I don't believe that's really the case, but be that as it may, I don't get your meaning.
Hans
What makes the Imperium a Feudal Technocracy?
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
Hans
Game say, "Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial." Your Merriam Webster link has a link defining "technical": relating to the practical use of machines or science in industry, medicine, etc.; teaching practical skills rather than ideas about literature, art, etc.; having special knowledge especially of how machines work or of how a particular kind of work is done.
The Imperium does not rule people. The Imperium rules the space between the stars in the Emperor's name and on behalf of a collection of member planets. In that context, its responsibilities are defense, foreign policy, interstellar trade, and possibly such things as making sure there isn't some asteroid on a course to smack your planet 20 to a hundred years from now. In that context, its services to member planets are likely to be predominantly technical as much of it involves the application of science or technology. About the only exception in that mix is foreign policy, and there only the question of diplomacy and decision-making; information gathering in an interstellar setting and with opponents some of whom can read your mind would involve a great deal of technical expertise.
As to the nobles, the game is not saying it's a technocracy. The game is saying it's a feudal technocracy. You owe your position as the Duke of X not to your impeccable skills in handling affairs in X, but to the Emperor; he may move or remove you irrespective of your skills if you do not please him, and there is no appeal process or board of directors to debate the merits of his decision or otherwise gainsay him.
The Duke of Regina does not rule Regina; an impersonal bureaucracy rules Regina, apparently in the body of four randomly selected citizens, if the Wiki's right. The Duke does represent the interests of Regina in the larger Imperial bureaucracy and heads the subsector bureaucracy as a whole.
However, the Duke of Aramis rules Aramis: the world is a feudal technocracy, and he's described in Traveller Adventure as "hereditary head of the government," but it's pretty clear that any technocracying going on is at the hands of his local bureaucracy because he's described as, "a useless profligate who spends most of his time enjoying his wealth and social position," whose leadership duties are limited to, "grant[ing] favors, concessions, or jobs, usually in return for a monetary consideration." He too is a subsector duke heading the subsector bureaucracy, but it's likely that he handles that job the same way he handles the governing of Aramis.
It seems that some nobles are world leaders - rulers - who have also been given rights and responsibilities with respect to the Imperial bureaucracy. However, were the Emperor to take the dramatic option of rescinding their patent, they would nonetheless remain rulers of their worlds, as he has no say in local government - although it is very hard to think of a circumstance that would result in loss of patent that wouldn't also either prompt the local movers on the world itself to depose the ruler in favor of some more acceptable candidate or draw the kind of Imperial attention that would give them rights to intervene. Still every once in a while you get a crazy emperor.
Others nobles may wield considerable influence with local governments as the result of their positions representing the affairs of that world or filling some other vital position within the Imperial government, but they do not rule the planets; those cannot be considered dictators, oligarchs, or any other form of ruler. That means the role they serve is limited to "ruling over" some piece of the Imperial Bureaucracy.
The feudal technocracy is then feudal in the sense that the person exercising authority owes his authority to someone higher in the food chain whose interests he is expected to advance and who - hereditary or not - may rescind that authority. It's technocracy in the sense that said authority mainly deals with technical issues and the bureaucracy implementing the noble's will are technicians knowledgeable about such issues
So some possibilities are:
In other words, the emperor, dukes, counts, marquises, barons, and knights don't run the technical support centers; but, they DO run Imperial defense, communications, survey and exploration, and manage trade, and they do it with technology (and numbers).
Let's run down five of the six LBB1 careers.
The SCOUTS use technology to survey and explore worlds, catalog flora and fauna, identify sophont peoples, to gather gather gather data about Charted Space. They ALSO use tech to run the communications backbone for the Imperium. Yes, the Scouts make do with older technology. Perhaps their stuff is built to take a lot of mishandling?
IMPERIAL SCOUT SERVICE: (potentially) Technocratic.
The ARMY and MARINES use superior technology to suppress problems. PGMP-15 and Battledress, for example.
IMPERIAL ARMY and MARINES: (potentially) Technocratic.
The NAVY use superior technology to whomp on the Swordies, Joes, Aslan, Vargr... whoever they can.
IMPERIAL NAVY: (potentially) Technocratic.
