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What makes the Imperium a Feudal Technocracy?

Consider this as a possibility: in Traveller, "feudal technocracy" is a term of art; its meaning in Traveller is what Traveller says it means, not what a RL dictionary says it means. Thus, when Traveller says that the Third Imperium is a "feudal technocracy", that is both a descriptive and a prescriptive statement. That is, "In Traveller, the Third Imperium is a feudal technocracy because the Third Imperium is the archetype of a feudal technocracy as Traveller defines the term of art."

No, that doesn't provide an elegant solution... just a different POV.
 
mike wightman said:
There are whole worlds within the Imperium that are industrial power houses (high pop TL15) that have their own governments and no direct Imperial noble ruler, since dukes are the first tier and they rule at a sub-sector level.
Which are completely overshadowed by the MegaCorporations - all of which have both Imperial Family and Noble stockholders.
That's actually not very likely. If megacorporate wealth is based on interstellar trade, they are likely to be powerful in absolute terms, yes, but not compared to high-tech high-population worlds, since interstellar trade is portrayed as being comparatively insignificant.

That actually fits well with the tendency the Imperium is shown to have in several mercenary tickets to keep a tight rein on megacorporate activities; the Imperium is more concerned with keeping the member worlds sweet than with pleasing the megacorporations.

Also note that the one megacorporate CEO we know of (Blaine Tukera) is only a count, not even a duke. And an honor count, not a high count either.
One world is a small fish in a big pond. And almost no threat to the economic and military might the Imperium can bring to bear.
Well, one high-tech, high-population world is no threat to an Imperium backed by the other high-tech, high-population worlds. Keep in mind that those worlds build the Imperium's warships for it -- and then build planetary navies worth twice as much.


Hans
 
Consider this as a possibility: in Traveller, "feudal technocracy" is a term of art; its meaning in Traveller is what Traveller says it means, not what a RL dictionary says it means. Thus, when Traveller says that the Third Imperium is a "feudal technocracy", that is both a descriptive and a prescriptive statement. That is, "In Traveller, the Third Imperium is a feudal technocracy because the Third Imperium is the archetype of a feudal technocracy as Traveller defines the term of art."
It's true that there is no dictionary definition of the compound term 'feudal technocracy' and that compound terms sometimes have meanings that has nothing to do with the individual words used in the term, so that we can't be absolutely sure that a feudal technocracy is a technocracy that is feudal, but Traveller itself provides a definition:

"5 Feudal Technocracy. Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial." [TB:85] (Emphasis mine).​

I submit that the Imperium ought to conform to the Traveller definition.

In any case, defining the Imperium as the archetype of a feudal technocracy doesn't help explain what makes a feudal technocracy distinct from the other government types.


Hans
 
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Seems to me the TI is feudal as it meets this ATP's quoted criteria: "Simply defined, it was a system for structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour."

And that it also fits the bill of an Oligarchy (from Wiki): "Is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people. These people could be distinguished by royalty, wealth, family ties, education, corporate, religious or military control."

There are too many BFE planets with Imperial membership and low tech levels (low standards of living?) for the TI to claim it provides technical services which impact a system for the better, how many starports has the TI built to provide interstellar services?

I'd call it a flat out dictatorship for the benefit of the privileged few.

A call to arms Comrades!!!

:D
 
Well, I don't have the GURPS book that discusses such things, and I'm given to understand that it's the best source for understanding the Imperial feudal structure, so I'm a bit out in the wilderness here.

I get where "feudal" comes from, if we substitute political power for land. The dichotomy between the nobles described in the game and the titles handed out willy-nilly during character generation has always muddied that one a bit. There are nobles who get land grants and exercise considerable political power in the name of the Emperor - and their political power seems to be more important than whatever wealth they derive from their estates - and then there is a class of nobility in title only, given respect and deference for their lineage or accomplishments but little or nothing beyond that.

