What Tech Level

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Isn't the problem with smart phones that they need a large amount of infrastructure, in terms of cell towers and other land based equipment, whereas stuff like Star Trek comms units can operate anywhere in somewhat near vicinity to the receiving unit. Even modern satellite phones still require a constellation of satellites around whatever planet they are on.

As such, to me it still seems that stuff like a Star Trek comms unit is still a fair bit off in terms of TL for us.

 

[Murphy]

Does CT even have rules for creating devices not described in the books? I won't argue that it places many devices at higher TLs than is reasonable. I'm just saying that typical devices the PCs might own are no less capable than modern smartphones.

A smartphone is basically a mix of short range comm, hand comp and electronic photo/video camera, all packed into 100 grams of weight. GPS functionality? With a comm receiver and computing power, it's quite possible, you just need the necessary software. And all of these, while not TL7-8 as they should be, are still lower TL than Imperial average (TL12).

 

[aramis]

Hi,

Isn't the problem with smart phones that they need a large amount of infrastructure, in terms of cell towers and other land based equipment, whereas stuff like Star Trek comms units can operate anywhere in somewhat near vicinity to the receiving unit. Even modern satellite phones still require a constellation of satellites around whatever planet they are on.

As such, to me it still seems that stuff like a Star Trek comms unit is still a fair bit off in terms of TL for us.

Likewise, local comm grids likely will use something similar to cellular... but cellular requires log-ins and identity verification, usually tied to billing data and either pre-paid or non-tramp accounts.

So, don't expect to just hook up to the local comm grids upon arrival. Expect to need a log-in... and to be charged for it. (Albeit, IMTU, most ships get port-city local call access by being docked as part of their berthing fees.)

 

[BytePro]

IMTU, for systems part of normal interstellar trade (i.e. Imperial in the OTU sense), communications infrastructure is akin to (non-toll) roads - i.e. no 'logging in' nor separate fees - comms are a public service.*

More significantly, Satphones & terrestrial Tesla style transmission, of data & power, are the defacto norms.

Satphones and cell phones existed when I began playing in the early '80s - but cell phones weren't ubiquitous like today (geosync Satphones might have even been more prevalent - LEO didn't exist yet, TMK) and Satphones still have the advantage of being truly global and, from a space faring point of view, are a much less costly and more likely infrastructure investment... and very much more Sci-Fi-ish.


* Credits, governments and MTU...
Never been interested in playing 'Accountants in Space' myself - and since traditional taxation is a PITA in RL, I'm certainly not introducing it in my gaming... Of course, leaning more to sci-fi than fantasy, I had to come up with some 'economy' related to running governments. So, IMTU, 'taxes' are 'virtual'.

Electronic transactions - i.e. the 'moving' of wealth - determines how many credits the government is 'issued' to put back into the economy for public goods and services (and they determine such). Which means the ridiculously huge portion of currency, not to mention time, involved in RW taxation is completely avoided (not to mention its typical detriments to economic growth). Better economy = more government credits = more credits to support infrastructure needed for commerce and essential services needed to support the well being of consumers. Since this naturally 'dilutes' the value of the currency, the percentage of 'issued' credits naturally reduces to support a growing economy (rather than cut its own throat).

So taxes aren't taken directly from transactions - it is the moving of virtual credits that determines the credits created to government use. How much is determined by the government - which can make or break the economy that supports it. And the nature based on types of transactions (inter/intra system funds, funds between consumers and corps, loans, etc.). Given this, banks are not private, for profit entities, per se, but rather government run agencies, IMTU. Hence, the low fixed rates for starship loans, and the willingness to give them to a bunch of adventurers - and the ability to pay mortgages across interstellar systems (and be hunted by authorities). :devil:

 

[Fritz_Brown]

But, are you talking about Imperial taxation, or individual worlds? What you posit might work for Imperial taxation, but each world is going to tax differently, based on TL, Government type, economic base, etc.

As far as the comms go, some places might have a world-wide communications system that is a public service, but many others will not. Also, the infrastructure for a cell phone system [in a lower TL situation] is a lot easier to build than sat-phones - unless you assume enough money (and knowledge) to contract with an offworld entity to put your satellites up. (Sat phones certainly do work better in someplace with *no* infrastructure, though.)

(Personally, I would invest in a few small communications satellites as an adventurer - if I were going to places without reliable communications - and place them in appropriate orbits before landing. Then I could have my own totally secure comm network. And, I could route it back to the ship to make those free local calls Aramis mentioned.)

 

[BytePro]

Noting that IMTU means In My Traveller Universe - i.e. not the OTU -and, as explicitly stated, I am only sharing what I do IMTU.

Indeed, local taxation of local currency does exist (but is rare given the benefits of the Imperial system) - however, for systems which are part of the Imperium and trade in 'Imperial' CR, it is required that they abide by the Imperial rules - to wit, CR are never taxed.

Since this is MTU the idea that many world-wide comm systems would not be a public service is wrong. Global and system comm networks are associated with Imperial starports, along with stellar and planetary 'weather' reporting. They are always 'public' to the interstellar community, though that does not mean the local populace necessarily is allowed access by the local government nor that comm devices are legal outside a starbase or other Imperial territory.

BTW, in the RW, there are several countries where Satphones are illegal (or there used to be). Also, RW, a Satphone can be tracked (doppler), but not as precisely as a cell phone user. IMTU I presume a (true) GPS type tracking system where the Satphone tells the network where it is very precisely. This has an advantage that it can be tampered with at the handset (i.e. without hacking the network).

As to lower TLs, obviously if they lack space faring ability and access to such, they do not have Satphones - and also, by definition of not having access, are not be part of the trade system IMTU. In CT hand calculators come at TL7 the same as non-starships, so cell phones are arguably at the same TL anyway.