The MERCHANTS... well those are incarnated in the Megacorps. And even tho' the megacorps are not government, we do see that the nobility owns significant chunks of voting rights in those megacorps. And the megacorps buy technology from supply worlds, and distribute it to needy worlds, and make a tidy profit.
IMPERIAL MEGACORPS: (potentially) Technocratic, in that they control the supply of technology on the markets.
(Historical pattern: the Ziru Sirka's three bureau live on as... yeah, megacorps. They've become more focused. The other historical datum is of course old Zhunatsu Industries.)
I see a pattern.
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In other words, the emperor, dukes, counts, marquises, barons, and knights don't run the technical support centers; but, they DO run Imperial defense, communications, survey and exploration, and manage trade, and they do it with technology (and numbers).
Let's run down five of the six LBB1 careers.
The SCOUTS use technology to survey and explore worlds, catalog flora and fauna, identify sophont peoples, to gather gather gather data about Charted Space. They ALSO use tech to run the communications backbone for the Imperium. Yes, the Scouts make do with older technology. Perhaps their stuff is built to take a lot of mishandling?
IMPERIAL SCOUT SERVICE: (potentially) Technocratic.
The ARMY and MARINES use superior technology to suppress problems. PGMP-15 and Battledress, for example.
IMPERIAL ARMY and MARINES: (potentially) Technocratic.
The NAVY use superior technology to whomp on the Swordies, Joes, Aslan, Vargr... whoever they can.
IMPERIAL NAVY: (potentially) Technocratic.
The MERCHANTS... well those are incarnated in the Megacorps. And even tho' the megacorps are not government, we do see that the nobility owns significant chunks of voting rights in those megacorps. And the megacorps buy technology from supply worlds, and distribute it to needy worlds, and make a tidy profit.
IMPERIAL MEGACORPS: (potentially) Technocratic, in that they control the supply of technology on the markets.
(Historical pattern: the Ziru Sirka's three bureau live on as... yeah, megacorps. They've become more focused. The other historical datum is of course old Zhunatsu Industries.)
I see a pattern.
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Any definition of feudal technocracies that doesn't distinguish them from other forms of government is IMO nugatory. That's not to say that there may not be specific governments where the distinction is blurred, as the monarchy that may or may not be considered a democracy, a civil service bureaucracy or an autocracy. But if you can look at the definition and say "the same could be said about an autocracy or a democracy or an oligarchy or whatever", then the definition is useless.
But as I argued in another post, that doesn't make it a technocracy. With a few fringe exceptions there is hardly any government in Charted Space that doesn't use technology of some kind to perform some of its functions. That doesn't make them technocracies.
And you don't think that feudal technocracies would be technocracies?
Which is why I don't get how the Imperium can be any kind of technocracy, feudal or otherwise.
(That was the main point I wanted to make. The rest are a few minor corrections that don't affect the main discussion much.)
The Duke of Regina runs the Duchy of Regina. The Marquis of Regina is Regina's high noble. They happen to be co-located in the same body, but they're two different hats.
There is no Duke of Aramis and if there was he'd be running the (nonexisting) Duchy of Aramis. You're talking about the Marquis of Aramis.
That could be a setup similar to the Matriarch of Mora (system) also being the Duchess of Mora (Duchy); some sort of linking of two different hats, Imperial noble and world ruler -- or it could be an anomaly.
Hans
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Now.
EVERY tin-pot pocket empire and interstellar government needs at least best-in-class tech and superior numbers in order to enforce things. In other words, the MILITARY of an empire has to be the best, otherwise they're not in charge for long.
So "Technocracy" cannot mean "High Tech Military in Sufficient Numbers". EVERY interstellar state would then be a Technocracy. And they're not, as far as I know.
"Technocracy" COULD mean superiority in, control of, or use of technology at EVERY LEVEL, or the control of some aspect of technology is critical to hold THAT particular empire together. I can't think of positive and negative examples to illustrate the latter. The former is easier to defend, I think, although it seems you could have empires which do use the best possible technology available yet are not Technocracies.
It must be that 'technocracy' means that technology is how the empire operates and holds itself together, on many levels.
Maybe.
