What does a sandcaster look like?

[Supplement Four]

I looked up sandcasters in FF&S. Here's what it says:

Sandcasters fire cannisters of ablative crystals, commonly called "sand". Each sandcaster also contains a generator which creates a field used to manipulate the location and shape of the cloud of crystals. At early tech levels, these fields are electromagnetic, and require magnetic sand. More advanced systems supplement, then supplant, the magnetic manipulation with gravitic manipulation, which allows the use of more effectiv nonmagnetic crystals.

These clouds are placed in the path in incoming beam weapons, and the beams expend their energy burning through the cloud. The sandcaster operator uses integral laser warnig sensors to detect fire control locks and anticipate incoming beam fire.

That certainly supports Striker's take on sandcasters as well, and, the definition fits in perfectly with both Book 2 and Book 5 sandcasters.

In addition to what FCS reports above from the pages of Striker, that set of rules also has this to say about sandcasters:

Sandcasters [on the ground] may be used as a sort of giant shotgun. They attack all targets within their danger space, which is 40 meters wide at effective range, 80 meters wide at long range, and 120 meters wide at extreme range. Effective range in a standard atmosphere is 500 meters...Long range is 1000 meters...Extreme range is 2000 meters.

That tells us two things: (1) that the cannisters do, indeed, explode with a shotgun-cone-like effect; and (2) that in space, with the magnetic/gravitic focussing, a cloud 2,500 km is not that unbelieveable.




There we have it, ladies and gents. It's there in the rules--just not "obvious".

Sandcasters can be either automatically or manually triggered. They operate by detecting the targeting laser that preceeds the damage beam, firing a 50 kg drum of ablative crystals into a cone that is manipulated to [presumably gunner pre-set] shapes by the integral focussing system.

In automatic mode, they are a type of chaff device.

If a gunner predicts an incoming vector from an enemy, he can also manually fire and set the sand using the focussing system, protecting the ship with a cloud that can stretch 2,500 km.

From a 50 kg cannister, I'm sure that cloud isn't that dense. But, evidently, it's enough to net the ship a -3 DM to hit (in CT).

 

[Supplement Four]

Other references to sandcasters:

-FROM T20-
A sandcaster is not a weapon, but a fairly basic defense system designed to protect the craft tha fires it in a defensive envelopment of ceramic particles known as "sand". This sand absorbs laser energy and obscures the target vessel, giving a measure of defense against incoming missiles and energy weapons. Sand fired defensively by a ship will continue at the original course and speed of the ship. If the ship does not accelerate, decelerate, or change course, the ship will stay within the defensive cloud for a time until it drifts apart.




Book 2/Book 5/Stiker/Mayday, TNE/Brilliant Lances/Battle Rider/Fire Fusion & Steel, MT/Starhip Operator's Manual--all of these references basically say the same thing about sandcasters...what's been recorded above an in previous posts.




--GURPS Traveller--
One thing new GT adds is that a sandcaster must be targeted at a single enemy vessel. This rather lengthy description of sandcasters if from GURPS Starships: Sandcasters launch tiny reflective/ablative crystals, commonly called "sand", as a defense against lasers. These crystals are distant relatives of the tiny transparent spheres used to make street signs, reflective paint strips, and the like. Such a sphere will bounce a beam of light back in the direction of the source with a small amount of spread. The advanced crystals used in "sand" work similarly. When the laser first hits the crystal, part of the energy is reflected back in the general direction of the firing ship and the rest is absorbed. As the beads absorb more of the pulse, they heat up and melt quickly. However, in free fall a liquid will keep its spherical shape, so the liquid bead continues to reflect a portion of the energy away. Eventually, the bead will start boiling, the enegy absorption jumps dramatically, and it flashes into vapor. This vapor continues to absorb more of the laser pulse until it ionizes and forms plasma. How much the vapor absorbs, and how easily it ionizes, will depend on the composition of the bead.

