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What makes the Imperium a Feudal Technocracy?

rancke

Absent Friend
Marc Miller has said that the Imperium is a Feudal Technocracy.

I don't get it.

I don't understand just how a feudal technocracy works and I don't see how the way the Imperium is described as working makes it a technocracy.

Can anyone explain to me 1) how a feudal technocracy works, 2) how the Imperium works, and 3) how that makes the Imperium a feudal technocracy?


Hans
 
Wish i could but i can't.

I don't get it either.

The Imperium is technologically superior to the majority of its member worlds, but doesn't use that technology to benefit or control those worlds, so one of the primary definitions of technocracy disappears.

Feudal I can understand up to a point. A distant Emperor grants titles to people who will rule in his name and with his authority at great distance form the seat of power - this requires trust, a sense of obligation and duty - the romantic trappings of feudalism if you like.
 
Wish i could but i can't.

I don't get it either.

The Imperium is technologically superior to the majority of its member worlds, but doesn't use that technology to benefit or control those worlds, so one of the primary definitions of technocracy disappears.
You're overlooking the primary benefit to those lower tech level worlds: Security.

Security in the meaning that their neighbors are not allowed to come in and conquer them, nor to raid and enslave them.

The very membership in an organization with some semblance of Rule of Law is primarily of benefit to the lesser members.
 
You're overlooking the primary benefit to those lower tech level worlds: Security.
No, we're unable to fit the concept of security to the normal definition of 'technological'.

Security in the meaning that their neighbors are not allowed to come in and conquer them, nor to raid and enslave them.
But what is it that makes the protector a feudal technocrat rather than an autocrat?


Hans
 
How a Feudal Technocracy works is those who control the means of production and the guns controls society.

in such a society their are three ways to advance, A) Get Rich and buy a Industrial Concern, B) Get Yourself a Science/Technical based education and leverage that in to Wealth & Status or C) Join the Military as an Officer and get paid well by those who own the Guns to control them on their behalf.

Of cause if you join the Space Navy you can combine B&C and go further faster.
 
How a Feudal Technocracy works is those who control the means of production and the guns controls society.
And this differs from democracies, oligarchies, bureaucracies, and dictatorships exactly how?

And just how does controlling guns translate into providing technical services to people who agree to be ruled?


Hans
 
How dose controlling the Guns translate in to providing Technical Services? it doesn't directly, but say you own the Breathing Air factory and derive your right to rule from that and the commodity it produces, controlling the Guns stops the Proles from deciding to institute a Democracy and Socialising your Breathing Air factory as property of the new Democracy they just voted themselves just for the hell of it. Controlling the Guns allows you to have enough time to smash the key components of your Breathing Air factory and make it to your Yacht should Democracy brake out due to some extreme reason.
 
How dose controlling the Guns translate in to providing Technical Services? it doesn't directly, but say you own the Breathing Air factory and derive your right to rule from that and the commodity it produces, controlling the Guns stops the Proles from deciding to institute a Democracy and Socialising your Breathing Air factory as property of the new Democracy they just voted themselves just for the hell of it. Controlling the Guns allows you to have enough time to smash the key components of your Breathing Air factory and make it to your Yacht should Democracy brake out due to some extreme reason.

That doesn't help distinguish between feudal technocracies and any other kind of government, nor does it explain just how a feudal technocracy functions.


Hans
 
Ok think of it this way, You own a Air Factory, in return for keeping the Air Factory up and running (providing a technical service) you are given Governorship of the city the air factory provides for. the same could be said for countless other technical based services, like controlling the J3 rated shipping line that brings in essential commodities to an isolated world.

the Social Contract is you provide Technical Services (most likely of the essential kind) and you get to be part of the ruling class.
 