But surely every interstellar state relies utterly on technology?
EVERY tin-pot pocket empire and interstellar government needs at least best-in-class tech and superior numbers in order to enforce things. In other words, the MILITARY of an empire has to be the best, otherwise they're not in charge for long.
So "Technocracy" cannot mean "High Tech Military in Sufficient Numbers". EVERY interstellar state would then be a Technocracy. And they're not, as far as I know.
"Technocracy" COULD mean superiority in, control of, or use of technology at EVERY LEVEL, or the control of some aspect of technology is critical to hold THAT particular empire together. I can't think of positive and negative examples to illustrate the latter. The former is easier to defend, I think, although it seems you could have empires which do use the best possible technology available yet are not Technocracies.
It must be that 'technocracy' means that technology is how the empire operates and holds itself together, on many levels.
Maybe.
But surely every interstellar state relies utterly on technology?
Ooh, new word! I had to look that one up.
Well, except that I can't. The Imperium has an emperor, but he rules over no people except nobles, bureaucrats, and other personnel in the employ of the Imperium - and people that happen to be "passing through," so to speak. It ain't a democracy - people have no say. It's not really an autocracy - he's not ruling people, he's ruling a bureaucracy. It's certainly not a corporation. The problem with defining Imperial government isn't that the same could be said about this or that. It's that none of them apply well because the Imperium isn't governing people - it's governing a volume of space and what goes on in it.
In that sense the Imperium is a government in the way that Yosemite National Park is a government - if there was no federal government, the Park Service were entirely independent, and the park happened to wind between the borders of all 50 states so that they had to agree to abide by Park rules before their commerce could reach other states. (And of course, if it had a military force that could whomp the national guard of any state that tried to defy those rules.) It's a government the way the Toll Authority is a government if the Toll Authority was completely independent - they only have power when you want something from them and are pretty much powerless when you stay home.
Not the use of technology. A cave man with a stone ax is using technology. The wording is, "Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial." The Imperium offers a service in exchange for membership. The member world gets defense from the best military force money can buy, in most cases far beyond what the member world can afford or build for itself - not just the ships and the guns, but the intelligence and information gathering infrastructure that warns of distant threats and tries to resolve them before they reach the level of requiring violent action. The member world gets management of interstellar commerce including regulations that ensure safe travel and promote trade. The member world gets its local space policed for natural hazards - something it might otherwise be easily able to do itself (like Mora) or something that may be well beyond its capabilities (like Keng). And, judging from some of the material, the member world might be getting some FEMA-type emergency help if it gets hit by something bigger than what it can handle by itself.
The meat inspector is a technocrat, after a fashion. It's not the technology he uses but the skills and knowledge he brings to the job in the course of applying that technology. The meat industry may grumble, but they benefit from the fact that their competition can't undercut their prices and damage their market by cheating on safety.
I am sadly not very well versed on the details of the Order of Precedence. I had no idea there was a Marquis of Regina.
And that's just me being an airhead. I'm looking right at the entry, right there it says, "Marquis Leonard Bolden-Tukera," and I promote the man to Duke.:nonono:
I expect it's more common than not. A world is approached for membership, opts to join, if there's a ruling class then they'll want one of their own to receive the honor, and the ruler himself is most likely to put himself forward - and his heirs therefore to continue the tradition by simple inheritance. There's a lot of nondemocratic worlds in the Imperium. Even if they're reasonably democratic, the person's likely to be some local who has a lot of local power and influence - someone the locals have a lot of respect for or someone with the wealth and influence to put himself at the head of the pack of candidates. To select an outsider and impose him sounds like the kind of thing you'd do if you were welcoming in a new world at gunpoint.
Marquis Bolden-Tukera is de facto the "Subsector Duke" of Aramis, answerable to Count Celepina/Rhylanor. He's also the de jure Government of Aramis/Aramis. His on-world appointees work in his name, his word is on-world law. And his world, and it's city, are also the subsector capital.
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Note that a capital implies an area answerable to it. ANd since Aramis is the subsector capital, that pretty strongly implies, and comes just short of explicitly stating, that the Marquisate is the subsector government.
