What is Traveller?

[atpollard]

Your statement above has an or as if one or the other statements should be true but I believe the answer is No to both parts.

I think he was simply restating the same argument in two different ways as a simple clarification (joined by an "or").

In any event, I agree with both of you (If I have understood correctly) that "No FTL Communication" is a critical and integral part of the Traveller Universe.

I also agree with both of you (If I have understood correctly) that adding FTL Communications to the Traveller Rules (defined for this post as the MgT Core Book or CT LBB1-3) would create a very different Universe, but would require "very little" (bordering on "almost none") change to the actual game mechanics and text presented in the Traveller Rules.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I just don't see it in the rules. The OTU yes, the rules no.

For simplicity in making an example, the following is regarding Mongoose Traveller only and please pretend all previous material does not exist.

At one time there were no other supplemental materials/rules. All a GM owned and used was the Traveller Core Rulebook. Are these the actual full set of Traveller rules?

Book 1: Mercenary comes out. New skills, careers, and other things are introduced. Are these now part of the full set of Traveller Rules? What if a group does not use Mercenary due to cost or choice? Are they suddenly no longer playing Traveller?

Book 2: High Guard, Book 3: Scouts, Book 4: Psion, Book 5: Agent. Different people are now playing with different books/rules. What are "the rules"? When I start an online MGT game I specifically state which books I do and don't use so that everyone will be on the same page.

Spica publishing, SITREP 1: Callia, Jon Brazer Enterprises: Creatures of Distant Worlds and Mech Tech 'n' bot [what do I get for helping advertise?], Mongoose's Signs and Portents, and other material helps muddy things. I won't even mention [**blank**]. You will have to fill in the blank because, as I said, I ain't gonna mention it! :devil:

The Spinward Marches is purchased and used. Just another book of rules for use with Traveller. The "OTU" is rules. If you use it, are you no longer playing Traveller? If you don't use this publication are you not playing Traveller?

All of the additional books are sets of rules which some people use and others don't. I don't know what people mean by "the rules" unless they indicate all the publications they use, but I am fairly certain some people believe the "OTU" is part of "the rules".

 

[tbeard1999]

The original claim was that no-FTJ communications are fundamental to Traveller. "Fundamental" would indicate to me that any change in that assumption would create drastic changes in the rules (perhaps even making it "totally different"). I just don't see it in the rules. The OTU yes, the rules no.

You appear to be intentionally ignoring the list of rules and mechanics that would look different if FTL communications were assumed.

Why?

 

[CosmicGamer]

You appear to be intentionally ignoring the list of rules and mechanics that would look different if FTL communications were assumed.

Why?

I'm curious. This question is for everyone, not just tbeard.

For just the Mongoose Core Rulebook, what list of rules and mechanics do you think would not fit if FTL communications were assumed?

 

[rust]

For just the Mongoose Core Rulebook, what list of rules and mechanics do you think would not fit if FTL communications were assumed?

I think the rules for speculative trade would have to be modified, because
a trader could be able to use FTL communication to find a buyer for his tra-
de goods even before he himself buys those goods.

 

[Jason]

I think the rules for speculative trade would have to be modified, because
a trader could be able to use FTL communication to find a buyer for his tra-
de goods even before he himself buys those goods.

I don't see anything in the rules that indicates the lack of FTL communications is responsible for the variations in price. The 3d6 roll to determine price in MgT could be for any number of market factors. The rules even say you can re-roll one of the dice after a week waiting in the same place, when communication wouldn't be a factor.

In fact, if I purchase some goods on one continent of a TL9+ balkanized world and ship them to another continent via boat, wouldn't I use the very same system to determine the price at both ends, even though the two continents have relatively instantaneous communication?

 

[rust]

I don't see anything in the rules that indicates the lack of FTL communications is responsible for the variations in price.

No, but this is not my point.

Just imagine Trader A on Planet 1 who has the opportunity to buy Cargo I
for 10,000 Credits, but does not know whether he will be able to sell it on
Planet 2 with a profit.

Without FTL communication, all he has to base his decision on is his know-
ledge of the market on Planet 2, but the conditions there could have chan-
ged in the meantime.

With FTL communication, he can call Broker 1 on Planet 2 and ask him for a
specific price offer for a Cargo I delivered in X weeks, and can then base
his decision to buy or buy not that Cargo I on the answer.

