What is really realistic?

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
That's true... but then we don't really know anything about how varied life is in the universe. It might be that DNA and RNA are the only possible basis for life, in which case extraterrestrial life might be very compatible with our own.

Even then, it's probably unlikely to be more closely related than mollusks.

Might it also be possible for alien diseases to provoke an possibly fatal immune system reaction by their mere presence in our bodies, and not by their actual symptoms?

Alien allergens could easily be a major problem.

And I wouldn't rule out mutation either. Alien virii and diseases may not initially infect us, but given time (assuming the biologies are remotely compatible in the first place) they might evolve into something that does. We'd be a new niche for them to live in after all...

Yeah, but terrestrial virii do that too. Having humanity spread among 10,000 worlds is a great way to generate new and different diseases, though the way the jump drive works will tend to inhibit transport of disease.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
That's true... but then we don't really know anything about how varied life is in the universe. It might be that DNA and RNA are the only possible basis for life, in which case extraterrestrial life might be very compatible with our own.

Even then, it's probably unlikely to be more closely related than mollusks.

Might it also be possible for alien diseases to provoke an possibly fatal immune system reaction by their mere presence in our bodies, and not by their actual symptoms?

Alien allergens could easily be a major problem.

And I wouldn't rule out mutation either. Alien virii and diseases may not initially infect us, but given time (assuming the biologies are remotely compatible in the first place) they might evolve into something that does. We'd be a new niche for them to live in after all...

Yeah, but terrestrial virii do that too. Having humanity spread among 10,000 worlds is a great way to generate new and different diseases, though the way the jump drive works will tend to inhibit transport of disease.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Even then, it's probably unlikely to be more closely related than mollusks.

Anthony,

True. Then there is 'red tide' which kills/sickens both mollusks and men.

Alien allergens could easily be a major problem.

Agreed. And I agree with your comments regarding the changes in terrestial virii that introduction to a 'virgin field' and thousands of years of time may afford.

IMTU the rule of thumb is: The more things there are in a biosphere you can eat, the more things there are in a biosphere that can eat you.

Just how many things there are will depend on a host factors not the least of which is the level of realism and plausibility you feel comfortable with in your game.

Realism and plausibility vary from person to person, setting to setting, and campaign to campaign. There is no one level for all.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Even then, it's probably unlikely to be more closely related than mollusks.

Anthony,

True. Then there is 'red tide' which kills/sickens both mollusks and men.

Alien allergens could easily be a major problem.

Agreed. And I agree with your comments regarding the changes in terrestial virii that introduction to a 'virgin field' and thousands of years of time may afford.

IMTU the rule of thumb is: The more things there are in a biosphere you can eat, the more things there are in a biosphere that can eat you.

Just how many things there are will depend on a host factors not the least of which is the level of realism and plausibility you feel comfortable with in your game.

Realism and plausibility vary from person to person, setting to setting, and campaign to campaign. There is no one level for all.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

True. Then there is 'red tide' which kills/sickens both mollusks and men.

Of course, red tides are basically toxins, not viruses. Alien botulism-analog might be a problem too, though it's not obvious that it will be more of a problem than terrestrial botulism.

[qb]IMTU the rule of thumb is: The more things there are in a biosphere you can eat, the more things there are in a biosphere that can eat you.

Generally a pretty good rule of thumb. Then again, alien lifeforms are likely to not be very edible, or at least not very nutritious (you can probably get calories out of it, but you'd want vitamin and protein supplements).

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

True. Then there is 'red tide' which kills/sickens both mollusks and men.

Of course, red tides are basically toxins, not viruses. Alien botulism-analog might be a problem too, though it's not obvious that it will be more of a problem than terrestrial botulism.

[qb]IMTU the rule of thumb is: The more things there are in a biosphere you can eat, the more things there are in a biosphere that can eat you.

Generally a pretty good rule of thumb. Then again, alien lifeforms are likely to not be very edible, or at least not very nutritious (you can probably get calories out of it, but you'd want vitamin and protein supplements).

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Of course, red tides are basically toxins, not viruses.

Anthony,

Toxins produced by a lifeform as equally 'distant' from both mollusk and man, yet lives within the same biosphere as mollusk and man.

