CT Only: What One Thing Would You Change About Classic Traveller?

[Spinward Flow]

You're also dealing with the fact that CT was authored at a time when containerization and global shipping was just getting started. There was a transition in global trading patterns and the Toyota styled "just in time" inventory supply chain and assembly lines creating lean manufacturing at higher efficiencies (until Tesla came in and upended everything with their die cast construction techniques and production cell structure) right around the late 70s early 80s. It would be unfair to assume that Marc or anyone else working on CT would have been thoroughly steeped in the complexities of international trade economics at that time (when stagflation was A Thing™).

Given the fact that CT uses as its founding context the economics of "middle America" in the mid to late 70s, it's no wonder that the initial simplified concepts don't pan out all that well when put to the rigorous (or as rigorous as gamers are wont to do) test of "playing the system" and then searching for way to "break it" in their favor (as all gamers are prone to attempt, sooner or later).

 

[whartung]

Well, even today, tramp freighters aren't containerized. Loading bundles and boxes of "unknown" merchandise is alway more interesting.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Well, even today, tramp freighters aren't containerized. Loading bundles and boxes of "unknown" merchandise is alway more interesting.

If operating an interstellar freighter looked like operating a current-day container ship, the "role-playing adventure" opportunities would be somewhat limited. Things were less systematized back in the '70s (and especially before then, in the era of the fiction that served as the model for Traveller was written).

And yes, tramp freighters haul cargo in break-bulk form, probably mixed in with containerized cargo (but not necessarily using dedicated container racks).

 

[Grav_Moped]

You're also dealing with the fact that CT was authored at a time when containerization and global shipping was just getting started.

Given the fact that CT uses as its founding context the economics of "middle America" in the mid to late 70s, it's no wonder that the initial simplified concepts don't pan out all that well when put to the rigorous (or as rigorous as gamers are wont to do) test of "playing the system" and then searching for way to "break it" in their favor (as all gamers are ⌧e to attempt, sooner or later).

And this comes down in part to trying to graft 40 years of logistics advances onto a gaming system that hadn't envisioned them. (That and the gaming system being scoped for characters at the entry level of the tramp-freighter market, since that's all that was necessary at the time.)

Plausibly modeling interstellar trade flows on the scale of a subsector or more is not a simple task. Working backwards from such a model to figure out the small stuff at the edges (which is where player characters operate, mostly) isn't, either. But it's almost necessary to start with the overall picture to be able to model (set up rules for) the intermediate zone just above tramp freighters that player characters might hope to advance into.

And all of this is complicated by the fact that the trade rules as written were only loosely informed by the capital and operating costs of starships built under the starship construction rules... It worked for the Type A* and almost worked for the Type R**, and that'll keep a campaign going for a couple of years -- what more did you need in the late 1970s/early 1980s?



* But would it work without the standard-hull discount?
** Not just the standard-hull discount here, but also the subsidy mechanic. Strip the design down to a hull, drives, and crew quarters and it might work without either of those (I could do the math, I suppose).

 

[Blue Ghost]

Concerning trade; my sense was that the rules envisioned classic era Earth trade in the Mediterranean, where merchants could pick an assortment of cargos, and then sell them at the next port. And that those rules, again, were written with more of a proto-Traveller universe in mind, and maybe not so much with the full fleshed out OTU.

 

[whartung]

If operating an interstellar freighter looked like operating a current-day container ship, the "role-playing adventure" opportunities would be somewhat limited.

Eh, I disagree.

I mean, at the basic level, 1K/ton cargo is faceless blocks of goods. It doesn't have to be any more than that. At the same time, there's nothing to stop someone calling up to the bridge "Captain, it's Wallace, down in the hold. There's something pounding on the inside of the Container 45342-B. And the one next to it is leaking something green."

 

[Grav_Moped]

Concerning trade; my sense was that the rules envisioned classic era Earth trade in the Mediterranean, where merchants could pick an assortment of cargos, and then sell them at the next port. And that those rules, again, were written with more of a proto-Traveller universe in mind, and maybe not so much with the full fleshed out OTU.

This. It's not only the absence of a fully-developed OTU, but also that the rules were for a Small Ship Universe. Rules as written, 5000Td was the upper limit. House-rule the possibility of larger hulls, extrapolate from the table, and you might reach 12,000Td but that's pretty much it. There's no consistent pattern for Drives W-Z so extrapolating larger drives than that would be pure guesswork (and, RAW, require TL-16+).