Once it becomes a plasma, it may be very transparent or very absorbent depending on the composition and hte laser wavelength. Proper selection of crystal composition causes the plasma to be very opaque at common weapon-grade-laser wavelengths. At higher TLs, the efficiencey of the sand continues to increase.

The crystals are shot out of the sandcaster so that a cloud is placed between the ship and enemy vessels that might fire on the ship. A single canister of sand provides [enough protection for] a laser attack from a single ship; defending against multiple ships requires multiple clouds of sand. As the sand aborbs an attack, [it is] absorbed until it is gone. After each attack, the defender may choose to replenish the sand.

An enemy ship must be detected to be able to properly position the sand cloud. If the enemy isn't located before shooting, the ship won't be able to have sand in place. However, after the first hit, the defenders should know where the enemy is and be able to launch sand to protect against subsequent attacks.

Sandcasters must be targeted vs. a particular enemy vessel (or a group of vessels in very tight formation).

Obvioulsy, GT has a slightly different take on sandcasters...that they're "positioned" and not the result of an automatic "chaff" type result as noted in the other Traveller editions.

Note that the GT definition could easily be used in CT Bk 2 or Bk 5 space combat.

 

[Supplement Four]

What do I think?

I think all the definitions can be used.

Sandcasting is a type of technology. Different manufacturers, cultures, systems may use that technology differently.

I think in my CT game, it might be fun to have one ship have to position sand, as noted in GT. And, in the same combat, a ship may have a different sand system that acts automatically when the targeting laser is detected. Those systems are more advanced and have the added feature of the automatic dispersal. But, there's no reason why a gunner on the higher tech vessel couldn't do it the old-fashioned-GT way and take over manual control by manually positioning his sand cloud.

 

[Supplement Four]

One more thought on this...

About the 2,500 km dispersal sphere being achieved from a 50 kg drum of sand.

Remember, the sand is electromagnetically or graviticly focussed. The sand cloud disperses. The gunner set the focussing to allow a sheet of sand measuring 2,500 km.

This is not a dense sheet of sand at all. But, what happens, when the targeting laser is detected, the focussing mechanism instantly manipulates the sand to converge on the projected point where the laser shot will strike the ship, thus making that area more dense.

Think of the sand cloud as the strike zone on a batter. The catcher is the sensor. When the pitch is thrown, the catcher can predict where in the zone the ball will come through--not with 100% accuracy. It is there where the catcher puts his glove in order to catch the ball.

Now, speed this up to the speed of light. Instantaneous. The sand is very close to the ship relative to where the enemy is. And, the laser beam, with targeting beam moving in front of it, still has to travel at the speed of light over a great distance to hit the target vessel.

The focussing device on the defensive ship might have enough time (not always because the -3 DM is sometimes overcome) to congregate the not-so-dense sand in a predicted location so that when the laser beam strikes, it's trudging through dense sand.

Sounds very "high tech" and Traveller-y to me.

I think this just became my new definition for my game.

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
If you apply the laser sighting idea, then this could easily be applied to Bk 2 sandcasters as well. The targeting laser is "detected", and either automatically (or the gunner, but I like the automatic part) the 50 kg cannister of sand is fired and placed in its path, explodes, blows sands, and obscures the incoming laser.

Seems like it should work just like Striker describes.

There are a couple of issues, which may or may not be problematic, depending on your level of dogmatism:

</font>

• This assumes such a thing as a "targeting laser" precedes any energy weapon volley. I'm fully willing to believe whatever a GM tells me, but as far as the rules go, this is sort of a fuzzy area. I prefer the notion that ship crew will need to decide when to deploy sand, as part of a larger tactical strategy.</font>
• The Bk 2 ordnance rules imply that sandcasters take a while to work, ie they aren't instantaneous but rather are considered "deployed" after a full round has gone by: 1000 seconds! This would, of course, limit their effectiveness against a light-speed weapon.</font>

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

Well, in my interpretation the process of firing is not finished with one shot of a battery, but merely with a more or less continuus firing.
In MT the ROF of a laser turret is given with 30 per minute.
So during a long combat round of 20 minutes the first hits by a laser are both, a sign for the attacker, that he really hit the target and that he could fine tune his turrets (yep, a kind of full power laser sighting), and a notable sign for the defender, that its perhaps time to spit out a bit of sand to weaken further hits.

