E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
OK, let me clarify - first, I wasn't asking this to troll. My hypothesis (which I didn't state at the start) was that people would go absolutely mental if MM stopped all development of T5 (and rules out making any further systems for that matter) - as mental as some of them have gone over the changes that occured in TNE. That's as far as the comparison with TNE goes - the fact that situations are different is irrelevant, what's important for this question is the reaction of people to the news.
So far I'm rather surprised that people would just be 'disappointed' and would just shrug their shoulders and move on. I've had the feeling that some people around here feel like they're 'owed' T5 because T4 didn't work out and they don't see GT and T20 as valid replacements, so I presumed that people would be a lot more frothy about it.
Though to be honest, I'm not particularly convinced that the reaction would be so subdued, given the Traveller community. If people react so violently to a change in their favourite RPG background (ie MT/TNE) then I find it difficult to believe that they'd be so restrained if they heard that a system that some have been waiting for many years was suddenly no longer in development.
Gallowglass
SOC-12
OK, let me clarify - first, I wasn't asking this to troll. </font>[/QUOTE]And I probably over re-acted and was, reading back, in a foul and rather terse mood yesterday (I blame the heat, which is a feeble excuse I know). My apologies for being Mr Grumpy yesterday and I shall try and be more reasonable today!
Hmm, I'm not sure it is entirely irrelveant to peoples reactions - it's the difference between a favourite band retiring (no more live gigs, ever) and most of the band retiring but one former member launching a new band with the same name but performing a radically different style of music (and re-working the former line-ups songs in the new style)#; although I can see that your primary interest is more in how focused people are on T5 than drawing any conclusions about T:TNE.
# This is how I believe a significant percentage of Traveller fans felt about the T:TNE situation - whether that perception is correct, or matches what GDW felt they were doing are separate issues.
Well, I do think that the different circumstances contribute here, but let's be honest - it's easy to be dispassionate about something so clearly flagged as a hypothetical, if MM really stopped T5 developmentI think we'd both expect a stronger reaction, even if no more approbrium was directed at MM.
Can't say that I have noticed that attitude particularly, although the tribalism re rule systems / settings can get pretty heated and certainly aspects of both the T:TNE and T4 situations brought out the negative aspects in some fans. And again, I think part of the motor that drives the froth is actual events - so whilst people like to think they will be calm now they might well get a little hotter under the collar if it actually happens.
True, although in some ways something endlessly deferred and eventually lost is less painful than something held but subsequently changed: as an analogy, C J Cherryh's Chronicles of Morgaine is a fabulous trilogy (IMO), and if you came across it first the fourth book is really quite good. But for fans of the trilogy, it would in many ways have been better if she had never written the fourth book, as that would have left untouched the possibilities implied by the end of the trilogy. By writing more she closed out possibilities, inevitably contradicting at least some fan aspirations for the future of the central characters.
At least whilst it is effectively vapour ware (harsh, but it doesn't have a delivery date) T5 can't be a definite disappointment...
cheers,
Nick Middleton
mad13142000
SOC-13
Whatever...
MWM isn't 65 yet - IT's time to get the nose to the grindwheel. Shackles are not to be released until T5 has been in at least 2nd printing...
Then he can retire and spend his days travelling around in a big Airstream...
-MADDog
MWM isn't 65 yet - IT's time to get the nose to the grindwheel. Shackles are not to be released until T5 has been in at least 2nd printing...
Then he can retire and spend his days travelling around in a big Airstream...
-MADDog
And people bitten by the promises (god, I work in software development, I understand empty promises from both ends of the spectrum) will have already mentally mitigated expectations. Something that actually appears and that is bad will have had hopes up high and then crushed them. Something 'alleged' to appear, and put off, then put on, then delayed... well.... people have maybe learned not to get their hopes up. Sure the reaction might be a bit more pronounced if the hypothetical point were not hypothetical, but even then I think it'd be less than the TNE backlash. Why? Because by not releasing something you aren't butchering a prior thing... and no one can really say Marc hasn't pulled his weight over the years. So if he opted to retire from it, then few would get really afroth. (Some always do). And the other thing is, if he retired with class and let the IP go into the hands of people likely to do useful things with it (or made it public domain!), then he wouldn't generate the anti-Sanger backlash that you see on TML and CotI.....
