OTU Only: What is your take on the Zhodani?

[Ulsyus]

That would depend on the alternative(s).

I like to think that a lot of the Solomani electorate are well aware of the shortcomings of their polity; with the Zhodani, that may be only allowed in the upper upper echelons, the rest of the dissenters get sent to Room 101.

No no no, there's no need to send anyone to a room.

The process is quite simple. The considerate Thought Police seek out those who are discontented. They bring them in for counseling. The counseling helps the poor soul understand what's making them unhappy, and how that can be rectified. In a more primitive society that might mean sessions with a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a life coach, a theologian, grief counselor, or any of a number of such service providers in a myriad of combinations over an extended period of time trying to teach some schmuck how their head works. In a Zhodani-based society, a single telepsychotherapist can seek out the cause of the unhappiness inside the subject's conscious and unconscious minds, help nudge a few attitudes and opinions in the right direction, then put a management plan involving their family, friends and work colleagues into play. The poor soul then becomes a contented soul, happy with life again, and is able to go back to becoming a committed and productive member of society. What's so sinister about that?!?

 

[mike wightman]

For example, the Tavrchedle' are not an oppressive Thought Police,
because of the very nature of Zhodani society. Psionics in use in Zhodane make
things more open, rather than more oppressive.

And note that they don't even lock the doors in the re-education centres.

 

[whulorigan]

The irony here is that the supposedly middle of the road choice ("No better or worse") is still pretty damning.

I chose "No Better or Worse . . . " because I think that it generally fits the MWM (et al) philosophy of "peeling back the layers to get at the truth behind the rhetoric" that seems to be a regular theme of Traveller since the CT days. In other words, the Imperial viewpoint concerning the Zhodani is a mix of both some valid observations alongside cultural misunderstandings promulgated in Imperial media (just as the Imperial viewpoint of itself is a mix of both its own positive strengths and a blindness to its own shortcomings).

The Zhodani see themselves as noble (and in many ways are), but likewise suffer from cultural myopia concerning themselves. Their assessment of the "mental sickness" of non-Psionic societies in general (and the Imperials in particular) may be a valid critique, but because the Intendants (and especially Nobles) can hide their true feelings and motivations from each other, there is the potential for abuse of their position in the "ideal" Zhodani system of culture and government.

Concerning the Zhodani culture in general, I would typically think that a society that has so mastered the art of deep-probing telepathy would not need to do significant amounts of "brainwashing" on their citizens, but rather could "know for certain" what position in a society a person is best suited for and would give them the most contentment by analyzing directly "what makes them tick", so to speak, and steering those Proles in the appropriate direction. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that when the Consulate has need for people to do "unpleasant tasks" that they can't manipulate their citizens to do so, but that would be one of the reasons in which the Zhodani "pie-in-the-sky" view of their society does not match reality (and is a source for valid Imperial criticism and apprehension).

The degree to which you see the Psionic Eilte taking advantage of and abusing their position (after taking Zhodani cultural values and mores into account), combined with the degree of prevalence of manipulation to steer citizens toward the "unpleasant tasks" noted above is what will color your view of the Zhodani one way or the other.

 

[aramis]

I chose Good Guys.

See, I accept the CT module as an out of universe declaration of facts, not anything else.

And, at least from the point of view of the average Zhodani prole, life is good, the nobles are worthy, and if you're miserable, there is a cure for it.

I wouldn't mind living there. No little white lies about health. No one so fixated on winning a game that they flip the table over if they lose. (Well, really, they might, but they won't do it a second time...)

The Nobles are not spotless, but they're by no means worse than the median government in the 3I. They're honest, blunt, and generally hardworking.

This isn't to say I don't see the dark side of it... someone who can't be cured will be disposed of. Those who don't conform will probably be tolerated only as long as they aren't disrupting others and aren't obviously miserable. And their response to even relatively minor misdemeanors is essentially the same as for murderers and rapists.