If my math is right (and it probably is), 5000Td is about the size of a modern large container ship (~221,000 gross register tons). The largest crude carriers are almost twice that size (in gross register tons, which don't scale linearly but it's a ballpark figure).

Edit: checked my math -- it's at least in the ballpark.

 

[Condottiere]

In terms of efficiency, you're going to have containerization in the Far Flung Future.

I'm pretty sure no one wants unbundled goods piling up on the dockside, where fees probably would be at a premium.

 

[Grav_Moped]

In terms of efficiency, you're going to have containerization in the Far Flung Future.

I'm pretty sure no one wants unbundled goods piling up on the dockside, where fees probably would be at a premium.

Depends on local TL and extent of off-world (or on-world) trade.

That said, it's an idea rather than a technology; it'd happen everywhere when materials technology supports suitable modular containers, or where there's enough trade to make importing standard containers worth the effort.
Pallets and barrels are containers in an early form.

 

[infojunky]

Pallets and barrels are containers in an early form.

Note, there is a lot of break bulk cargo still happening in the world. It just in places we in the western world doesn’t notice much. Example the Dows trading in the Indian and Mediterranean oceans. The Island hoppers in South East Asia and the South Pacific. Not to mention the Caribbean. All of these are largely shipping break bulk as many of the ports can’t handle containers.

 

[Blue Ghost]

This. It's not only the absence of a fully-developed OTU, but also that the rules were for a Small Ship Universe. Rules as written, 5000Td was the upper limit. House-rule the possibility of larger hulls, extrapolate from the table, and you might reach 12,000Td but that's pretty much it. There's no consistent pattern for Drives W-Z so extrapolating larger drives than that would be pure guesswork (and, RAW, require TL-16+).

If my math is right (and it probably is), 5000Td is about the size of a modern large container ship (~221,000 gross register tons). The largest crude carriers are almost twice that size (in gross register tons, which don't scale linearly but it's a ballpark figure).

Edit: checked my math -- it's at least in the ballpark.

Thanks

I also think those rules and guidelines were written with more of a sense of adventure in mind; i.e. pile your friends and gear into a ship and go!

 

[Spinward Flow]

All of these are largely shipping break bulk as many of the ports can’t handle containers.

So a type D seaport is ill equipped to handle containerization ...?
Or is it merely a result of the fact that the volume of trade isn't high enough to merit a switchover to containerization for "everything" being shipped (or at least, not a majority of the shipping)?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Thanks

I also think those rules and guidelines were written with more of a sense of adventure in mind; i.e. pile your friends and gear into a ship and go!

That's my guess. Though this example slightly post-dates LBB2 '77, you don't see Han Solo fretting about how much the Millennium Falcon earns per ton of cargo. Or Chewbacca's salary or the cost of whatever form of fuel is used in that universe, for that matter. That's because it doesn't matter to the plot!

 

[Grav_Moped]

So a type D seaport is ill equipped to handle containerization ...?
Or is it merely a result of the fact that the volume of trade isn't high enough to merit a switchover to containerization for "everything" being shipped (or at least, not a majority of the shipping)?

Consider the necessary infrastructure:
- Dedicated cranes (you might be able to use a conventional crane with an adapter, but it'd be a LOT slower and riskier).
- Container chassis trailers (flatbed trailers can be used if necessary) and lots of them
- Storage yards with traversing container lifts and/or 25-ton container-lift trucks
- Railcars with container racks

And for seaports (as in your example), if a container ship can't get into the harbor because the channel is too shallow, how do you offload the containers? Remember the Ever Given Suez Canal incident, and that they couldn't lighten the ship because there wasn't any way to remove containers from the deck. This isn't an exact parallel if you're offloading in orbit, of course.

 

[infojunky]

So a type D seaport is ill equipped to handle containerization ...?
Or is it merely a result of the fact that the volume of trade isn't high enough to merit a switchover to containerization for "everything" being shipped (or at least, not a majority of the shipping)?

I know of place that would considered Class Ports that can’t handle them. And yes it is the cost of the infrastructure that is the issue. Note there are lot places that could get containers as the ferries that serve them can carry trucks that can move them, a version of LASH operations.

 

[kilemall]

In terms of efficiency, you're going to have containerization in the Far Flung Future.