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
I wonder if people who knew about it said the same about T4 before it came out...
Gallowglass
SOC-12
I wonder if people who knew about it said the same about T4 before it came out... </font>[/QUOTE]Well I remember the big spread in the UK magazine Arcane (RIP) about Marc Miller's Traveller which was pretty much what re-sparked my interest in the OTU and mainstream Traveller rules. And even then I was sceptical about the dice mechanic (more an aversion to bucket 'o' dice systems than the half die per se at the time) but quite looking forward to checking the game out. Sadly this was pre the opening of Travelling Man York and I was very poor at the time, so the IG fiasco had played itself out (and Arcane fallen victim to WotC's puchase of TSR) before I had a chance to own a copy...
Cheers,
Nick MIddleton
I wonder if people who knew about it said the same about T4 before it came out... </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't. I was excited that Traveller was going back to its roots, updated with 20 years of RPG experience. We bought nearly the whole corpus twice over... and then some, when the rulebook's binding fell apart! The errata wasn't that bad, either... T4 was such a mix of improvement and awkwardness that I can't remember it with fondness, nor with revulsion, but more like with some kind of regret.
And of course, T4 never really died... T4.1 came out as a set of e-documents, then gradually the size of adjustments -- and publishing situation -- made it clear that the documents did not form a simple revision to T4 anymore. It was no longer T4.1, but the groundwork for T5.
WarriorKnight
SOC-12
I'd be dissapointed,but life would go on.I'd do like I did when CT ended & MT replaced it...play CT w/the updated character generation parts...as when TNE came out,CT w/MT CG parts...As when T4 came out,CT w/MT-T4 CG parts...AS w/G:T came out,CT w/MT-T4 CG parts & now T20 came out CT w/MT-T4 CG & bits of T20 thrown in. Yes I'd love to see T5 finished but the world won't end & I won't go looking to hurt myself or others because of it.IT'S JUST A GAME.
Granpafishy
SOC-12
[/QUOTE]
And of course, T4 never really died... T4.1 came out as a set of e-documents, then gradually the size of adjustments -- and publishing situation -- made it clear that the documents did not form a simple revision to T4 anymore. It was no longer T4.1, but the groundwork for T5.
And of course, T4 never really died... T4.1 came out as a set of e-documents, then gradually the size of adjustments -- and publishing situation -- made it clear that the documents did not form a simple revision to T4 anymore. It was no longer T4.1, but the groundwork for T5.
Where are these T4.1 files at? I have heard about them but only in vague reference.
http://www.traveller5.comOriginally posted by Granpafishy:
Where are these T4.1 files at? I have heard about them but only in vague reference.
William
Granpafishy
SOC-12
Fair enough.
do we really need a new version of Traveller? the 2 most recent editions, gurps &d20, should be good for anyone just being introduced to the Traveller universe. People seem to forget the original LLB was to be a role playing SYSTEM to run you own campaigns. Only later did the 3rd Imperium appear. In fact there was a series of books that that was set in the author's Traveller campaign. He even wrote an Amber zone setting for the Dragon magazine's Traveller edition.
Yes their are those who cling to their own version of the Traveller rules, imho the mechanics are no longer as important to gamers as the use to be. The setting is more important. If T5 is released it should be a background book to introduce a person the 3rd Imperium or what ever setting they want to publish. If I can ever get my group out of the d20 Forgotten Realms campaign, I want to run Traveller using the Alternity rules.