The situation would be quite different, I think, and since rules have the pur-
pose to mirror the reality of the setting, this change in the setting's reality
should lead to a modification of the rules (e.g. the price of an FTL call, the
reliability of orders given by FTL, etc.).

 

[Jason]

No, but this is not my point.

You are arguing "if FTL communication were a fundamental factor, I would make x and y changes to the rules." That's not quite the same thing as arguing "STJ communication is directly reflected in the rules."

 

[rust]

You are arguing "if FTL communication were a fundamental factor, I would make x and y changes to the rules." That's not quite the same thing as arguing "STJ communication is directly reflected in the rules."

Of course not.

I just answered CosmicGamer's question:
For just the Mongoose Core Rulebook, what list of rules and mechanics do
you think would not fit if FTL communications were assumed?
- and in my view the speculative trade rules of Mongoose Traveller would not
fit under those conditions.

As for the other debate, whether FTL communication is directly reflected in
the rules or not, I am fully prepared to forego it.

 

[atpollard]

You appear to be intentionally ignoring the list of rules and mechanics that would look different if FTL communications were assumed.
Why?

If you mean THIS list of rules and mechanics:

The rationale for disparate tech levels (as defined by the tech level determination mechanics) falls apart if we assume FTL communication.

The trade system makes no sense if we assume FTL communication.

The subsidized mail routes make no sense if we assume FTL communication.

The tech level chart, which mentions telegraphy, radio, television and other forms of communication technology is defective if omits the development of an incredibly important technology like FTL communication. (Note that the tech level chart *does* mention FTL travel).

The "communications route" tables in LBB1 make no sense if we assume FTL communication.

In addition, we have to ignore the first paragraph of LBB1 and assume that it is incorrect if we assume FTL communication.

Sorry, but the evidence seems conclusive to me that a lack of FTL communications was an integral part of Classic Traveller's assumptions.

But if you have *any* mention of FTL communications in Classic Traveller, or *any* implication thereof, please produce it. I am aware of none. Nil. Zilch. Nada. Bupkus.

Then I’d like to take a shot at addressing it on his behalf.

“The rationale for disparate tech levels (as defined by the tech level determination mechanics) falls apart if we assume FTL communication.”
Per our earlier discussion, this is predicated on the first edition version of the rules and the lack of digital information. By the data-crystals of the 1980’s printings (and certainly the MgT: Core Book) instantaneous communication is not needed since massive amounts of data can be transferred at low costs. In either case, this is really more of a meta-game issue requiring some ‘chrome’ to explain why the situation is true. The actual game mechanics for generating the TL of a world have no ‘speed of communication’ component that would require a massive rewrite if FTL Communication were allowed. As stated before, FTL communication would drastically alter the Official Traveller Universe, but the resulting Alternate Traveller Universe would not require major revisions to the MgT Core Book or the CT LBB 1-3 rules or text.

“The trade system makes no sense if we assume FTL communication.”
While the meta-game conclusions and assumptions of the Trade System would change, the actual mechanics and text are still completely functional at the “Free Trader looking for cargo” scale of player interaction. As I stated in an earlier post, What difference does it make to the crew of the Free Trader whether the 1000 credit per ton cargo that they are shipping was ordered 2 hours ago or 2 weeks ago? What difference does knowing the current price of electronics 2 parsecs away matter since you will not be able to sell your speculative cargo for at least another week (your travel time to the world via Jump) and the market price will have changed by then. The Trader skill in some versions of the O.T.U. was able to predict the price at the destination before jumping, but even then the rules required the Players to roll a check to see if conditions had changed. The actual game mechanics for generating cargo have no ‘speed of communication’ component that would require a massive rewrite if FTL Communication were allowed. FTL communication would drastically alter the Official Traveller Universe, but the resulting Alternate Traveller Universe would not require major revisions to the MgT Core Book or the CT LBB 1-3 rules or text.

“The subsidized mail routes make no sense if we assume FTL communication.”
E-mail has not eliminated all ‘snail mail’ or ‘FedEx Packages’. Adding FTL communications would change the description of WHAT is carried as “Subsidized Mail” from data to physical letters and small packages, but the actual impact on the subsidized mail routes would be minimal. The actual game mechanics for subsidized mail have no ‘speed of communication’ component that would require a massive rewrite if FTL Communication were allowed. FTL communication would drastically alter the Official Traveller Universe, but the resulting Alternate Traveller Universe would not require major revisions to the MgT Core Book or the CT LBB 1-3 rules or text.