And, adding in Expedition to Zhodane... they can make perfectly hidden moles if they just get a week with you in reeducation. Zho society has no room for personal privacy...

They aren't evil, but they aren't perfection, either.

 

[flykiller]

What's so sinister about that?!?

nothing ...

... if you're the one deciding what is happy, what is productive, et al. because "happy" and "productive" will, of course and by default, naturally, by your/god's will, be what benefits YOU, how could it be otherwise?

if you're not the one deciding, that's ok too, because you'll never know the difference.

The degree to which you see the Psionic Eilte taking advantage of and abusing their position ... will color your view of the Zhodani one way or the other.

1) there are many humans who seek power over other humans. the reasons why should require no explication.
2) the power sought has no particular limit - they'll take as much as they can get.
3) the power acquired is ratcheting - each level of power achieved a) is never relinquished and b) leads to the next step of power acquisition.
4) this dynamic and process is well illustrated in human history.

if one accepts that the zhodani elite are able to practice mind-control - to control, not merely what people think and do, but what they know and believe, control beyond the reach of even japanese daimyos and moslem effendi and egyptian pharaohs and catholic popes - then this adds a further dynamic unknown in human history, and given human nature there is no reason to think that dynamic will be positive.

the consulate would be a vast human disaster, mitigated only by occasional localized total failure and collapse, to be replaced only by more of the same.

I wouldn't mind living there.

exactly.

 

[whulorigan]

The degree to which you see the Psionic Eilte taking advantage of and abusing their position (after taking Zhodani cultural values and mores into account), combined with the degree of prevalence of manipulation to steer citizens toward the "unpleasant tasks" noted above is what will color your view of the Zhodani one way or the other.

1) there are many humans who seek power over other humans. the reasons why should require no explication.
2) the power sought has no particular limit - they'll take as much as they can get.
3) the power acquired is ratcheting - each level of power achieved a) is never relinquished and b) leads to the next step of power acquisition.
4) this dynamic and process is well illustrated in human history.

if one accepts that the zhodani elite are able to practice mind-control - to control, not merely what people think and do, but what they know and believe, control beyond the reach of even japanese daimyos and moslem effendi and egyptian pharaohs and catholic popes - then this adds a further dynamic unknown in human history, and given human nature there is no reason to think that dynamic will be positive.

That is why I said: " . . (after taking Zhodani cultural values and mores into account), combined with the degree of prevalence of manipulation to steer citizens toward the "unpleasant tasks" noted above . . . " in the part of the quote you omitted.

It would depend on the degree of moral character in the leaders, and how much they believe in their system in order to self-police. It may be that they don't, and take full advantage of their position (certainly there are plenty of precedents in the cultures of Terran human history that could be used as examples) - that is not at all unreasonable. Alternatively, however, the widespread use and acceptance of psionics may have had a profound impact on the development of their culture over millenia, leading to a totally unprecedented and unique culture with a high moral imperative among its leaders who believe in their system. Various religions and philosophies in Terran history (which will not be named) have had a profound impact on the people and cultures they have shaped. It is a fallacy to make the a priori presumption that the leadership of the Zhodani have no belief in anything other than their own personal and collective advancement. They may or may not.

So, as I said, which of the two propositions noted above that you hold will determine the nature of the Zhodani Consulate IYTU.

 

[flykiller]

It would depend on the degree of moral character in the leaders, and how much they believe in their system in order to self-police.

of course, at any given moment. and that's my point. 1) power attracts those who wish to exercise it, 2) power corrupts, and 3) the entire system ratchets down towards total control.

leading to a totally unprecedented and unique culture with a high moral imperative among its leaders who believe in their system.

and that's my point. it's THEIR system. theirs and theirs alone, they answer to no-one least of all the proles. you'll have to explain why this would lead to any kind of moral imperative other than their own selves and each other - and given the vast human history of court intrigues, coups, and assassinations, the explanation will have to consist of something more than "because".

heh. one reads that anyone with psionic talent is elevated. one may easily imagine that this "elevation" is accompanied by mental conditioning first. "you will be loyal to the order", which evolves into "you will be loyal to me", which later is changed to "new programming, now you will be loyal to ME" ....

heh. one recalls that defeated samurai were required to commit seppuku along with their defeated masters. one may easily envision palace coups resulting in entire planetary populations wiping out themselves ....

