What is Traveller?

[CosmicGamer]

And if someone bought a basset hound and insisted it was a fox, would the fact that he owned the critter prove that he was right?

Not sure what all this dog and fox stuff is about but here's another one.

And if someone is watching a friends pet and insists it is a fox even though his friend says it is a basset hound?

 

[CosmicGamer]

Then perhaps you can tell us *why* this argument that you're flogging with such enthusiasm matters...

For some reason, you're stretching awfully hard to press an argument that most of us do not find convincing (and that requires a very dubious downgrading of plain statements in the first paragraph of the Traveller rules).

As I pointed out in a previous post and you sorta state yourself

(or more accurately, the carefully selected subset of material that you contend constitutes the "rules").

exactly what the Traveller rules are is open to a lot of personal interpretation.

I am not aware of it being in any paragraph of the Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook. YRMV

(your rules may vary)

To me, when you use a generalized term such as character generation, combat, ship construction or 'the rules' and you are within the forum for a specific version, you are referring to that version unless you state otherwise. I believe you were referring to one of the CT LBBs as 'the Traveler rules' but this is the Mongoose forum not the CT forum so I hope I'm not out of line for asking you to be a little clearer in your posts so that people don't get confused or think you are putting MGT down, which I don't think you meant to?

NOTE: The bold and underlined effect in the quoted text was done by me and not tbeard1999

 

[aramis]

pages 160-162 of MGT Core:

Mail
Mail is a special form of freight, consisting of large data storage drums which contain a vast amount of information that must be transported from one world to another, but is not vital enough to be entrusted to the X-Boat service or a private courier. To determine if there is mail available, determine the applicable Mail DMs, then roll on the available mail table.​

The lack of FTL communication is important especially when it says data storage drums, not parcel and letter bins.

Also, fundamentally, the primary limitation on governance is time to react; historically, no govenrment survived as a single entity past 6 months round trip...

as communication speeds increased, central-authority has been increased across the board... FTJ comm could impact the generation of Governments.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

The 1st edition AD&D rules listed a specific number of classes and races which could be played with each class also having additional restrictions (such as Paladin Alignments). Thus any race/class not explicitly detailed in the rules could not be used under the 'official rules'. But as always, you are free to create your own house rules for your game.

Therefore, "Big Blue Sentient Cheeses whose asses are lit on fire" are not permitted in Tournament Play, but you are free to play "Big Blue Sentient Cheeses whose asses are lit on fire" in your home game.

We're not talking about house rules here.

We're talking about a new edition of a game that includes Big Blue Sentient Cheeses Whose Asses Are Lit On Fire, and which claims it may continue to call itself Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, on grounds that Big Blue Cheeses Whose Asses Are Lit On Fire weren't expressly excluded in the first edition rules.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

I didn't think you were serious.

I would assume that Big Blue Sentient Cheeses would be a racial choice, not a class.

Sure, let's assume they're a race.

So... where in the rules are they expressly excluded?

 

[rust]

The lack of FTL communication is important especially when it says data storage drums, not parcel and letter bins.

Not necessarily, I could well imagine that governments, megacorporations
and others would prefer to send important and not time sensitive data this
way instead of broadcasting them for half the universe to receive.
Besides, the cost of FTL communication could be so high that it is used for
urgent "telegrams" only, not for data that are not especially urgent.

 

[CosmicGamer]

pages 160-162 of MGT Core:

Mail
Mail is a special form of freight, consisting of large data storage drums which contain a vast amount of information that must be transported from one world to another, but is not vital enough to be entrusted to the X-Boat service or a private courier. To determine if there is mail available, determine the applicable Mail DMs, then roll on the available mail table.​

The lack of FTL communication is important especially when it says data storage drums, not parcel and letter bins.

Also, fundamentally, the primary limitation on governance is time to react; historically, no govenrment survived as a single entity past 6 months round trip...

as communication speeds increased, central-authority has been increased across the board... FTJ comm could impact the generation of Governments.

It is 'large' data storage drum's' and 'vast' amounts of information which
1) maybe FTJ communications is not available to the general public
2) maybe it is beyond the capacity of FTJ communications. My satellite internet provider limits my monthly data transmissions.
3) maybe the charge for FTJ communication is higher than for shipping 'Mail' (imagine the long distance charges on your phone bill!)

The speed and availability of the possible FTJ communication has yet to be determined. One day per parsec is FTJ but still possibly slow enough to not alter things too much.