It is explicit that no higher noble has office on Aramis. (TTA 35) (If there were, the Marquisate would answer to them.) There is a Navy base and a scout base; these administrations are, per the text of TTA, nominally subject to the Marquis, if only because they are on his fief. But note that p. 33 notes that they are maintained by "The Imperium", not the Marquis.
So, as the ranking noble at the capitol, there is extensive potential for asserting authority over the IN and IISS in the subsector. Even if not officially the noble for the subsector, he's got the clout and the access. (He's also a schmuck too busy being a dilettante to bother most of the time.)
This also gives us the basic model for GDW's view of FT....
THe man in charge has a key monopoly, and retains that by using that to get (reasonably) competent people into place upon his own authority. and owes them personally, and they him.
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The Marquis, as head of the feudal technocracy of Ararnis,
grants a variety of subordinata positions in city government
to citizens of Aramis and Leedor in return for money, pledges
of loyalty, and other services.
(TTA, 35)grants a variety of subordinata positions in city government
to citizens of Aramis and Leedor in return for money, pledges
of loyalty, and other services.
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Aramis is the capital of the Aramis subsector, and is described
in the chapter entitled Leedor an Aramis.
(TTA, 18)in the chapter entitled Leedor an Aramis.
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Note that a capital implies an area answerable to it. ANd since Aramis is the subsector capital, that pretty strongly implies, and comes just short of explicitly stating, that the Marquisate is the subsector government.
It is explicit that no higher noble has office on Aramis. (TTA 35) (If there were, the Marquisate would answer to them.) There is a Navy base and a scout base; these administrations are, per the text of TTA, nominally subject to the Marquis, if only because they are on his fief. But note that p. 33 notes that they are maintained by "The Imperium", not the Marquis.
So, as the ranking noble at the capitol, there is extensive potential for asserting authority over the IN and IISS in the subsector. Even if not officially the noble for the subsector, he's got the clout and the access. (He's also a schmuck too busy being a dilettante to bother most of the time.)
This also gives us the basic model for GDW's view of FT....
THe man in charge has a key monopoly, and retains that by using that to get (reasonably) competent people into place upon his own authority. and owes them personally, and they him.
Even if that was true, the Imperium is not the only feudal technocracy in existence. If the Imperium is an FT then whatever makes an FT must apply to the Imperium, yes, but it must also apply to all (or at least most) of the planetary FTs.
It's an autocracy. The distinction between ruling people and ruling a bureaucracy is a) wrong and b) irrelevant.
Then the Imperium isn't an FT either; it's something for which an entirely new word must be coined.
That's my point.
But the service isn't what is normally meant by 'technical'. You're using a, ahem, technicality.
The same could be said of services performed by any other form of interstellar government.
Norris' main titles are Duke of Regina, Count Aledon, Marquis of Regina, and Baron of Yori.
Hans
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Or, alternatively, he isn't. Rather he's the Imperial noble for the world where Imperial pan-subsector offices are located. The Colonial Office Subsector Office, the Scout Subsector Director's office, the X-boat Service Office, etc., etc..
Yes, but we don't know how that came about. Perhaps his fief was originally the Mines of Leedor and when the mines turned into a city the citizens decided to elect the Marquis as the hereditary head of government. Or perhaps the arrangement simply evolved over time.
But then we get the statement in GURPS Nobles about how Aramis is split between three neighboring duchies and we realise that another arrangement must be in place.
That fits perfectly with the concept of imperium.
Oh, no doubt he does.
Interesting. You may have a point there. Except... how does that differ from an autocracy?
Hans
Or the MegaCorps are a much bigger threat than the Imperium is letting on about.
So the Imperium interferes with megacorporate shenanigans in order to conceal that the megacorporations are too powerful to interfere with?
Interresting theory, but I don't buy it.
Hans
Attitude?
A true Autocrat like Stalin or Mussolini fears any power than might challenge his authority ... so the Generals (military leaders) and Ministers (bureaucracy leaders) are kept on a short leash.
In the Imperium, there is a mutual interdependence not typical of a traditional pure autocracy, but which in some ways is more reflective of Feudalism???
[just speculation]
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No, the Imperium interferes with MegaCorp shenanigans to keep the MegaCorps from becoming a larger threat.