 

[aramis]

The Zhodani nobility are subject to the Guardians as much as any prole. A noble raising his psi shield is likely to draw unwanted attention. And, as I've pointed before, there should be enough guardians that every elementary school has one in place; the power hungry probably don't have that trait survive. It's probably edited out of the population.

And remember as well - the Zhodani are also able to practice eugenics - traits they don't want, like ambition, can be subverted both in the person alone (by mind-alteration), but also from the gene pool (by deletion of their procreative desires).

 

[mike wightman]

Intendents and nobles are allowed privacy of thought:

Privacy of thoughts is highly respected among the Zhodani upper classes, although
proles have no such right. Nobles have almost complete right of personal
privacy, and intendants nearly as much.

They need proles to procreate.
Psionic potential is not genetic, so to increase the psionic population they need the intendents.

I don't recall anything about Zhodani eugenics programs...

 

[Condottiere]

The anti-viagra.

 

[aramis]

Intendents and nobles are allowed privacy of thought:


They need proles to procreate.
Psionic potential is not genetic, so to increase the psionic population they need the intendents.

I don't recall anything about Zhodani eugenics programs...

It's not in the blackletter - but the rules for telepathic alteration could easily include psychological sterilization.

And the blackletter is a cultural (and futile, given the rules) attempt to breed stronger psis. The nobility really don't NEED the intendants; the intendants are a way of removing those most likely to be resistant from the pool.

I did the math for hans once - given the 1d inherited, if you select for a trait, within 15 generations, it can be dominant in a population with a presumed 6 for the first die.

Also note: when the rules for the Zhodani were written, the inheritance of attributes mechanic wasn't present, and the third party version was a mere ±1, not replacing a whole die. (The third party rules I recall using were from a fanzine, and were simple: if child's rolled att† is < both parents' rolled atts†, +1 to att; if child's rolled att† at 18 is > both parents rolled atts†.
† in other words, att at age 18; for the parents, after any parental effect.)

 

[flykiller]

The Zhodani nobility are subject to the Guardians as much as any prole.

ok. then everything I've said applies to the guardians.

(it's turtles, all the way up.)

(can you imagine the psychic wars over who gets to be a guardian?)

And remember as well - the Zhodani are also able to practice eugenics - traits they don't want

heh. the new man, engineered for pliability and dependency. ruled, of course, by the old man, who needs no eugenics.

Intendents and nobles are allowed privacy of thought

heh. "allowed". and who is it that gets to allow - and disallow - this?

I don't recall anything about Zhodani eugenics programs...

oh such programs would exist. as would mega-frenetic mega-research into how to generate psionic ability and enhance psionic ability and - AND - how to suppress it in one's opponents.

 

[aramis]

ok. then everything I've said applies to the guardians.

(it's turtles, all the way up.)

(can you imagine the psychic wars over who gets to be a guardian?)

If the first batch are meddlesome but well meaning, their successors are likely to be reworked into their own image by them prior to coming to power...

All other top selects promotion systems I've seen have tended to be similar in practice - they select those most like themselves, and groom the pool to be more like themselves before the selection happens.

Remember, we're dealing with a group of people who, when an accusation is made (even against a noble) read the mind of the charged to determine guilt and culpability. A society with near 100% psionic testing (probably to five-nines or better levels), and who consider most crime as either simple error or major mental illness, with little in between. And who have children who grow up knowing that differences are fine, but bad choices are a sickness, and there are doctors for it.

A prole elevation to intendant child is probably pretty thoroughly tweaked at the handover. The well meaning busybody guardians are likely to instill a bunch of triggers there. And basically, make the child ...
... obedient to the foster parents
... not miss the biological parents
... painfully honest
... desiring to help everyone
... willing to work hard.