 

[rust]

We're talking about a new edition of a game that includes Big Blue Sentient Cheeses Whose Asses Are Lit On Fire, and which claims it may continue to call itself Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, on grounds that Big Blue Cheeses Whose Asses Are Lit On Fire weren't expressly excluded in the first edition rules.

Looking at all the creatures from the Planescape supplements of AD&D's Mon-
ster Manual, I am not sure whether your cheeses are among them, but they
could very well fit in.
None of the bizarre Planescape creatures were expressly excluded in the ori-
ginal Monster Manual, and TSR claimed that AD&D was still AD&D after those
creatures were introduced, so I do not quite get your point.
Besides, TSR introduced several new player races with the Monster Handbook,
none of them being available in the core rules, but afterwards the game still
was AD&D.

Edit.: The English title was "The Complete Book of Humanoids", and it turned
about 20 previous "monster" races into player character races.

 

[aramis]

It's pretty obvious that FTL isn't being compared. Adding FTL would make significant changes to the setting, and in all editions EXCEPT MGT, it's explicit that there is ONE official setting, and a number of alternate ones that can be developed, but are not official.

 

[Jacqual]

Well I am coming in a bit late, and am not sure about the discussion of blue cheese in AD&D came from and not even going to go there. I happen to like the differences that are in MGT, as it gives me a slight sense of discovery when playing. This gives it a nice fresh approach to the game. It does at times give way to some confusion to the players that have played before. But I think the intent was to attract new players to the game, I feel that in todays atmosphere that a game with a universe like the origional traveller game would not attract as many new players. Yes I do enjoy the CT derived universe as the way things are meant to be, when I am playing CT. MGT will never fully replace CT to me, as I first played using those rules they have a place in my heart and will always be there. So I am looking at both game universes as being Traveller and understanding a need for the changes and I do like them. As I said making the game fresh and new to me. I hope that by posting this I am not opening a can of worms, as I have no intention of starting any form of flame war. These are just my opinions and as a whole only really count to me everyone else is capable of forming there own and i hope are always allowed to do so.

Thank you for reading and I hope all goes well for all.

 

[Jason]

Sure, let's assume they're a race.

So... where in the rules are they expressly excluded?

Nowhere that I can see. There just aren't options written for them and there are no rules that specifically incorporate them. Quite like how there are very few rules about the speed of communication or incorporating the limitations of that speed in Traveller.

 

[travlar]

I quite agree with you. I think I already mentioned that.
My point was simply that the "no FTJ communications" restriction is not as fundamental to the Traveller rules as everyone seems to assume, though it is fundamental to the OTU.

Whether it's fundamental to the rules or not, (and I still think it is) it is fundamental to more than the OTU. The thread is about what is Traveller, and the existence or lack of FTJ communications makes such a difference that I don't see how anyone could say that it isn't fundamental to Traveller. It is, IMO, a very important part of Traveller, given that one of the original assumptions of Traveller, from back before there was an OTU, is that there isn't any.

 

[captainjack]

Well, the absence of any FTL coms in the ship combat rules and all that FTL would allow in combat * seem evidence of a pretty fundamental set of rules that depend on STL communication, and that STL is the default. So, unless one completely wants to ignore the concept of elimination by omission, that's pretty final; if one does refuse to accept it, then .....HERE COME THE BIG BLUE CHEESES WITH THEIR ASSES LIT AFIRE (tm) !

Your call, but you can't have it both ways.

* realtime comunication across a system; effective remote drones at great distances, both as weapons and extended sensor nets; networking ships for realitime targeting. And those are the minimum one gets when only communication (ie FTL phonecalls) is faster than light. If one can use the effect as a sensor.......

 

[rancke]

I suppose you are free to believe whatever you want, no matter how outlandish or baseless.

You know, if that's the level of argumentation that you're comfortable with, I'll accomodate you, and I've got a real humdinger, one that'll blow all your arguments away:

You are wrong.

Now, I'm going away for a week, so I'm afraid you'll have to conduct the rest of the argument by yourself, but here's my side of it:

<Insert your retort>

Am too!

<Insert your retort>

Am too!

<Insert your retort>

Feel free to imagine that after the third iteration, I'll fail to respond and that you've won the argument by default. Bravo! Well done! Give yourself a pat on the back. If you don't, who will?


Hans

 

[Jason]

You know, if that's the level of argumentation that you're comfortable with, I'll accomodate you, and I've got a real humdinger, one that'll blow all your arguments away:

You do realize that my comment was addressed to Whipsnide's strange idea that I am somehow disengenuously attempting to "bolster Mongoose's claims that Traveller was/is a generic sci-fi rules set and then use that excuse to "prove" that B5 or Slammers are Traveller settings rather than just being settings powered by Traveller," and not anything you said, Rancke?