“The tech level chart, which mentions telegraphy, radio, television and other forms of communication technology is defective if omits the development of an incredibly important technology like FTL communication. (Note that the tech level chart *does* mention FTL travel).”
This clearly indicates that FTL communication is NOT included as an integral part of the O.T.U. or the MgT Core Book or the CT LBBs 1-3. No argument on that point.
However, many things both included in the O.T.U. and not included in the O.T.U. are not listed in the Tech Chart. IF we added FTL Communications to the chart, it would drastically alter the Official Traveller Universe, but the resulting Alternate Traveller Universe would not require major revisions to the MgT Core Book or the CT LBB 1-3 rules or text.

“The "communications route" tables in LBB1 make no sense if we assume FTL communication.”
These were so vital to the O.T.U. and the core rules that the entire chart was dropped from later printings of CT LBB 1, future versions of Traveller and the MgT Core Rule Book. Like the “Subsidized Mail” mentioned above, the Express Boat service would need to change from delivering data to physical letters and small packages. The actual game mechanics for communication routes have no ‘speed of communication’ component that would require a massive rewrite if FTL Communication were allowed. As stated before, FTL communication would drastically alter the Official Traveller Universe, but the resulting Alternate Traveller Universe would not require major revisions to the MgT Core Book or the CT LBB 1-3 rules or text.

“In addition, we have to ignore the first paragraph of LBB1 and assume that it is incorrect if we assume FTL communication.”
This is a required change, but a minor one. FTL communication would drastically alter the Official Traveller Universe, but the resulting Alternate Traveller Universe would not require MAJOR revisions to the MgT Core Book or the CT LBB 1-3 rules or text.

“Sorry, but the evidence seems conclusive to me that a lack of FTL communications was an integral part of Classic Traveller's assumptions.”
I agree. Marc Miller clearly set out to create a game system (Traveller) and a game universe (the Imperium) founded on an age of sail communication limited to speed of travel model. However, in spite of his intentions, the resulting game mechanics and rule books (CT LBB 1-3 only) are actually fairly free of dramatic consequences for including FTL Communication in the rules. The Imperium Setting books would be more profoundly impacted by such a change, but the basic rules books (CT LBB 1-3) would not.
I would like to point out that this Topic is in the Mongoose Traveller Forum and Mongoose, unlike Marc Miller, has made it clear that they view/define Traveller as a game mechanic suitable for multiple Universes. The Mongoose Traveller Babylon 5 Universe does include FTL Communication and managed to add it without publishing a rewritten MgT Core Rules Book. Clearly the lack of FTL communications may not be quite as “integral” to the Mongoose Version of the Traveller Rules (MgT Core Rule Book).

“But if you have *any* mention of FTL communications in Classic Traveller, or *any* implication thereof, please produce it. I am aware of none. Nil. Zilch. Nada. Bupkus.”
Again I agree that CT makes no explicit mention of FTL Communication because a lack of FTL communications was an integral part of Classic Traveller's assumptions.

A statement was made WAY BACK in this topic that the lack of FTL communications was “fundamental” to the Traveller Rules and Jason questioned whether it was actually that fundamental to the rules. My initial reaction was “Of Course it is!”, but then I tried to find specific references to communication or rules that would be dramatically impacted by FTL Communication. I found pretty close to the same ones that you did, but saw that the impacts were really to the Setting rather than the actual game mechanics. I was actually very surprised by how little text from the core rules (MgT Core Book or CT LBB 1-3) would actually require changing.

Now, I have reluctantly concluded that non FTL communication is ‘Fundamental’ to the O.T.U. Setting but barely impacts the actual rules (MgT or CT).

 

[CosmicGamer]

AVAILABILITY
Even if FTL communication is possible, it's availability still needs to be determined.

Examples:
1) At one time, access to the internet was very limited.
2) Currently the ability to communicate with astronauts and even mars rovers is possible, but very limited.

Maybe it is not available to the public.

SPEED
Communication could be FTL yet still slower than xboat messages. A week per parsec, a day, an hour, instantaneous, how long does FTL communication take? Even if it only takes an hour for each message to arrive, it could take days to work out a trade deal.

DISTANCE
How far can FTL communications travel. One parsec, six, a whole sub sector, more?