Others think so; I disagree. IMO it's using a definition of 'technical' that doesn't apply to 'technocracy'. Just because a word can have more than one meaning doesn't mean that all of the meanings are meant whenever you use it. If you see what I mean.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The very early third Imperium could almost have been a feudal technocracy if you squint, when Cleon Industries were the only makers of fusion+, you would probably also have to extend the discovery of meson screens and possibly nuclear damper technology to them too.
More efficient fusion power and the advantages of meson screens and nuclear dampers would give Cleaon Industries the technological edge needed to be a technocracy, but they didn't maintain this model for very long.
More efficient fusion power and the advantages of meson screens and nuclear dampers would give Cleaon Industries the technological edge needed to be a technocracy, but they didn't maintain this model for very long.
Right - I agree. So, it can't be the control of some key technological innovation that makes the Imperium a technocracy. But that, if anything, "technocracy" seems to be some sort of power held over the governed systems via technology.
And not the military. Or, not JUST the military.
Certain elements of the interstellar government are technocracies - placed into power because they're skilled, and their skill gains them more power, which they use to ensure their status by being efficient, as their power is used to find and recruit the skilled.
As to "how is a FT different than an autocracy?"
Let's see the table (reformatted, but text unchanged from it's appearance in Starter):
Fundamentally? It's the low-pop version...
The government is low enough that the people can be picked for their established skill.
On the Imperial level, that's not quite true.
But note that the other single-ruler autocracies are all minimum pop 4 or higher, while an FT can be generated on a pop of 0-A...
So, being in the middle, it also tends to be a lower law level. Which implies some level of confidence by the governed.
In the case of Aramis - the people there apparently have the right to leave; I suspect HE Leonard would likely offer popsicle passage to anyone unwilling to work and unable to afford to leave, simply because those are the types most likely to become criminals... and it's a "throw some money at it and make it go away" solution to a major social problem.
In practice Aramis (and the 3I) are civil service bureaucracies tied to a semi-feudal oligarchy (the nobles), a portion of which said oligarchy (the enfeoffed nobility) have the right to oversee and intervene. (And the non-enfeoffed ones have sufficient visibility to earn their way into that by use of patronage and obeissance, which while not strictly feudal, mirrors it.
EG:
The FT as described looks to be functionally a civil service bureaucracy that has an oligarchy at the top, whose technical service is Human Resources (for upper management level positions) and Propaganda, as well as long term stability.
As to "how is a FT different than an autocracy?"
Let's see the table (reformatted, but text unchanged from it's appearance in Starter):
| Digit | Title | Description |
| 0 | No government structure. | In many cases, family bonds predominate. |
| 1 | CompanyiCorporation. | Government by a company managerial elite; citizens are company employees. |
| 2 | Participating Democracy. | Government by advice and consent of the citizen. |
| 3 | Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy. | Government by a restricted minority, with little or no input from the masses. |
| 4 | Representative Democracy. | Government by elected representatives. |
| 5 | Feudal Technocracy. | Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial. |
| 6 | Captive Government. | Government by a leadership answerable to an outside group; a co!ony or conquered area. |
| 7 | Balkanization. | No central ruling authority exists; rival governments compete for control. |
| 8 | Civil Service Bureaucracy. | Government by agencies employing individuals selected for their expertise. |
| 9 | Impersonal Bureaucracy. | Government by agencies which are insulated from the governed. |
| A | Charismatic Dictator. | Government by a single leader enjoying the confidence of the citizens. |
| B | Non-Charismatic Leader. | A previous charismatic dictator has been replaced by a leader through normal channels. |
| C | Charismatic Oligarchy. | Government by a select group, organization, or class enjoying the overwhelming confidence of the citizenry. |
| D | Religious Dictatorship. | Government by a religious organization without regard to the needs of the citizenry. |
Fundamentally? It's the low-pop version...
The government is low enough that the people can be picked for their established skill.
On the Imperial level, that's not quite true.
But note that the other single-ruler autocracies are all minimum pop 4 or higher, while an FT can be generated on a pop of 0-A...
So, being in the middle, it also tends to be a lower law level. Which implies some level of confidence by the governed.