Just because some fictional form of life is as 'distant' from man as a mollusk, doesn't mean there couldn't be fatal interactions.

Alien botulism-analog might be a problem too, though it's not obvious that it will be more of a problem than terrestrial botulism.

Not more of a problem, just a potential problem.

Then again, alien lifeforms are likely to not be very edible, or at least not very nutritious (you can probably get calories out of it, but you'd want vitamin and protein supplements).

Sort of sounds like life on Vland, doesn't it?

IIRC, Niven made an offhand comment in one of his Draco Tavern short stories about species trading food stuffs for the purpose of dieting; it tasted good, filled you up, and yet provided no nutritional benefit whatsoever.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Of course, red tides are basically toxins, not viruses.

Anthony,

Toxins produced by a lifeform as equally 'distant' from both mollusk and man, yet lives within the same biosphere as mollusk and man.

Just because some fictional form of life is as 'distant' from man as a mollusk, doesn't mean there couldn't be fatal interactions.

Alien botulism-analog might be a problem too, though it's not obvious that it will be more of a problem than terrestrial botulism.

Not more of a problem, just a potential problem.

Then again, alien lifeforms are likely to not be very edible, or at least not very nutritious (you can probably get calories out of it, but you'd want vitamin and protein supplements).

Sort of sounds like life on Vland, doesn't it?

IIRC, Niven made an offhand comment in one of his Draco Tavern short stories about species trading food stuffs for the purpose of dieting; it tasted good, filled you up, and yet provided no nutritional benefit whatsoever.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Mickazoid]

The definition of 'life form' is too narrow in this discussion. Although we haven't discovered anything of the kind, there is a possibility of 'non-organic' life... Don't forget about 'The Andromeda Strain'... a non-organic life form that was most-definitely dangerous to organic life

 

[Mickazoid]

The definition of 'life form' is too narrow in this discussion. Although we haven't discovered anything of the kind, there is a possibility of 'non-organic' life... Don't forget about 'The Andromeda Strain'... a non-organic life form that was most-definitely dangerous to organic life

 

[ravells]

Mal said:

It's almost like the simulationism and narrativism arguments from some RPG circles - I think it's quite possible to have a "fun" universe to play in that is still realistic, others think that realism limits or even actually precludes "fun" and that the narrativistic aspect should take precedence. I've certainly seen no evidence that realism actually makes a game less enjoyable or exciting though - it does shift the fun aspects around since "anything goes" doesn't work anymore, but there's still fun and excitement to be had.

But do you find that this leads into arguments between players and the GM as to what is or is not scientifically possible? I guess not if your prime inviolable law is 'The GM is always right'. I simply don't know enough about science to run a decent simulation of space travel etc.

In a recent GRiP adventure I was playing with Valerian which I was Refereeing, his character was talking to the ship's doctor about a head injury. The character went into details about anatomy about which I had no idea and I, playing the ship's doctor NPC (who is supposed to know all about these things) was flailing around a bit. After the adventure, Valarian told me that he was cutting and pasting bits out of some anatomy website he'd found. ....

Ravs

 

[ravells]

Mal said:

It's almost like the simulationism and narrativism arguments from some RPG circles - I think it's quite possible to have a "fun" universe to play in that is still realistic, others think that realism limits or even actually precludes "fun" and that the narrativistic aspect should take precedence. I've certainly seen no evidence that realism actually makes a game less enjoyable or exciting though - it does shift the fun aspects around since "anything goes" doesn't work anymore, but there's still fun and excitement to be had.

But do you find that this leads into arguments between players and the GM as to what is or is not scientifically possible? I guess not if your prime inviolable law is 'The GM is always right'. I simply don't know enough about science to run a decent simulation of space travel etc.

In a recent GRiP adventure I was playing with Valerian which I was Refereeing, his character was talking to the ship's doctor about a head injury. The character went into details about anatomy about which I had no idea and I, playing the ship's doctor NPC (who is supposed to know all about these things) was flailing around a bit. After the adventure, Valarian told me that he was cutting and pasting bits out of some anatomy website he'd found. ....