Until these are decided, how can the impact of FTL communication be determined?

 

[rust]

Then I’d like to take a shot at addressing it on his behalf. ...

Thank you for a very interesting post.

 

[aramis]

Jason:

the rules were written with no FTJ comms as a presupposition. They don't need to explicitly state that they only work when no FTJ comm is possible, only to exhibit features consistent with no FTJ.

No edition has stated that speculation is normative intra-system. All state it is present in inter-system trade.

But in CT, the lack of FTL comm is explicitly part of the definition. It's also explicit in the TNE Fire, Fusion and Steel. It's explicit in many places.

 

[rust]

Can you be more specific, because ...

The points on your list are exactly the modifications I would like to see in
the rules for an interstellar economy with FTL communications: Availability,
Speed, Distance, Cost and all this.
Once these modifications were added to the current rules, and integrated
into the entire rule system wherever necessary, the rules most probably
would work fine.
As atpollard just mentioned, they do so for Babylon 5, and I see no reason
why they should not do so for a modified Third Imperium setting, too.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Thank you for a very interesting post.

Yes atpollard, very nice post.

 

[Jason]

If you mean THIS list of rules and mechanics:
A statement was made WAY BACK in this topic that the lack of FTL communications was “fundamental” to the Traveller Rules and Jason questioned whether it was actually that fundamental to the rules. My initial reaction was “Of Course it is!”, but then I tried to find specific references to communication or rules that would be dramatically impacted by FTL Communication. I found pretty close to the same ones that you did, but saw that the impacts were really to the Setting rather than the actual game mechanics. I was actually very surprised by how little text from the core rules (MgT Core Book or CT LBB 1-3) would actually require changing.

Now, I have reluctantly concluded that non FTL communication is ‘Fundamental’ to the O.T.U. Setting but barely impacts the actual rules (MgT or CT).

Ah, finally someone who sees what I'm talking about without assuming that I'm trying to change canon or attack their kids or something. Welcome to the fold, brother.

 

[atpollard]

With FTL communication, he can call Broker 1 on Planet 2 and ask him for a specific price offer for a Cargo I delivered in X weeks, and can then base his decision to buy or buy not that Cargo I on the answer.

The situation would be quite different, I think, and since rules have the pur-
pose to mirror the reality of the setting, this change in the setting's reality
should lead to a modification of the rules (e.g. the price of an FTL call, the
reliability of orders given by FTL, etc.).

This model would be more likely between brokers on each world and simply explain all of the 1000 credit per ton cargo waiting to be shipped.

The PCs with a Free Trader would want to buy at the local market price and hope that the future local market price at the destination will be higher than your current purchase price.

After all, the Brokers have a reputation for dependability while the Players are selling goods from the trunk of their car.

Thus the players will still use the same game rules, only the 'behind the scene' meta-plots have changed.

 

[rust]

Thus the players will still use the same game rules, only the 'behind the scene' meta-plots have changed.

Yes and no, because sooner or later some of the player characters may well
decide to become brokers themselves, and then rules for the use of FTL com-
munication would become a necessity.

 

[travlar]

This model would be more likely between brokers on each world and simply explain all of the 1000 credit per ton cargo waiting to be shipped.

The PCs with a Free Trader would want to buy at the local market price and hope that the future local market price at the destination will be higher than your current purchase price.

After all, the Brokers have a reputation for dependability while the Players are selling goods from the trunk of their car.

Thus the players will still use the same game rules, only the 'behind the scene' meta-plots have changed.

No, the players could call up someone they know there and ask him about current market conditions, and how they're likely to change in a week, giving them more of an idea of what would sell well. It would make a diffrence.

 

[travlar]

Like I said earlier, it's a given that the OTU would not be the same with FTJ communication. But are the rules (of whatever version of Traveller) really written such that if there were FTJ communication they would be totally different, or is "no FTJ communication" an aspect of the OTU and not really the Traveller rules per se?

You're quite right that Traveller isn't just the rules, but I think no-FTJ communication is not really written into the rules such that including it would drastically change the rules.

It wouldn't only change the OTU. It would change any Traveller universe, to the extent that it would be quite reasonable to say it isn't Traveller anymore. It would probably make a larger diffrence than a diffrent form of FTL travel. It is part of the Traveller rules, because it is a rule. From back before there was an OTU. Of course, it can be house-ruled, but that would be an extremely large change.