What he say??? Languages in Classic Traveller

[Supplement Four]

Another Cool White Dwarf rule...

Each character gets a number of Language Fluency Levels equal to the character's EDU.

Fluency levels work just like skill levels. Fluency-5 in a language means that you are (or just short of) a native speaker of he language. Fluency-1 means you can pick out a few words and get by.

Each Classic Traveller character must devote his first 5 Fluency levels to his own native language. For characters with EDU scores greater than 5, this means that those characters have extra Fluency levels they can spend on other languages (he can also improve his Fluency in his native tongue to higher than Fluency-5, or he can save extra Fluency levels in order to learn languages later in the game).

Fluency level can be used as a DM on a roll to understand jargon, or whispers, or rolls to communicate with people who speak a different language (provided the character's Fluency is in a language similar to that being spoken).




My Thoughts...

I think this is an excellent rule. I would only add that if a character also has the Liasion skill that maybe it's skill level could increase a character's total number of Fluency levels.

I think the Linguistics skill would also definitley increase a character's total number of Fluency levels.

Liasion? Maybe--might be appropriate.

Linguisics? Definitely--does increase Fluency rating.

 

[Supplement Four]

Another Cool White Dwarf rule...

Each character gets a number of Language Fluency Levels equal to the character's EDU.

Fluency levels work just like skill levels. Fluency-5 in a language means that you are (or just short of) a native speaker of he language. Fluency-1 means you can pick out a few words and get by.

Each Classic Traveller character must devote his first 5 Fluency levels to his own native language. For characters with EDU scores greater than 5, this means that those characters have extra Fluency levels they can spend on other languages (he can also improve his Fluency in his native tongue to higher than Fluency-5, or he can save extra Fluency levels in order to learn languages later in the game).

Fluency level can be used as a DM on a roll to understand jargon, or whispers, or rolls to communicate with people who speak a different language (provided the character's Fluency is in a language similar to that being spoken).




My Thoughts...

I think this is an excellent rule. I would only add that if a character also has the Liasion skill that maybe it's skill level could increase a character's total number of Fluency levels.

I think the Linguistics skill would also definitley increase a character's total number of Fluency levels.

Liasion? Maybe--might be appropriate.

Linguisics? Definitely--does increase Fluency rating.

 

[BlackBat242]

Many persons, in real life, have near-fluency in several languages without a very high Education, Intelligence, or any specific Linguistics (foreign language) training.

Look at many Europeans, for example. Even "high school" graduates who do not qualify for University frequently are fluent [5] in their own language (i.e. French), and can read & write at a sufficient level to be employed [3] in German & English... and can also get by [2] in Spanish & Dutch.

That is 15 points for a person with an EDU of ~8-9, and no Linguistics skill at all, as he learned it all from friends/neighbors (who were natives of other EU nations, and were in his country to study/work) as he grew up.

 

[BlackBat242]

Many persons, in real life, have near-fluency in several languages without a very high Education, Intelligence, or any specific Linguistics (foreign language) training.

Look at many Europeans, for example. Even "high school" graduates who do not qualify for University frequently are fluent [5] in their own language (i.e. French), and can read & write at a sufficient level to be employed [3] in German & English... and can also get by [2] in Spanish & Dutch.

That is 15 points for a person with an EDU of ~8-9, and no Linguistics skill at all, as he learned it all from friends/neighbors (who were natives of other EU nations, and were in his country to study/work) as he grew up.

 

[Merxiless]

French - 5
EuroBizLingo - 3

 

[Merxiless]

French - 5
EuroBizLingo - 3

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BlackBat242:
Many persons, in real life, have near-fluency in several languages without a very high Education, Intelligence, or any specific Linguistics (foreign language) training.

There are two ways to consider EDU in Traveller. One, as the description says, is that EDU is a reflection of actual education level achieved. An EDU 10 might be a College Master's degree (not sure, just guessing).

Then, there's the implied use of EDU we see in the rules. A Barbarian character is rolled up using Supplement 4. Player rolls a 10 EDU, and that EDU is never changed in chargen.

Does this mean that this low tech person who's lived his whole life actually went to college?

Nope. Not in MTU. Not in many TU's. Not even implied in the OTU.

So, a GM has to pick which way he'll play EDU. Like the description. Or, like the implied meaning.

I go with the second option.

And, in response to your remark above, I'd say that there are many people out there with high EDU's who dropped out of high school...and speak many lanugages.

-S4

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BlackBat242:
Many persons, in real life, have near-fluency in several languages without a very high Education, Intelligence, or any specific Linguistics (foreign language) training.