Ravs

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

Hey, Malenfant! Glad to see you are still around.

As with anything YMMV, but we must all decide how much fun we want without realism 'getting in the way' of our playtime.

OTU Ancients' intervention would explain why there are very few eco-catastrophes, besides MWM's fiat. One could say the same thing in YTU but would it be one of those things we players would never find out about? Conversely, what happens if humans get beyond the ancient influence zone. Mass plague?

I agree with Malenfant that one can write and read fairly realistic SF. Haldeman's Forever War, beyond the handwave for effective FTL travel, read pretty realistically. Michael p Kube-McDowell's Trigon Disunity trilogy was close to the same, with limited light speed communications asnd transport.

IMHO I add as much realism as necessary to make it interesting and enough handwaving and technobabvble to add entertainment. And after all, isn't entertainment what it's all about?

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

Hey, Malenfant! Glad to see you are still around.

As with anything YMMV, but we must all decide how much fun we want without realism 'getting in the way' of our playtime.

OTU Ancients' intervention would explain why there are very few eco-catastrophes, besides MWM's fiat. One could say the same thing in YTU but would it be one of those things we players would never find out about? Conversely, what happens if humans get beyond the ancient influence zone. Mass plague?

I agree with Malenfant that one can write and read fairly realistic SF. Haldeman's Forever War, beyond the handwave for effective FTL travel, read pretty realistically. Michael p Kube-McDowell's Trigon Disunity trilogy was close to the same, with limited light speed communications asnd transport.

IMHO I add as much realism as necessary to make it interesting and enough handwaving and technobabvble to add entertainment. And after all, isn't entertainment what it's all about?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Dominion Loyalty Officer:
IMHO I add as much realism as necessary to make it interesting and enough handwaving and technobabvble to add entertainment. And after all, isn't entertainment what it's all about? [/QB]

That's basically what it's all about in the end really, isn't it.

I think that from the player perspective, most of them just want to play their characters in a good story that they can enjoy. From a GM perspective, personally I'd want to run a good story in a physically realistic setting - it doesn't really matter to me whether the players appreciate the realism, but it makes a lot of difference to me because it gives me a heck of a lot less weirdness to explain . The handwavium comes in largely with the technology and assumptions about the setting itself, but I'd rather keep the universe itself realistic.

That said, "setting realism", "technological realism" and "rules realism" are IMO three different things that can have three different levels. If you put all three on a "low" level and you have wacky cinematic science fantasy like Dune or Metabarons. Put all three on "high" and you get something like 2001 or Alien - gritty and deadly. Personally I prefer to have the setting on High, tech on Medium, and rules on Low - that lets me have a realistic universe with enough tech handwaves to make the sf staples viable, and simple enough rules to let the story dominate and avoid getting bogged down in gameplay details.

I don't really know where the OTU fits there... Low setting realism, Medium tech realism, Medium or High rules realism maybe?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Dominion Loyalty Officer:
IMHO I add as much realism as necessary to make it interesting and enough handwaving and technobabvble to add entertainment. And after all, isn't entertainment what it's all about? [/QB]

That's basically what it's all about in the end really, isn't it.

I think that from the player perspective, most of them just want to play their characters in a good story that they can enjoy. From a GM perspective, personally I'd want to run a good story in a physically realistic setting - it doesn't really matter to me whether the players appreciate the realism, but it makes a lot of difference to me because it gives me a heck of a lot less weirdness to explain . The handwavium comes in largely with the technology and assumptions about the setting itself, but I'd rather keep the universe itself realistic.

That said, "setting realism", "technological realism" and "rules realism" are IMO three different things that can have three different levels. If you put all three on a "low" level and you have wacky cinematic science fantasy like Dune or Metabarons. Put all three on "high" and you get something like 2001 or Alien - gritty and deadly. Personally I prefer to have the setting on High, tech on Medium, and rules on Low - that lets me have a realistic universe with enough tech handwaves to make the sf staples viable, and simple enough rules to let the story dominate and avoid getting bogged down in gameplay details.

I don't really know where the OTU fits there... Low setting realism, Medium tech realism, Medium or High rules realism maybe?