I'm pretty sure no one wants unbundled goods piling up on the dockside, where fees probably would be at a premium.

That’s what the 5-ton and 10-ton shipments are… IMTU..

 

[Blue Ghost]

That's my guess. Though this example slightly post-dates LBB2 '77, you don't see Han Solo fretting about how much the Millennium Falcon earns per ton of cargo. Or Chewbacca's salary or the cost of whatever form of fuel is used in that universe, for that matter. That's because it doesn't matter to the plot!

Star Wars' added a much needed energy to the genre as a whole. And the whole "get in your spaceship and go!" motif is what a lot of people of all walks of life had been craving.

So, when Traveller came around, it added that tactile ability to interact with your environment via paper, pencil and dice. To me, getting all philosophical here, it, the game, has more of a sense of classic Greek myth or 16th to 17th century sea adventure feel to it. And I think the rules were written in that spirit.

That's the game that my friends and I enjoyed from our pre-teen to post-grad years. Whether there's a massive trade network going on like our own 21st century Earth I think is up to individual player groups. YTUMV kind of thing.

I'm not too invested in the game anymore, though it's fun to talk about, but I think stuff in a hypothetical "real" Traveller Universe is probably imported on a need basis. Some far flung barren world probably has some automated network that has robots mining for water and oxygen on local bodies, but that shipments of the stuff also probably come in regularly. And that things like good, electronics, whatever it is, also come regularly and also as needed. It depends on how important and self sustaining the place is.

Again, in a proto-Traveller Universe you're kind of visiting the interstellar equivalent of City-States; i.e. Athens, Sparta, Cairo, Rome, whatever and whoever else was around in the classic era. And you have a variety of spices, wine, grains, and what not, to sell to the local merchants who will pretend to feel insulted as they barter for your wares

"Fifteen hundred dracmas ... er, credits for a case of Proximan wine? I'll pretend I didn't hear that! Seven-hundred credits! That's my final offer!"

 

[mike wightman]

Container shipping, well its 57th century equivalent, is what the megacorporations and merchant lines do between worlds that are on the major trade routes/xboat network.

They are background fluff.

All we know about in detail are the scraps available to a free trader calling at a world - the trade rules as written.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Not by choice, but today I'm more aware of containerization then last Christmas.

2. Having done swap meets, I'm aware of how much stuff you can pack onboard a pickup, and the desperate need not to repeat the process, in its entirety, at the end of the day.

3. Having loaded a moving van, unprofessionally, quite aware the point is to try and ensure non breakage until destination, and some form of coherent organized arrangement.

4. Having had to semi professionally assist in loading lorries, with pallet jacks, positioning the crates and pallets of assorted goods, row by row, and tying them down.

5. I'd say that if you're dealing with the equivalent of a cargo hold of a forty foot container, say eight tonnish, and access to an exterior ramp is close by, you can easily wheel in via pallet jack cargo within a reasonable period of time.

6. After that, you'll probably need more crew or cargo drones.

7. Presumably, delivery was Free On Board.

 

[whartung]

1. Not by choice, but today I'm more aware of containerization then last Christmas.

Aren't we all.

2. Having done swap meets, I'm aware of how much stuff you can pack onboard a pickup, and the desperate need not to repeat the process, in its entirety, at the end of the day.

Just as a point of reference.

Given a pile 3m high, the 82 tons of a Free Trader a roughly 20x20x3m pile of stuff. Basically 7 tractor trailers full of goods.

In terms of containers, a Free Trader is 35 containers. A small container ship is 3000 containers.

I would say that the Amazon warehouse near me easily has 30 bays for trucks, and probably twice as many trailers parked there.

Basically 13 Free Traders just hanging about on the dock.

Its good to look at these things in terms that we can almost (almost) comprehend. I'm still not really able to grasp that vast volume of stuff that comes in to our ports every day.

Port of Los Angeles has a volume of 9.2M TEU (container units). 1 full size semi truck hold roughly 5 TEU in terms of raw volume. Thats over 5000 trucks a day (which seems high). 720 Free Traders per day (!!). With a 5,000 ton cargo ship (roughly 3500 tons cargo space), thats 17 per day.

Worldwide (top 50 ports), it's about 1000 5K cargo ships a day.

A busy small ship universe to be sure, but not an untoward one.