Ok think of it this way, You own a Air Factory, in return for keeping the Air Factory up and running (providing a technical service) you are given Governorship of the city the air factory provides for. the same could be said for countless other technical based services, like controlling the J3 rated shipping line that brings in essential commodities to an isolated world.

the Social Contract is you provide Technical Services (most likely of the essential kind) and you get to be part of the ruling class.
I still don't see the difference between that and people owning factories under other government forms.

Also, it's not a technocracy unless the guy who gets to rule is the actual technical expert. Just owning the factory isn't enough.



Hans
 
This is my off the cuff interpretation.

It is "feudal" to the extent that the nominal ruling class derives power from their social position, which may or may not have been inherited, and tie into the overall political power structure by means of personal oaths. (In a more meta sense, feudal could also be shorthand for "We have barons and dukes and such").

It is "technocratic" from the standpoint that the nobility principally owns and directs the means of production, in the form of the megacorporations and that control and protection of the Imperium relies on technology, (the X-Boat network, advanced data processing and communications and the Navy).

Essentially, the TI relies on a technologically trained and savvy social class to run its governing institutions.
 
This is my off the cuff interpretation.

It is "feudal" to the extent that the nominal ruling class derives power from their social position, which may or may not have been inherited, and tie into the overall political power structure by means of personal oaths. (In a more meta sense, feudal could also be shorthand for "We have barons and dukes and such").

It is "technocratic" from the standpoint that the nobility principally owns and directs the means of production, in the form of the megacorporations and that control and protection of the Imperium relies on technology, (the X-Boat network, advanced data processing and communications and the Navy).

Essentially, the TI relies on a technologically trained and savvy social class to run its governing institutions.

In other words the Third Imperium is a feudal technocracy because it's not feudal and its not a technocracy?


Hans
 
And this differs from democracies, oligarchies, bureaucracies, and dictatorships exactly how?

And just how does controlling guns translate into providing technical services to people who agree to be ruled?


Hans
Since you reject the answers presented so far on the grounds that they offer no difference from other forms of government, perhaps you could answer a few questions to clarify what sort of information you are looking for:

How do the rulers of a Democracy derive power and exercise control?

How do the rulers of a Oligarchy derive power and exercise control?

How do the rulers of a Bureaucracy derive power and exercise control?

How do the rulers of a Dictatorship derive power and exercise control?

My hope is that once I understand how you view these other forms of government being different from each other, I will either ...
... be able to explain how a Feudal Technocracy functions and is different
... or I will agree with your opinion that it is a distinction without a difference.
 
often times the owning family gained their position from having a direct hand in providing the service, now this may be in the distant past and the current Nobles are now Management, Trust Fund Babies and/or in other government or military service.

look at the Oberlinders family, they are "New" nobility, they still work their Ships before moving up in to Management of the company or the families estates, the Hers to the title know how to helm a multi K-ton Merchant ship or plot a jump, but it would be a very rear Tukera who could even pilot there own yacht. but both are families who's title and position are based on providing the technical service of interstellar transport.
 
How do the rulers of a Democracy derive power and exercise control?

How do the rulers of a Oligarchy derive power and exercise control?

How do the rulers of a Bureaucracy derive power and exercise control?

How do the rulers of a Dictatorship derive power and exercise control?
They all conform to their dictionary definitions.


Hans
 
Just some fodder for the discussion from WIKIPEDIA:

The concept of a technocracy remains mostly hypothetical, though some nations have been considered as such in the sense of being governed primarily by technical experts in various fields of governmental decision making. A technocrat has come to mean either 'a member of a powerful technical elite', or 'someone who advocates the supremacy of technical experts'.[1][2][3] Examples include scientists, engineers, economists, and technologists who have special knowledge, expertise, or skills, and would compose the governing body, instead of politicians and business people.[4] In a technocracy, decision makers would be selected based upon how knowledgeable and skillful they are in their field.