In the case of Aramis - the people there apparently have the right to leave; I suspect HE Leonard would likely offer popsicle passage to anyone unwilling to work and unable to afford to leave, simply because those are the types most likely to become criminals... and it's a "throw some money at it and make it go away" solution to a major social problem.
In practice Aramis (and the 3I) are civil service bureaucracies tied to a semi-feudal oligarchy (the nobles), a portion of which said oligarchy (the enfeoffed nobility) have the right to oversee and intervene. (And the non-enfeoffed ones have sufficient visibility to earn their way into that by use of patronage and obeissance, which while not strictly feudal, mirrors it.
EG:
Guy Richman owns a 7-ship line. He built it from the ground up with a few lucky cargo runs and a lot of hard work, and now is expanding to formal liners. The local baron of his HQ's homeworld puts him forward for a domain knighting. The patronage is noted, the orders are given, and the baron, by let of the Archduke (and the patent therefrom) dubs him Sir Guy.
If he plays by the rules, does well, and makes a name for himself, the Archduke might subinfeudate him, or might nominate him to the Emperor.
If he gets stupid, he gets called before the Archduke, tied up for months in hearings and "special investigations" (some of him, and some unrelated to his business, like mine inspections, by him) while his company is quietly liquidated by covert actions thanks to the Archduke's stocks in various regional mini-megas (such as Oberlindes) and imperial-level megas (Nasiraaka, Sharushid, Hortalez etc), and influence with and authority over the Imperial Bureaucracy. Including IMoT, IMoJ, and the SPA.
See, if the Subsector nobles notice Guy being a jerk, or being too aggressive in his price competition, suddenly, they all approach their Megacorporate agencies, and suggest doing something about him. Meanwhile, they also hit the SPA and IMoJ, and tie him up with slowdowns and inspections that are legal but uncommon... except for him. Fief-worlds simply don't allow him entry to their space. (The SPA doesn't have the authority to clear people to land when their ship's been ordered away by local coacc and/or system navy.) And certain businesses simply slow down his order processing by a day (as in, that "3-5 days" listed is always 5 for him, even tho' it normally runs 3 for everyone else...).
As the hassles build, and the "special duties" accrue, Sir Guy either agrees to change, or goes bankrupt... in the latter case, he might find a place in someone's court as a hanger-on - the Count's Mother's consort, or the Baron's Voice Herald... Or might get stupider still, and brake a law in response to the pressure, and get himself brought up on charges by the Subsector courts. Even specious charges can ruin him.
If he plays by the rules, does well, and makes a name for himself, the Archduke might subinfeudate him, or might nominate him to the Emperor.
If he gets stupid, he gets called before the Archduke, tied up for months in hearings and "special investigations" (some of him, and some unrelated to his business, like mine inspections, by him) while his company is quietly liquidated by covert actions thanks to the Archduke's stocks in various regional mini-megas (such as Oberlindes) and imperial-level megas (Nasiraaka, Sharushid, Hortalez etc), and influence with and authority over the Imperial Bureaucracy. Including IMoT, IMoJ, and the SPA.
See, if the Subsector nobles notice Guy being a jerk, or being too aggressive in his price competition, suddenly, they all approach their Megacorporate agencies, and suggest doing something about him. Meanwhile, they also hit the SPA and IMoJ, and tie him up with slowdowns and inspections that are legal but uncommon... except for him. Fief-worlds simply don't allow him entry to their space. (The SPA doesn't have the authority to clear people to land when their ship's been ordered away by local coacc and/or system navy.) And certain businesses simply slow down his order processing by a day (as in, that "3-5 days" listed is always 5 for him, even tho' it normally runs 3 for everyone else...).
As the hassles build, and the "special duties" accrue, Sir Guy either agrees to change, or goes bankrupt... in the latter case, he might find a place in someone's court as a hanger-on - the Count's Mother's consort, or the Baron's Voice Herald... Or might get stupider still, and brake a law in response to the pressure, and get himself brought up on charges by the Subsector courts. Even specious charges can ruin him.
The FT as described looks to be functionally a civil service bureaucracy that has an oligarchy at the top, whose technical service is Human Resources (for upper management level positions) and Propaganda, as well as long term stability.
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