 

[RandyT0001]

Meanwhile on a large rocky Earthlike world orbiting a distant O V star.

"Captain's log. After two years in space, searching, losing the merc platoon to get into the building, losing the rest of the crew, save the science officer and myself, to several hideous creatures in this labyrinth we have finally made to the door of the chamber that holds the ultimate Ancient artifact."

"Captain Archer, I think I've found out how to open this door."

"Do it, T'pau."

"Captian, I have scanned the room and what we seek is on this pedestal in the middle of the room."

"Does it match the description?"

"Yes, it is an jointed object 14cm long, 4cm wide and 8mm deep atop a 6cm long post, 3cm in diameter on a pyramid 4cm to each side of it's base."

"Does it have an activation button?"

"Yes."

"Press it."

<pregnant pause>

"Did you activate it?"

"Yes, Captain."

"Well, it's not....ah, now I see it's moving slightly."

"Yes, Captain, it's frequency is increasing."

"I'll say, it's flopping around like a fish out of water now."

"Captain, I can say we have found the greatest Ancient artifact."

"Yes, It is ..... The Handwavium."


Seriously, I think that Earthlike worlds are going to be rare. There are alot of variables that have to be just right for an Earthlike world to develop. Our Moon being, IMO, one of the biggest. I think it has played a crucial part in making the planet "Earthlike". I think there will be a considerable number of planets with life on them but the life will be very primitive, like what Earth had 3 billion years ago. Of course a gaming universe where 999 out of 1000 planets have to have domes on them to live in with realitively speaking low populations would be dull to most players.

"Ah, what's the name of this world?"

"Hell, let's just call it 'Dome 337'."

"Now, now, no snide remarks. Ya'll wanted to play in a more realistic universe."

 

[RandyT0001]

Meanwhile on a large rocky Earthlike world orbiting a distant O V star.

"Captain's log. After two years in space, searching, losing the merc platoon to get into the building, losing the rest of the crew, save the science officer and myself, to several hideous creatures in this labyrinth we have finally made to the door of the chamber that holds the ultimate Ancient artifact."

"Captain Archer, I think I've found out how to open this door."

"Do it, T'pau."

"Captian, I have scanned the room and what we seek is on this pedestal in the middle of the room."

"Does it match the description?"

"Yes, it is an jointed object 14cm long, 4cm wide and 8mm deep atop a 6cm long post, 3cm in diameter on a pyramid 4cm to each side of it's base."

"Does it have an activation button?"

"Yes."

"Press it."

<pregnant pause>

"Did you activate it?"

"Yes, Captain."

"Well, it's not....ah, now I see it's moving slightly."

"Yes, Captain, it's frequency is increasing."

"I'll say, it's flopping around like a fish out of water now."

"Captain, I can say we have found the greatest Ancient artifact."

"Yes, It is ..... The Handwavium."


Seriously, I think that Earthlike worlds are going to be rare. There are alot of variables that have to be just right for an Earthlike world to develop. Our Moon being, IMO, one of the biggest. I think it has played a crucial part in making the planet "Earthlike". I think there will be a considerable number of planets with life on them but the life will be very primitive, like what Earth had 3 billion years ago. Of course a gaming universe where 999 out of 1000 planets have to have domes on them to live in with realitively speaking low populations would be dull to most players.

"Ah, what's the name of this world?"

"Hell, let's just call it 'Dome 337'."

"Now, now, no snide remarks. Ya'll wanted to play in a more realistic universe."

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
Of course a gaming universe where 999 out of 1000 planets have to have domes on them to live in with realitively speaking low populations would be dull to most players.

There are many ways to circumvent this, such as terraformation (a comfortable semi-handwavium in some cases, realistic in others), tent-cities, cave-cities, hollowed-out planetoids, Oniell-style colonies and so on.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
Of course a gaming universe where 999 out of 1000 planets have to have domes on them to live in with realitively speaking low populations would be dull to most players.

There are many ways to circumvent this, such as terraformation (a comfortable semi-handwavium in some cases, realistic in others), tent-cities, cave-cities, hollowed-out planetoids, Oniell-style colonies and so on.