I would not fellow that ordnance rule implication, as at least in MT all rules for sandcaster describe them as an instant weapon/defense, either in space combat or in ground scale combat.

Regards,

TE

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by FlightCommanderSolitude:
This assumes such a thing as a "targeting laser" precedes any energy weapon volley. I'm fully willing to believe whatever a GM tells me, but as far as the rules go, this is sort of a fuzzy area.

It's not "fuzzy" in Striker. Since they're both CT rulesets, it would seem that the same idea holds with Book 2 (just not mentioned).

I prefer the notion that ship crew will need to decide when to deploy sand, as part of a larger tactical strategy.

I like that too. It's obviously CT's take on it. The GURPS Traveller version above makes a lot of sense with regard to CT.

The Bk 2 ordnance rules imply that sandcasters take a while to work, ie they aren't instantaneous but rather are considered "deployed" after a full round has gone by: 1000 seconds! This would, of course, limit their effectiveness against a light-speed weapon.

Agreed. An argument can be made that ground sandcasters on vehicles use the Striker "targeting laser" defintion. And, the GURPS version is used in space.

I like both ideas.

You take away the targeting laser, though, and again you have the head scratcher how 50 kg of sand spreads for 2,500 km and still has the density to matter when a laser passes through it.

I kinda like my idea above where the sand focussing mechanism makes the sand screen more dense at the point it predicts the laser will pass through the sand.




More figuring...

A light second is 300,000 km. For easy figuring, we'll put a enemy and his target at a range of 300,000 km from each other.

That means it takes one second for the targeting laser to travel to the target and another second for it to return to the enemy with the info.

If the enemy ship fires immediately (meaning there's no time-lag for last second computations or corrections), then it still takes the laser another full second to travel back to the target ship.

So, at the minimum, a target vessel has two seconds to re-focus sand for incoming fire. And, it takes the enemy ship three second to get one salvo off.

Of course, this will vary depending on range between the two. Ships can easily be less than 300,000 km apart for a space combat. Heck, they could even be 10,000 km or less apart.

So, the question is: Can a target ship launch and focus-position sand in less than two seconds?

Hmmm... I dunno. That's pretty quick.

High tech? Maybe. But, Traveller-tech?

I don't think so.

So, given this, it lends a lot of credence to the idea that the sand cloud must already be in place for the focussing mechanism to work, making the cloud more dense in a certain spot.

So, I'm like you. After thinking all this out, I'm thinking the sand cloud must already be dispersed.




Also, if you go with the GT idea that each sand cloud must be matched up to a particular enemy vessel, that could make a lot of sense with regard to Book 2 as well.

Although I read Book 2 as a big cloud of sand that a ship can dive into and out of as is described under T20 above, the GT rule might acutally be a better rule.

It would certainly make sense why a ship carries so many sandcaster canisters.

Heck, with the idea of sand-cloud-covers-entire-ship, most ship would need, what, three canisters...especially if they can dive back into the sand later?

If you need one cannister per ship firing at you, then you need more in your ship's stores.




Hmmm....this is all good grey matter tickling.




You know, Book 2 says you can dive in and dive out like T20 says. Mayday says you can't dive in and out. But, Mayday is on a bigger scale than Book 2. I always figured, using that bigger scale, finding the sand cloud would be a bitch.

Mayday rounds are 100 minutes long, and the hexes are 300,000 km. Compare that to Starter Traveller (Book 2 with hexes), with rounds 1000 seconds long, with hexes equal to 10,000 km.

I can buy that you can re-enter a sand cloud in one, and not re-enter in the other.




