unless I'm misreading the rules, the can has more than 15 minutes to do it.

In Bk 5, however, it is implied that sandcasters are some form of point defense weapon:

</font>
  • "Screens are passive ... as opposed to defensive weapons such as sandcasters ... " [p31]</font>
  • "If a weapon scores a hit, then it must penetrate first the defensive weapons and then the passive defenses. Defensive weapons (sandcasters &c) ... must be allocated against the hits of specific batteries." [p40, emphasis added]</font>
In addition, there is no mention in Bk 5 of sand hanging around after it's been fired, which implies that it is not being used as in Bk 2, and also makes sense given the Bk 5 vectorless combat system.

Obviously it's impossible for a defensive weapon to be fired against an enemy weapon that has already scored a hit, so there must be some chronological reordering going on for the sake of playability. That is, perhaps incoming fire from energy weapons is assumed, and so sandcasters are fired as a matter of course. (Bad analogy perhaps, but in BSG the capital ships seem to do a lot of aimless, high-volume slugthrowing on the off chance that it will hit an approaching missile or fighter.)

I looked to Striker for some hints there, and in Striker Bk 1, Rule 27 there is a discussion of the effects of obscuring smoke and aerosols on laser weapons fire, along with an interesting passage concerning "laser sensors", which:

</font>
  • "... will detect the fact that a laser is contacting the vehicle. [If a particular roll is made,] ... the unit firing the laser is automatically spotted. In addition, if the target vehicle is equipped with anti-laser aerosols, it may immediately discharge them if contacted by a non-weapons laser [ie a spotting laser]. Laser sensors will not be able to discharge aerosols against a weapons laser; the laser does its damage before the sensor can react." [p43, annotation added]</font>
While I hesitate to transpose Striker ground combat rules to Traveller starship combat, it's worth noting that the Striker coverage of the issue is quite sensible and specific with regard to the usage of anti-laser "chaff" and the manner in which incoming laser fire is detected.

In summary I'd say that the Bk 2 sandcaster is a different animal than the Bk 5 sandcaster. I see no issues with the use of sand in Bk 2 combat, as long as I can swat aside the (dull, for me) issue of how a sand cloud of sufficient size and density is actually formed. In Bk 5, the sandcaster's described role as a defensive weapon is somewhat problematic - an artifact perhaps of having to keep sandcasters in the game while dropping almost all ship movement. In any event I'd suggest that Bk 5 sandcasters are used quite differently than in Bk 2, and that perhaps Striker can offer some clueful details.
 
IMTU, sandcasters are S.A.N.D. casters (Standard All-purpose Noisemaking Decoy). The canister is a 50kg decoy that messes up enemy targeting and has limeted use as an anti-missile.
on second thought, maybe this isn't such a great idea. PAWs and meson guns are supposed to ignore sand, but S.A.N.D. would affect these just as much as it affects lasers and missiles.
 
Originally posted by FlightCommanderSolitude:
I see no issues with the use of sand in Bk 2 combat, as long as I can swat aside the (dull, for me) issue of how a sand cloud of sufficient size and density is actually formed.
If you apply the laser sighting idea, then this could easily be applied to Bk 2 sandcasters as well. The targeting laser is "detected", and either automatically (or the gunner, but I like the automatic part) the 50 kg cannister of sand is fired and placed in its path, explodes, blows sands, and obscures the incoming laser.

Seems like it should work just like Striker describes.

In any event I'd suggest that Bk 5 sandcasters are used quite differently than in Bk 2, and that perhaps Striker can offer some clueful details.
Why? Why can't sandcasters from Striker, Bk 2, and Bk 5 all operate the same: as automatic "chaff" type weapons that fire once laser targeting is detected on the hull?

As for Bk 2, maybe there's a turret override for the gunner to fire the sand manually (in addition to its normal fire). A good gunner will predict a certain path to the ship and create a sand close there. After all, the sand cloud, according to Bk 2, is a close that is 2,500 km in diameter.
 
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