Yes their are those who cling to their own version of the Traveller rules, imho the mechanics are no longer as important to gamers as the use to be. The setting is more important. If T5 is released it should be a background book to introduce a person the 3rd Imperium or what ever setting they want to publish. If I can ever get my group out of the d20 Forgotten Realms campaign, I want to run Traveller using the Alternity rules.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
Shhhh! What are you, crazy?!
That kind of talk around here could get you killed!!! (though seriously, I agree completely)
Granpafishy
SOC-12
I think the reason there needs to be a new release of Traveller is because of people like me. I like the setting immeansly, but I absolutly refuse to buy D20 items (personal preference that would take to long to explain), and I have little intrest in Gurps at this time. But I would like to have a Traveller system that is being supported. I know that people like me are in the minority but, we do exist, and I think that it is we that MWM may be targeting.
I think that what is needed is two things.
First I would like to see a set of rules equal to the level of say MT's PM, RM. IE and RC that is setting neutral and that is as errataless as humanly possible. Just what that rule set is, right now, isn't terribly important to me. Every version of the game mechanics - and we're up to 7 (ct, mt, tne, t4, t5, D20, GURPS...) official ones and I can think of a half dozen other good ones out on the net. Chris Thrash's BESM version is excellent for example. I hav always prefered MT but find myself going through a TNE kick right now. There are some good things hiding there, though like every version of Traveller, it needs errata and/or house rules to completely work right. THAT is one of the biggest problems Traveller has always had. I shouldn't have to rejigger the hit points or figure out that the High Energy Weapons are hosed and need new numbers. That's just TNE; I won't mention MT, T4, G:T, or T20's errata problems. That's one thing that must change - one more buggy version and I'm afraid it's history. And it may well already be except for the grognards...
Marc just needs to pick a rule set and finish it. People being people that probably means T5 and that's fine if it's setting free and debuged.
Second is system free settings. I think QLI has already got him started this way - witness the fact that the 1248 book is intended to be systemless (though it is the main reason for my TNE jag, but I digress
Well, that's enough ranting for now.
William
First I would like to see a set of rules equal to the level of say MT's PM, RM. IE and RC that is setting neutral and that is as errataless as humanly possible. Just what that rule set is, right now, isn't terribly important to me. Every version of the game mechanics - and we're up to 7 (ct, mt, tne, t4, t5, D20, GURPS...) official ones and I can think of a half dozen other good ones out on the net. Chris Thrash's BESM version is excellent for example. I hav always prefered MT but find myself going through a TNE kick right now. There are some good things hiding there, though like every version of Traveller, it needs errata and/or house rules to completely work right. THAT is one of the biggest problems Traveller has always had. I shouldn't have to rejigger the hit points or figure out that the High Energy Weapons are hosed and need new numbers. That's just TNE; I won't mention MT, T4, G:T, or T20's errata problems. That's one thing that must change - one more buggy version and I'm afraid it's history. And it may well already be except for the grognards...
Marc just needs to pick a rule set and finish it. People being people that probably means T5 and that's fine if it's setting free and debuged.
Second is system free settings. I think QLI has already got him started this way - witness the fact that the 1248 book is intended to be systemless (though it is the main reason for my TNE jag, but I digress
Well, that's enough ranting for now.
William
I am of the view that T5 is not needed at the moment - CT, GT and T20 are all good systems that keep Traveller the premier sci fi game out at the moment.
Rule neutral settings - era books licenced and vetted by MWM are the way forward at the present time: i.e. GT Interstellar Wars, T20 era 1000, era 1248. Maybe someone can do a combo of survival margin and the rebellion sourcebook and put out a rebellion setting?
Rule neutral settings - era books licenced and vetted by MWM are the way forward at the present time: i.e. GT Interstellar Wars, T20 era 1000, era 1248. Maybe someone can do a combo of survival margin and the rebellion sourcebook and put out a rebellion setting?
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
Define 'supported'. CT has been reprinted and is still available after all.