It has been standard IMTU for starships to have a 'global comm package' which consists of several dozen micro-sats (for LEO) and handheld comms (my term from the '80s, today they are probably called nanosats) for ship to party communications and GPS.

Mostly these exist in my game for metagame reasons - so the party can 'stay connected' and not be bothered with taxes (except when I desire them not to be :devil. These aspects of MTU date back to circa '83 shortly after the downed KAL incident when Ronald Reagan committed the U.S. to providing GPS to the public - and Satphones were already commonly in use by international shipping. (Since my dad worked at both a shipyard and NASA in years prior, I was quite aware of these tech options.)

 

[BytePro]

Ah, to address the OP more directly...

...
What is your favourite tech level in which to set your games and adventures ... and why?

Higher TLs for PC gear and for interaction with officialdom - much lower TL worlds for non-Imperium or interdicted world adventures.

I play TLs as an abstraction representing local social and manufacturing level, by using (absolute) TL difference x2 as a tech DM against initial use, obtaining, and repair - not as a definitive TL limit.

 

[robject]

Does CT even have rules for creating devices not described in the books? I won't argue that it places many devices at higher TLs than is reasonable. I'm just saying that typical devices the PCs might own are no less capable than modern smartphones.

A smartphone is basically a mix of short range comm, hand comp and electronic photo/video camera, all packed into 100 grams of weight. GPS functionality? With a comm receiver and computing power, it's quite possible, you just need the necessary software. And all of these, while not TL7-8 as they should be, are still lower TL than Imperial average (TL12).

Within reason, CT doesn't need rules for creating equipment. According to an early JTAS, new equipment is just a matter of interpolating existing stuff. Loren derives a laser pistol using this method.

 

[BytePro]

Yeah, never had any problem creating new stuff. From pocket nukes to robots - the framework for using them is all there with the existing gear, weapons and chargen. (I didn't see Bk 8 till the reprints - and didn't care for its robot 'design' system...)

Take HG - it was readily extensible by merely imitating the format (to support libraries, workshops, etc.). It could also be used to handle space stations, if one didn't want to just make something up.

CT's closer to the metal approach tended to encourage such, I suppose. Its like task checks without a 'universal mechanic' - most of the work was left to the Ref, which had a benefit in forcing a good understanding of the dice as well as a comfort level to 'winging' it.

 

[Dragoner]

Just steal it from another game/rl and throw an 8+ dr on it. I found that players either "get it" quickly and will fool with it on their own after 5 minutes explaination, or they don't care and an hour monologue on "how stuff works" just bores them.

 

[atpollard]

Simple, straightforward question.
What is your favourite tech level in which to set your games and adventures ... and why?

I tend to play TL 9-12 (I like frontiers), but deep down I have a fascination with a TL4 asteroid belt culture ... Jules Verne in space.

 

[BytePro]

No reason one couldn't do the 'stream punk' Jules Verne thing - the TL is really a metagame thing to deal with equipment. The principles of filtering air, turning a wheel, etc. are what is important - not so much the methods. And, for better or worse, CT TLs, at least, don't really separate and treat these two separate concepts well.

One does see different trade-offs in terms of economy of space/time/resources - ex: without microcircuits, a calculating machine may need to be very large (but then very complex computations can be done with things like light passing through a holographic plate (multidimensional processing vs linear, simplex systems) and fluidic systems can process in analog vs digital fashion, trading computational power against hydro speeds (ala CISC vs RISC). And, don't forget, steam is still valid method of converting energy from thermal and radiation sources into electric energy to convert into mechanic, thermal or optical energy... and spinning flywheels can act as energy stores ala batteries and capacitors.

TL is rather poorly defined and used. Mostly it is used for specific tech - like J-2, radio or gravitics. This is the reason I really don't take strong issue to, say, populated vacuum worlds with low TL. TL does not actually address alternate, but equivalent forms of tech (well, not consistently) - i.e. gravitics is but one method of manuevering in space. Radio is but one method of rapid communication over space (light works even faster with more data density). Etc.

 

[madmike]

All this talk of low tech level societies living in space reminds me of a short story I read long ago (in the 1980's) about aliens attempting an invasion of earth and quickly being defeated, because the invaders were still using flintlock weapons and Napoleonic military tactics.

Their ships didn't even have plumbing and were mostly clockwork.

In the story, the scientific principle of faster-than-light travel was so simple that most races in the universe discover it very early and go exploring, sacrificing all other scientific research, and humans simply missed out on the discovery somehow.

By the end of the story, the captured alien invaders realize that they had just given space travel ability to the most advanced race in the universe in terms of science and weaponry, and ask in terror, "What have we done?

 

[Dragoner]

I remember that as well, Poul Anderson maybe?

 

[madmike]

Could be, or Keith Laumer

 

[Timerover51]

That sounds more like something that Christopher Anvil would have written. He had a fair number of stories like that.

 

[PhilB]

Anyone got a possible title for it? Or is it worth posting to rec.arts.sf.written...?

 

[Ishmael]

"Pandora's Planet" by Christopher Anvil is the one that I remember.

 

[HG_B]

All this talk of low tech level societies living in space reminds me of a short story I read long ago (in the 1980's) about aliens attempting an invasion of earth and quickly being defeated, because the invaders were still using flintlock weapons and Napoleonic military tactics.

I also read that book in the 80's. Can't remember the title

 

[PhilB]

...
By the end of the story, the captured alien invaders realize that they had just given space travel ability to the most advanced race in the universe in terms of science and weaponry, and ask in terror, "What have we done?

Some googling suggests that this is Harry Turtledove's The Road Not Taken.