The term technocracy was originally used to designate the application of the scientific method to solving social problems, in counter distinction to the traditional economic, political, or philosophic approaches. According to the proponents of this concept, the role of money and economic values, political opinions, and moralistic control mechanisms would be eliminated altogether if and when this form of social control should ever be implemented in a continental area endowed with enough natural resources, technically trained personnel, and installed industrial equipment. In such an arrangement, concern would be given to sustainability within the resource base, instead of monetary profitability, so as to ensure continued operation of all social-industrial functions into the indefinite future. Technical and leadership skills would be selected on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than democratic election by those without such knowledge or skill deemed necessary.[5]

Some uses of the word technocracy refer to a form of meritocracy, a system where the "most qualified" and those who decide the validity of qualifications are the same people. Other applications have been described as not being an oligarchic human group of controllers, but rather administration by discipline-specific science, ostensibly without the influence of special interest groups.[6] The word technocracy has also been used to indicate any kind of management or administration by specialized experts ('technocrats') in any field, not just physical science, and the adjective 'technocratic' has been used to describe governments that include non-elected professionals at a ministerial level.[7][8]

Feudalism is a grouping of legal and military customs, prevalent in medieval Europe, which flourished between the 9th and 15th centuries, or any similar grouping of legal and military customs. Simply defined, it was a system for structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour.

Although derived from the Latin word feodum or feudum (fief),[1] then in use, the term feudalism and the system it describes were not conceived of as a formal political system by the people living in the medieval period. In its classic definition, by François-Louis Ganshof (1944),[2] feudalism describes a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals and fiefs.[2]

There is also a broader definition, as described by Marc Bloch (1939), that includes not only warrior nobility but all three estates of the realm: the nobility, the clerics and the peasantry bonds of manorialism; this is sometimes referred to as a "feudal society". Since the publication of Elizabeth A. R. Brown's "The Tyranny of a Construct" (1974) and Susan Reynolds' Fiefs and Vassals (1994), there has been ongoing inconclusive discussion among medieval historians as to whether feudalism is a useful construct for understanding medieval society.[3][4][5][6][7] Abels notes that, "Western Civilization and World Civilization textbooks now shy away from the term 'feudalism'."[8]

Feudal: a system for structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of Technology and Trade Monopolies in exchange for Taxes and Naval Starships.
Technocracy: not an oligarchic human group of controllers, but administration by discipline-specific science (Interstellar Trade and Technology).

Those who control the Stars, control the government ... everything else is just details.
 
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So are you saying the Imperium would be a feudal technocracy only if the nobles were the only ones who can build gravitics, jump drives and the like - or at least control the robotic factories in which such things are constructed?

But they aren't, so it isn't. ;) :)
 
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So are you saying the Imperium would be a feudal technocracy only if the nobles were the only ones who can build gravitics, jump drives and the like - or at least control the robotic factories in which such things are constructed?

But they aren't, so it isn't.

How many business owners and corporate officers have been given Noble status? How many corporate boards are completely filled with Nobles? How many MegaCorps are mostly owned by Nobles? How easy (or hard) is it to get a Knighthood?

It's not so much that the Nobles do or don't control them. Anyone who does control them is brought into the Nobility 'inner circle'.

Does anyone ever refuse Noble status? And if someone does, wouldn't it be in the Imperium's best interests to stop them? Either covertly or creating a cover story and sending in either "the troops" or a Merc cruiser or two?
 
There are whole worlds within the Imperium that are industrial power houses (high pop TL15) that have their own governments and no direct Imperial noble ruler, since dukes are the first tier and they rule at a sub-sector level.

If Dukes ruled TL15 high pop worlds directly then you would have a case for saying the Imperium is a feudal technocracy.

But they don't, so it isn't ;) :)
 
There are whole worlds within the Imperium that are industrial power houses (high pop TL15) that have their own governments and no direct Imperial noble ruler, since dukes are the first tier and they rule at a sub-sector level.

Which are completely overshadowed by the MegaCorporations - all of which have both Imperial Family and Noble stockholders.

One world is a small fish in a big pond. And almost no threat to the economic and military might the Imperium can bring to bear.
 
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