As far as Bk 5 goes, it can be assumed that sandcasters on big ships fire sand and focus it as best as possible, providing the defense--that's it's not an automatic "chaff" type affair. This would be done automatically during the battel formation step. The scale of High Guard does not count actual missiles or sandcaster cannisters. It can be assumed they have enough for the entire encounter.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
In MT the ROF of a laser turret is given with 30 per minute.

I've always assumed this type of thing in all versions of Traveller space combat.

Even in Bk 2, when a PC rolls to-hit for his gunner character, I don't take that as a single pressing of the firing stud. We're talking about a 15+ minute combat round. There's a lot of light being shot over at the enemy.

That one 8+ to-hit throw represents several shots of the weapon, from the turret...not just a single shot.

I think this is obvious in High Guard.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
I would not fellow that ordnance rule implication, as at least in MT all rules for sandcaster describe them as an instant weapon/defense, either in space combat or in ground scale combat.

I looked at MT, and I didn't see this. I read the MT definition and that in the Starship Operator's Manual.

Both MT descriptions were very vague about how the sandcaster worked--well open to interpretation.

More lengthy discussion on the sandcaster, as I posted above, can be found in FF&S, T20, the several CT bits, and the long section of GT: Starships.

But, nowhere in MT could I find a definitive, or even a less-than-vague, description of the sandcaster.

Can you point me to a better MT description?

 

[Dirk Desiato]

Flykiller, also IMTU I don't use particle beams or meson cannon. I stick to Book 2 as much as possible. Yep, I am a "Small Ship Universe" kind of guy. Although a 1000T ship does not seem small to me!

 

[TheEngineer]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TheEngineer:
I would not fellow that ordnance rule implication, as at least in MT all rules for sandcaster describe them as an instant weapon/defense, either in space combat or in ground scale combat.

I looked at MT, and I didn't see this. I read the MT definition and that in the Starship Operator's Manual.

Both MT descriptions were very vague about how the sandcaster worked--well open to interpretation.

More lengthy discussion on the sandcaster, as I posted above, can be found in FF&S, T20, the several CT bits, and the long section of GT: Starships.

But, nowhere in MT could I find a definitive, or even a less-than-vague, description of the sandcaster.

Can you point me to a better MT description? </font>[/QUOTE]Hi S4 !

Well, I would take the pretty defined weapons stats for sandcasters when used in personal combat.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">From MT Players manual
Ammo Pen Max Autofire Danger Signa- Difficulty
Notes Rds Atten Dmg Range Targets Space ture Recoil As
Sandcaster 0 0 20/2 10 V Long - 15+ Low Med FC TL</pre>[/QUOTE]Here you got pentration values, ranges, danger space info, of course the ROF as well as construction stats.
I would not call the overall sandcaster description as vague. Maybe those devices just are somehow trivial

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">From MT Ref manual
Sandcasters: Sandcasters project a granular agent which obstructs light; when they are fired, the agent interferes with incoming laser or energy weapon fire.</pre>[/QUOTE]Putting it together the sandcaster really appears as a pretty instantly working giant shotgun

Anyway, what I wonder a bit about is the power requirement of 1 MW per turret (well, of course a ultra-fast reacting targeting system could suck some power) and the short range (might be better in space).

But I agree, there is always some space left for interpretation...

regards,

TE

 

[TheEngineer]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TheEngineer:
In MT the ROF of a laser turret is given with 30 per minute.

I've always assumed this type of thing in all versions of Traveller space combat.

Even in Bk 2, when a PC rolls to-hit for his gunner character, I don't take that as a single pressing of the firing stud. We're talking about a 15+ minute combat round. There's a lot of light being shot over at the enemy.

That one 8+ to-hit throw represents several shots of the weapon, from the turret...not just a single shot.