As for the "technocracy" part, we seem to be debating two different definitions of technocracy: one in which government derives from control of technology and the means to produce it, and one in which government is by individuals expertly trained in how to govern.

The question then is: which definition does Marc intend? Is he implying that the Imperium controls the flow of technology to its advantage - that there are laws and regulations that keep the TL6 world from tapping into the wealth of TL15 knowledge out there to advance itself and make its businesses more profitable?

Or, is he implying that the vast Imperial bureaucracy upon which the nobles rely are carefully trained experts in the art of governance, that they can predict with fair accuracy what the economic and social results of this or that policy will be and provide that guidance to their Noble lords, who make the final decision on behalf of the emperor, that these employees are expert in information-gathering, communications, management and resource allocation and are therefore uniquely able to implement the noble's will across a region spanning many light years and burdened by week-long communication lags between neighboring stars, and so on?

CT book 3 defines it as, "Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial." Since the member planets do agree to yield sovereignty in the regions beyond their orbit to the Imperium, and since the writ of the Imperial noble only covers those regions - with a very few carefully enumerated exceptions - that first sentence is accurate, with the proviso that agreement appears to be permanently binding once given, and that at points in history the Imperium was not above extorting agreement by threat or force.

The question then is whether it's the first or second definition above that satisfies the second sentence.
 
The question then is whether it's the first or second definition above that satisfies the second sentence.

Technology is far from equally distributed across the Imperium. To say that the distribution of technology is controlled by the Imperium (deliberately or otherwise) is all good Machiavellian fun.

Who's to say what advice the nobles take in the day to day administering of their feudal holdings? It is very plausible.

It could be that both definitions are merged to provide the answer.

Adjust YTU to suit!
 
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Political and administrative services are not technical.


Hans

Technical has multiple meanings in my dictionary, one of them reads:

of or relating to a particular subject, art, or craft, or its techniques: technical terms | a test of an artist's technical skill.
• (esp. of a book or article) requiring special knowledge to be understood: a technical report.


It is not just applied to the fields of science and engineering. The technique of governance is a valid interpretation and would be practiced by technicians.
 
Marc Miller has said that the Imperium is a Feudal Technocracy.

I don't get it.

I don't understand just how a feudal technocracy works and I don't see how the way the Imperium is described as working makes it a technocracy.

Can anyone explain to me 1) how a feudal technocracy works, 2) how the Imperium works, and 3) how that makes the Imperium a feudal technocracy?


Hans



I'm sure this discussion has gone thru COTI and the TML before, and I'm sure you've seen and probably contributed to those discussions. Can you write out the important points for us? Do we have to start from step one? How far can we go with definitions before we're in the weeds? Help!
 
Technical has multiple meanings in my dictionary, one of them reads:

of or relating to a particular subject, art, or craft, or its techniques: technical terms | a test of an artist's technical skill.
• (esp. of a book or article) requiring special knowledge to be understood: a technical report.


It is not just applied to the fields of science and engineering. The technique of governance is a valid interpretation and would be practiced by technicians.
I don't agree. Using that interpretation of 'technician' makes all government forms into technocracies, so it's too broad to be useful.

But be that as it may, Imperial nobles don't have their jobs because they're trained "governmental technicians"; their positions are hereditary. They may have training in governance, but just how does that make them technocrats as opposed to oligarchs or dictators? Any heir to a rulership has a good chance of getting some training.


Hans
 
Ahh, but here's an interpretation on which we both might agree.

In MgT's Core Rule book (page 175 of my PDF), government type 8, Civil Service Bureaucracy is defined as "Ruling functions are performed by government agencies employing individuals selected for their expertise." With examples Technocracy and Communism.

I think the difference we are talking about is what puts the face of government in its place. With the 3rd Imperium its unelected hereditary nobles most of whom have no training in how to govern which could easily be argued is an oligarchy or form of dictatorship.