The Guardians ARE where the power truly lies - they get to modify kids from the get-go. They get to make them paladins without doubts. But they're all already heavily programmed paladins of nice...

From the position of a US or UK citizen looking in, it's pretty damned creepy... it's kind of like The Stepford Wives or Invasion of the Body Snatchers writ large.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'm curious who voted for Goose-stepping Hive mind. I'm even more curious as to what the heck that is.

 

[flykiller]

A society with near 100% psionic testing (probably to five-nines or better levels), and who consider most crime as either simple error or major mental illness, with little in between.

they are the definers of crime. they are not going to view what THEY do, whatever it is, as a crime, or an error, or an illness. what THEY do is what is done, what exists, the way it is, the way it has to be, in whatever moment they do it. by definition. anyone who disagrees will be remade, reformatted, re-created, into someone who agrees, who believes, who knows, that what the rulers do is reality itself. disagreement will be defined as crime.

and then they will attempt to do that to each other.

a daimyo could order his samurai to commit seppuku on demand - and they would. and they spent their lives trying to extend that same control over all other daimyo in the land. can you imagine the control a psychic empire would have, the wars they would fight. it would make the imperial rebellion period look like a fight between kindergarteners.

now of course it's a game. the referee can rule however he likes. wonderful society, everyone is taken care of, everything is awesome, everything is cool when you're part of our team .... but if the ruling is not based on some kind of reality then that referee will then find he has to make ruling after ruling, game after game, trying to maintain a setting that doesn't slowly alienate the players. that's all.

 

[flykiller]

I'm curious who voted for Goose-stepping Hive mind.

on the poll graphic, click on a number. you'll see who voted for what.

 

[kilemall]

they are the definers of crime. they are not going to view what THEY do, whatever it is, as a crime, or an error, or an illness. what THEY do is what is done, what exists, the way it is, the way it has to be, in whatever moment they do it. by definition. anyone who disagrees will be remade, reformatted, re-created, into someone who agrees, who believes, who knows, that what the rulers do is reality itself. disagreement will be defined as crime.

and then they will attempt to do that to each other.

a daimyo could order his samurai to commit seppuku on demand - and they would. and they spent their lives trying to extend that same control over all other daimyo in the land. can you imagine the control a psychic empire would have, the wars they would fight. it would make the imperial rebellion period look like a fight between kindergarteners.

now of course it's a game. the referee can rule however he likes. wonderful society, everyone is taken care of, everything is awesome, everything is cool when you're part of our team .... but if the ruling is not based on some kind of reality then that referee will then find he has to make ruling after ruling, game after game, trying to maintain a setting that doesn't slowly alienate the players. that's all.

Sounds like an entire society living inside this song-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cQgQIMlwWw

Eh, you know come to think of it, that movie does have the core critique I have of Zho society.

Everyone gets glued down as part of The Plan.

No room for messiness or madness or oddball strange obsessions that go into fractal low probability high chance of failure behaviors-

but also holds the prospect of something new.

 

[Blue Ghost]

What?! No anonymous ballot? Oh well

But what exactly is a "goose stepping hive mind"?

 

[whulorigan]

I'm curious who voted for Goose-stepping Hive mind. I'm even more curious as to what the heck that is.

That would be Flykiller. (And you can often click on one of the numerical results in a poll and it will take you to the breakdown and who voted for what).

What?! No anonymous ballot? Oh well

Some ballots are and some aren't. That has to be set up by the pollster.

 

[mike wightman]

I'm curious who voted for Goose-stepping Hive mind. I'm even more curious as to what the heck that is.

It's what flykiller wanted as a voting option:

there is no way to know what the consulate is. mind-reading? psychic alteration? we have no experience in any of this and speculation as how it all would pan out never rises above speculation. my guess is that it would be a happy north korea with hive people marching around in 18th century battalions, but that response isn't in the poll and there's no way to know anyway.