I think this is obvious in High Guard. </font>[/QUOTE]When did the explicit ROF information for starship weapons came up ?
Was there something similar in CT or Striker ?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">From MT Players manual
Ammo Pen Max Autofire Danger Signa- Difficulty
Notes Rds Atten Dmg Range Targets Space ture Recoil As
Sandcaster 0 0 20/2 10 V Long - 15+ Low Med FC TL</pre>

Here you got pentration values, ranges, danger space info, of course the ROF as well as construction stats.
I would not call the overall sandcaster description as vague. Maybe those devices just are somehow trivial

[qb][/quote]That stuff is just what is listed (and posted above) from Striker, re-statted for MT. That would apply to the sandcaster used on the ground in an atmosphere, as described in Striker.

[qb]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">From MT Ref manual
Sandcasters: Sandcasters project a granular agent which obstructs light; when they are fired, the agent interferes with incoming laser or energy weapon fire.</pre>

Putting it together the sandcaster really appears as a pretty instantly working giant shotgun

[/quote]All the versions of Traveller basically say this. That sand is an ablative crystal. That it obstructs incoming laser fire.

But MT is very vague about the weapon's use. It doesn't talk about the sand cloud being manipulated by a focussing instrument, or other stuff like that.

In reality, MT's descriptions are taken, word-for-word, cut-n-pasted, right from CT. There's actually more description in CT than there is in MT.

TNE stepped in later and added a little "logic" to the system with the targeting laser bit.

T4 is just copied straight from CT.

T20 is vague, relying on CT.

And, GT is really the only edition (so far) to go to any length explaining how sandcasters work.

So, your best three sources for sandcaster info is the stuff in CT, TNE, and GT.

The others, including MT, are all very vague.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

Now, what do You need to know about those sandcasters, thats not covered by the rules ?

I still got the impression, that they are just plain simple devices and thats theres not much to talk about

Starting stuff like grav focussing is just a unnecessary overcomplication IMHO.

Regards,

TE

 

[Kharum1]

Has anyone thought that the sand may get caught in the gravity well of the ship and that is why it hangs with it for a period of time? Just a thought.

 

[flykiller]

Has anyone thought that the sand may get caught in the gravity well of the ship and that is why it hangs with it for a period of time?

"That's no moon. That's a space station."

 

[aramis]

Yes, and rejected ship's gravity holding it.

Why? Because that gravity (from the ship, not generated Artificial Gravity) is measured at most in microgees (10E-6). It's meaningless in the timeframe of combat, let alone any form of maneuver.

 

[Commander Drax]

MegaTraveller and TNE makes it clear that the sand is highly reflective and magnetised crystals as well as ablative materials, incoming targeting lasers (standard as part of the on mount fire control system of the attacking weapon) are used to detect attacking fire control locks from enemy ships. This gives the turret gunner the firing solution needed to fire the sand into space between the incoming laser fire (fired after the attacking ship has a successful lock). An electromagnetic field is used to hold the cloud of 'sand particles' in place, so that they can disperse and burn up some of the energy of the incoming beam. Apparently incoming lasers (invisible in space) meeting sand particles give off a pretty good light show.

 

[BetterThanLife]

If a turret can control that cloud of sand, as a secondary function, in addition to the launchers, why couldn't it deflect a Missile? Repulsors do that, yet they aren't available as a turret. Sand canisters and missiles are the same size yet wouldn't missiles be easier to deflect than moving around or even holding in place all those grains of sand scattered across such a wide area. Sorry I am not buying the whole cloud of sand controlled from a turret. In fact I am not going to buy a 50 kg canister of sand (at 1/20th or 1/100th of a DTon) that can produce a cloud big enough to obscure a 100 ton vessel, much less a 500,000+ ton vessel, there simply isn't enough volume, regardless of how tightly the material is packed into that canister, to give it the kind of coverage required to produce such a cloud. And a single canister of sand produces exactly the same level of protection for the launching ship, regardless of the size of the launching ship.

To have any effect the sand canister would have to be fired at the right time precisely down the path of the incoming laser. (And we are back to precognitive sand.)

 

[Gruffty]

I've pictured this as a canister charge, like a depth charge, filled with ceramic glass material. It gets launched from the ship on a trajectory, then explodes forming a temporary barrier between the attacker and the target.

That sounds very much like its intended method of operation in CT.