It could also be that the complexity of any government is hard to characterise with just one title. The nobles are an oligarchy or dictatorship, the actual people doing the leg work of governing are technocrats, meritocrats or just plain old civil servants.

The technical activities the government administers for the populace could be the sewers, trash and street lighting.
 
I think the difference we are talking about is what puts the face of government in its place. With the 3rd Imperium its unelected hereditary nobles most of whom have no training in how to govern which could easily be argued is an oligarchy or form of dictatorship.

What? They're untrained? Are you sure? In several rule sets, nobility is a career. And anyway, there are skills useful for governing in the Traveller games... and there are all sorts of jobs the nobility could fill in the machinery of running a world, so there's no reason some of these skills could match some government opportunities...

And... if the Imperium is an oligarchy or dictatorship, then why not call it that?

I guess the root question is "In what way can the Imperium resemble a technocracy?"
 
Since both Mike and Hans both can't wrap their heads around it, then there is an actual definition problem here, either in nomenclature, or the terms are applied to the Imperium.

"Technocracy" typically means the technical people control things. I can't see that here.

Maybe if it meant "he who has the best technology, has the power", then it would make more sense?
 
To be fair, no, of course I am not sure :)

On further thought, feudal technocracy isn't so far off the mark. The lands/systems are assigned by nobility to nobility with the nuts and bolts of government done by a group trained to govern. Yes, some of them are nobles.

Given the many departments of the Imperial government, yeah, its a technocracy but not in a technological way.

Did we answer the OP's question?
 
Given the many departments of the Imperial government, yeah, its a technocracy but not in a technological way.

Did we answer the OP's question?

I'm afraid it still skirts around the problem. After all, when is a technocracy not a technocracy (i.e. not technologically led)? Aieeeee.
 
"Technocracy" typically means the technical people control things. I can't see that here.

If you only see technical people as mechanical (sic) engineers then yeah but no!

Technical refers to more than science and engineering.

Wait! I'm repeating myself...

Time to bow out smiling!
 
Feudal Technocracy seems to me to be a version of "Free Market/Anarchist's Paradise", informed by Ayn Rand.

Start with a hypothetical free market economy, no civil authority, and a citizen base that has little interest in anything but their personal needs. Everyone enters into contracts to provide ALL (and ONLY) the services they feel benefit them.

Then, churn for a few generations until monopolies arise and lock down their respective parts of the "service ecosystem". Those monopolies enshrine themselves as "feudal" powers, though their "kingdoms" are not land and people, but business sectors, and their "serfs" are under no obligation to participate if they don't desire the offered services.

In my games, I portray FT as cyberpunk-like "companies are the government". They are essentially "Balkanized Corporation" governments. Higher TL worlds will be rife with marketing wars to make sure people "need" certain services, and where there are still choices, to make sure that people select a particular provider. (Blade Runner is a good example.)

FT worlds with low LL and high TL (and Pop) I portray as "success stories" of the FT model. High LL often represents "permit hell", where everyone demands their fees.

As far as MegaCorps go, there's no reason a branch office can't be the FT's provider for a given service, or the primary supplier of a local service provider.
 
Defense via Space Forces, however, is highly technical.
But it's not a technical service. Voting booths are technical too, but employing them doesn't turn a democracy into a technocracy. Computers are technical, but using them to govern doesn't turn a civil service bureaucracy into a technocracy. How does defense performed by a technocracy differ from defense performed by any other form of government?


Hans
 
But it's not a technical service. Voting booths are technical too, but employing them doesn't turn a democracy into a technocracy. Computers are technical, but using them to govern doesn't turn a civil service bureaucracy into a technocracy. How does defense performed by a technocracy differ from defense performed by any other form of government?


Hans

The basis of imperial rule is that it rules the space, not the worlds the space is between. That requires the space forces in a way that a ground-based collection of nation-states doesn't depend upon their armies. (In fact, 20-some current Terran nations lack any formal military at all.)
 
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