I mean, how else am I supposed to respond to such a post?

 

[rust]

Well, the absence of any FTL coms in the ship combat rules ...

Ah, Captain, I politely disagree.

To use a real world example, VLF/ELF radio frequencies are used to send mes-
sages to submerged submarines, but the necessary transceivers are so big
that a submarine can only have a receiver on board, never send messages
itself.

So, depending on the size, power requirement, etc., of FTL communicators,
their absence in the combat rules does not prove whether they exist or not,
it only shows that the technology is not useful for space combat.

 

[aramis]

You do realize that my comment was addressed to Whipsnide's strange idea that I am somehow disengenuously attempting to "bolster Mongoose's claims that Traveller was/is a generic sci-fi rules set and then use that excuse to "prove" that B5 or Slammers are Traveller settings rather than just being settings powered by Traveller," and not anything you said, Rancke?

I mean, how else am I supposed to respond to such a post?

stop trying to bolster mongoose's position...

You've not established even the simplest parts of your argument to the satisfaction of, well, pretty much anyone else posting in thread.

Hans' post is out of line. Mostly for tone. However... the sentiment is not.

Very VERY few consider the text and the explicit mechanics separate. Bill deleted a very good, but obviously triggered by frustration, post on that very topic. The OTU isn't the only TU, but the distinctive feel is predicated upon the lack of FTL, and especially, FTJ, communications. Some of us do weight them slightly differently... but both count as rules as much as anything in an RPG is rules.

Mongoose has chosen to ignore Marc's black-letter definitions in CT... much to fan irritation. But that's between them and Marc, in the end...
... and Requiring Traveller is not the same as Being Traveller, so the B5U books are not Traveller in the sense that most fans use, but B5. After all, OE D&D required both Chainmail minis rules and AH's Survival to play as written... not that people didn't play without them...

 

[rust]

stop trying to bolster mongoose's position...

I doubt that Mongoose has any official (= published) position on FTL commu-
nication.

For example, while FTL communication obviously is a part of the Babylon 5
setting, I was unable to find any rules concerning FTL communication in the
Babylon 5 supplement: The equipment chapter's communicator with the best
range has a range of 2,000 miles, there are no FTL communicators mentioned
on board of the starships, and so on.

This is no problem for me, since I never use FTL communication in any of my
settings, I prefer my remote and isolated frontier colonies to remain remote
and isolated, and a message drone to call for help or send some brave last
words is all I intend to provide them with.

However, I find it a bit surprising that one of the elements that really distin-
guishes Babylon 5 from the Third Imperium has not become a part of the ru-
les.

 

[Jason]

stop trying to bolster mongoose's position...
Very VERY few consider the text and the explicit mechanics separate. Bill deleted a very good, but obviously triggered by frustration, post on that very topic.

I haven't argued that they are seperate, but distinct from each other.

The OTU isn't the only TU, but the distinctive feel is predicated upon the lack of FTL, and especially, FTJ, communications.

I absolutely agree. The distinctive feel of the OTU requires no FTJ communications.

Mongoose has chosen to ignore Marc's black-letter definitions in CT... much to fan irritation. But that's between them and Marc, in the end...
... and Requiring Traveller is not the same as Being Traveller, so the B5U books are not Traveller in the sense that most fans use, but B5. After all, OE D&D required both Chainmail minis rules and AH's Survival to play as written... not that people didn't play without them...

I haven't made any argument about whether B5 or Hammer's Slammers are Traveller or not. In fact I think I haven't mentioned either one at all. That's one of the reasons Whipsnide's idea caught me by surprise.

 

[rancke]

You do realize that my comment was addressed to Whipsnide's strange idea that I am somehow disengenuously attempting to "bolster Mongoose's claims that Traveller was/is a generic sci-fi rules set and then use that excuse to "prove" that B5 or Slammers are Traveller settings rather than just being settings powered by Traveller," and not anything you said, Rancke?

I hate having to eat my own words; they leave such a nasty aftertaste.

Yes, I did realize you were responding to something Bill had said, but I had gotten the impression you were dismissing the arguments he'd presented several times in the thread, rather than something new.

His speculations about your motives were not, IMO, appropriate, and you were entitled to blow them off in the cavalier manner you did.

I apologize for implying that you were being immature when you made that reply.


Hans