There are two ways to consider EDU in Traveller. One, as the description says, is that EDU is a reflection of actual education level achieved. An EDU 10 might be a College Master's degree (not sure, just guessing).

Then, there's the implied use of EDU we see in the rules. A Barbarian character is rolled up using Supplement 4. Player rolls a 10 EDU, and that EDU is never changed in chargen.

Does this mean that this low tech person who's lived his whole life actually went to college?

Nope. Not in MTU. Not in many TU's. Not even implied in the OTU.

So, a GM has to pick which way he'll play EDU. Like the description. Or, like the implied meaning.

I go with the second option.

And, in response to your remark above, I'd say that there are many people out there with high EDU's who dropped out of high school...and speak many lanugages.

-S4

 

[sgbrown]

The problem is it still assumes Language and general education (formal or informal) will be at the same level. In reality, that's just not the case. For a game system it may work well as an approximation - but allowing the GM flexibility to switch these up a bit certainly makes sense in my book.

Examples of why I don't think this matches reality:
a) I know numerous US engineers who are highly educated and knowledgeable in multiple fields (ie they have high edu in both formal and informal sense) but speak only English fluently with a mear smattering of Spainish or French from school. We simply aren't called on to use anything other than English very often.
b) On the other hand, I've met numerous villagers in Belize that speak different dialects of Mayan (sometimes 3 or more), Spainish, and English fluently (reading and writing may be another story.) These people don't have much formal education and even on an informal aspect wouldn't be considered educated other than in farming and village life. Yet they speak numerous languages. Largely because they deal with people who use these languages on a daily basis.

My thoughts are that for game purposes EDU and INT should be considered in determining MAX language fluency potential - but actual fluency shouldn't be a direct tie.

 

[sgbrown]

The problem is it still assumes Language and general education (formal or informal) will be at the same level. In reality, that's just not the case. For a game system it may work well as an approximation - but allowing the GM flexibility to switch these up a bit certainly makes sense in my book.

Examples of why I don't think this matches reality:
a) I know numerous US engineers who are highly educated and knowledgeable in multiple fields (ie they have high edu in both formal and informal sense) but speak only English fluently with a mear smattering of Spainish or French from school. We simply aren't called on to use anything other than English very often.
b) On the other hand, I've met numerous villagers in Belize that speak different dialects of Mayan (sometimes 3 or more), Spainish, and English fluently (reading and writing may be another story.) These people don't have much formal education and even on an informal aspect wouldn't be considered educated other than in farming and village life. Yet they speak numerous languages. Largely because they deal with people who use these languages on a daily basis.

My thoughts are that for game purposes EDU and INT should be considered in determining MAX language fluency potential - but actual fluency shouldn't be a direct tie.

 

[BlackBat242]

What I do is to give a maximum numberof languages of Int/2 (plus 1 native tongue), and a maximum fluency rating of Edu/2 (round down).

Any half-languages can only be learned to a level of 1.

The character always has maximum fluency in his/her native language.

Any additional languages are dealt with during chargen & game play as follows:

1. Before starting the first career set, determine if the being's home-world (or ship, if ship-born/raised) speaks other than Galanglic. If yes, then that language is the being's native tongue.

2. Determine where the being spent his/her career(s)... if the dominant language there differs from the native tongue, then the being learns that language at a fluency of at least 3.

3. Allow the player the option of choosing at least one other language (this is not a requirement, just an option) to reflect having learned to deal with another species or culture. This should reflect the area in which the being's careers took place.

4. Always have the player reserve 1 language slot for later use.


Fluency level equivilents:
1. is familiar enough with the structure and writing to read/write (poorly) with the aid of translating materials, and to speak/understand spoken statements slowly (also with the aid of translating materials).

2. minimum necessary for basic communication... about what a ~10 year-old human uses. Just below the normal "literate" classification.

3. moderately educated... literate enough to hold most non-technical/non-public interaction jobs. About the same as the average 15-year-old human. Can pass for a native on 10+.

4. well educated. About the average high school graduate (pre-1980 standards... about a college freshman nowdays). Can pass for a native on 7+.

5. very educated. The average college graduate is here. Can pass for a native automatically.

6. extremely educated. Understands nuances and idiosyncracies of the language well, and has an extensive literary understanding.


Example: Hfarg Longrun is an Aslan (Int 9, Edu 8) who grew up on a world populated by both Aslan and Solomani. As the two peoples regularly co-mingled, and as the Solomani population was the larger, he learned both Aslan and Solomani (Terran Standard) as "native languages". He has a fluency of 4 in both Aslan and T.S. (average for most). After he left school, he signed on with a Merchant line that operated in both Solomani and Imperial space, and spent most of the next 3 terms in Ipmerial areas. Since his job (cargo specialist & later cargomaster) required considerable interaction with speakers of Galanglic, he developed a fluency of 3 in that language. One of the crew was a Droyne (outcast), and he learned to speak a little Droyne (2). This leaves him with 1.5 languages... which means he can learn to read/write 1 more language without restriction, and to muddle through another (but must always use translating material for this one).

 

[BlackBat242]

What I do is to give a maximum numberof languages of Int/2 (plus 1 native tongue), and a maximum fluency rating of Edu/2 (round down).

Any half-languages can only be learned to a level of 1.

The character always has maximum fluency in his/her native language.

Any additional languages are dealt with during chargen & game play as follows:

1. Before starting the first career set, determine if the being's home-world (or ship, if ship-born/raised) speaks other than Galanglic. If yes, then that language is the being's native tongue.

2. Determine where the being spent his/her career(s)... if the dominant language there differs from the native tongue, then the being learns that language at a fluency of at least 3.

3. Allow the player the option of choosing at least one other language (this is not a requirement, just an option) to reflect having learned to deal with another species or culture. This should reflect the area in which the being's careers took place.

4. Always have the player reserve 1 language slot for later use.


Fluency level equivilents:
1. is familiar enough with the structure and writing to read/write (poorly) with the aid of translating materials, and to speak/understand spoken statements slowly (also with the aid of translating materials).

2. minimum necessary for basic communication... about what a ~10 year-old human uses. Just below the normal "literate" classification.

3. moderately educated... literate enough to hold most non-technical/non-public interaction jobs. About the same as the average 15-year-old human. Can pass for a native on 10+.

4. well educated. About the average high school graduate (pre-1980 standards... about a college freshman nowdays). Can pass for a native on 7+.

5. very educated. The average college graduate is here. Can pass for a native automatically.

6. extremely educated. Understands nuances and idiosyncracies of the language well, and has an extensive literary understanding.


Example: Hfarg Longrun is an Aslan (Int 9, Edu 8) who grew up on a world populated by both Aslan and Solomani. As the two peoples regularly co-mingled, and as the Solomani population was the larger, he learned both Aslan and Solomani (Terran Standard) as "native languages". He has a fluency of 4 in both Aslan and T.S. (average for most). After he left school, he signed on with a Merchant line that operated in both Solomani and Imperial space, and spent most of the next 3 terms in Ipmerial areas. Since his job (cargo specialist & later cargomaster) required considerable interaction with speakers of Galanglic, he developed a fluency of 3 in that language. One of the crew was a Droyne (outcast), and he learned to speak a little Droyne (2). This leaves him with 1.5 languages... which means he can learn to read/write 1 more language without restriction, and to muddle through another (but must always use translating material for this one).

 

[BlackBat242]

Oh yes, the fluency level of languages known may be raised during post-chargen play, is the language is studied or used by the character to a significant degree.

Also, each level of Linguistics skill either raises the fluency of a known language by 2 (or 2 by 1 each), or allows the learning of a new language (level 1 to start). Languages acquired in this way may exceed the number of languages allowed by the Int/2 rule.

 

[BlackBat242]

Oh yes, the fluency level of languages known may be raised during post-chargen play, is the language is studied or used by the character to a significant degree.

Also, each level of Linguistics skill either raises the fluency of a known language by 2 (or 2 by 1 each), or allows the learning of a new language (level 1 to start). Languages acquired in this way may exceed the number of languages allowed by the Int/2 rule.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
a) I know numerous US engineers who are highly educated and knowledgeable in multiple fields (ie they have high edu in both formal and informal sense) but speak only English fluently with a mear smattering of Spainish or French from school. We simply aren't called on to use anything other than English very often.

Just because a character can use his EDU for Fluency, doesn't mean he has to. In fact, I'd say that many traveller don't speak much more than their native tounge and the local dialect of Anglic.

If you've got a player who wants to speak a few different languages, then I think the mechanic works nicely to use as context for the character's total number of languages.

The rule is flexible. It's a GM eye-ballin' technique.

I like it.

And, there's nothing stopping a GM from making exceptions to the rule. If local natives are very cosmoploitan among the various local tribes and culutures, then make an exception for them. Maybe they speak 2x Fluency for the local dialects and 0 Fluency outside of their world.

-S4

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
a) I know numerous US engineers who are highly educated and knowledgeable in multiple fields (ie they have high edu in both formal and informal sense) but speak only English fluently with a mear smattering of Spainish or French from school. We simply aren't called on to use anything other than English very often.

Just because a character can use his EDU for Fluency, doesn't mean he has to. In fact, I'd say that many traveller don't speak much more than their native tounge and the local dialect of Anglic.

If you've got a player who wants to speak a few different languages, then I think the mechanic works nicely to use as context for the character's total number of languages.

The rule is flexible. It's a GM eye-ballin' technique.

I like it.

And, there's nothing stopping a GM from making exceptions to the rule. If local natives are very cosmoploitan among the various local tribes and culutures, then make an exception for them. Maybe they speak 2x Fluency for the local dialects and 0 Fluency outside of their world.

-S4

 

[robject]

Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
The problem is it still assumes Language and general education (formal or informal) will be at the same level. In reality, that's just not the case. For a game system it may work well as an approximation ...

b) On the other hand, I've met numerous villagers in Belize that speak different dialects of Mayan (sometimes 3 or more), Spanish, and English fluently (reading and writing may be another story.) These people don't have much formal education ...

Don't forget: many of them also speak German, of all things. So, many of these Belizeans who are essentially rural farmers speak a Maya dialect or two, Spanish, English, and German.

But they've learned these languages from a young age, through necessary interactions with others who speak these languages natively. Surely that can be treated as some kind of hands-on training.

My thoughts are that players will, as a minimum, know a homeworld language, the domain's variant form of Anglic, and an official Vilani trade pidgin. Thus they can talk to locals, talk with those in the domain's political sphere, and talk with those in the domain's economic sphere.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
The problem is it still assumes Language and general education (formal or informal) will be at the same level. In reality, that's just not the case. For a game system it may work well as an approximation ...

b) On the other hand, I've met numerous villagers in Belize that speak different dialects of Mayan (sometimes 3 or more), Spanish, and English fluently (reading and writing may be another story.) These people don't have much formal education ...

Don't forget: many of them also speak German, of all things. So, many of these Belizeans who are essentially rural farmers speak a Maya dialect or two, Spanish, English, and German.

But they've learned these languages from a young age, through necessary interactions with others who speak these languages natively. Surely that can be treated as some kind of hands-on training.

My thoughts are that players will, as a minimum, know a homeworld language, the domain's variant form of Anglic, and an official Vilani trade pidgin. Thus they can talk to locals, talk with those in the domain's political sphere, and talk with those in the domain's economic sphere.

 

[Ranger]

My thoughts are that players will, as a minimum, know a homeworld language, the domain's variant form of Anglic, and an official Vilani trade pidgin. Thus they can talk to locals, talk with those in the domain's political sphere, and talk with those in the domain's economic sphere.

I think this pretty well sums it up. I have played around with language rules in my home brew as well, and they usually end up being much more complicated then any payoff you will get out of them. In considering what langauges a PC would know, I think you have to take the attitude that they are not "average" individuals to beging with. They are part of that very small part of society that "Travels." Thus, giving them basic knowledge of Galanglic, Vilani Trade, and a home language (I'd let them pick). I would say one skill level per tour of duty. If they were military, then Galanglic will be favored. If they were Merchents, then Vilani Trade will be favored. Let them pick each term, but always make military take Galanglic first and Merchents take Trade Vilani first. After that, the favored must always be higher than the other.

The fun part comes in game. most worlds are going to speak a langague alien to the players once you get out of the startown environs. Encourage the players to higher a local translator NPC. That lets the GM have direct input to the characters and guide them along. Of course the motivations and actions of the translators on any given world will vary, so the GM can mix it up and keep the players on their toes as well.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Ranger]

My thoughts are that players will, as a minimum, know a homeworld language, the domain's variant form of Anglic, and an official Vilani trade pidgin. Thus they can talk to locals, talk with those in the domain's political sphere, and talk with those in the domain's economic sphere.

I think this pretty well sums it up. I have played around with language rules in my home brew as well, and they usually end up being much more complicated then any payoff you will get out of them. In considering what langauges a PC would know, I think you have to take the attitude that they are not "average" individuals to beging with. They are part of that very small part of society that "Travels." Thus, giving them basic knowledge of Galanglic, Vilani Trade, and a home language (I'd let them pick). I would say one skill level per tour of duty. If they were military, then Galanglic will be favored. If they were Merchents, then Vilani Trade will be favored. Let them pick each term, but always make military take Galanglic first and Merchents take Trade Vilani first. After that, the favored must always be higher than the other.

The fun part comes in game. most worlds are going to speak a langague alien to the players once you get out of the startown environs. Encourage the players to higher a local translator NPC. That lets the GM have direct input to the characters and guide them along. Of course the motivations and actions of the translators on any given world will vary, so the GM can mix it up and keep the players on their toes as well.

Just my thoughts.