What to do about RU?

[Magnus von Thornwood]

On topic with a bullet!

It wouldn't happen mention how much large atmospheric processors that can change the atmosphere of a planet from say a 9 to an 8 cost, would it?

Pardon for the off topic question.

Your question is totally on topic! And a good one. See this is exactly the kind of thing I too was wondering about. Let us see...

Okay, about the closest we get is an Atmo Mod to Infrastructure improvement. Funny that, all that stuff and not one bit about terraforming.

Well, right now we have a supported (escorts & tenders) Azhanti High Lightning at RU 60 (BCS discussion, not official).

From T4: PE we have:

• Class D Starport at RU 1.2 & 2 years.
• Class C at RU 120 & 10 years.
• Class B at RU 600 & 20 years.
• Class A at RU 2400 & 30 years.

Same source for TL advancement we have:

• TL-4 to 5 is RU 1 & 40 years.
• ommitted.
• TL-7 to 8 is RU 20 & 20 years.
• TL-8 to 9 is RU 50 & 20 years.
• ommitted.
• TL-A to B is RU 200 & 100 years.
• TL-B to C is RU 2k & 200 years.
• ommitted.
• TL-E to F is RU 2M & 600 years.
• TL-F to G is RU 20M & 800 years.

So, based on those numbers, I figure a Cost RU 75 (you are subtracting, and not adding which is easier and cheaper) and a Duration of 50 years. Now this assumes a base TL-C to do it. A lower TL will increase Cost and Duration while a higher TL will decrease them.

Comments?

 

[rancke]

Well, I dragged out my T4: Pocket Empires and according to the chart in the back the cost to raise a Starport from Class D to Class C is RU 120 and 10 years. I had the Baron Bohen taking 12 years and RU 100 ro so (or RU 8/year).

Upon reflection and since raising the port from C to B cost RU 600 & 20 years, I think it should run around RU 300 and 15 years or so (or RU 20/year)^*. I figure most of the cost of going from Class C to to Class B is adding the Highport, so charging half that for a Class C gets a Class C with a Downport and a Highport and makes it cheaper in time and resources to upgrade later to Class B. They save about RU 20 for doing both at the same time and will get 5 to 10 years off the time needed to upgrade to Class B by having a Highport in place already.

Comments?

I've always felt that the cost of upgrading starports in PE were a) wildly exaggerated and b) not something a government would usually be paying for.

The difference between a Class B starport and a Class A starport, for example, is whether the civilian sector is building starships or just spaceboats. The starport itself would cost more or less the same. To upgrade a starport from B to A, all a government would have to do would be to order some starships from the local spaceboat industry. (Of course, if no one else buys starships there, the port will revert to Class B if the government stops buying starships ).

As for the cost of the buildings themselves, they should be comparable to the cost of a major airport. Googling 'airport construction cost' got me a figure of 5 billion US dollars for Denver International Airport. That's about half an RU. I don't know how big DIA is, but I should think it would make a pretty decent starport.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Yea! Hans is here.

Hey Hans,

Glad you decided to pop in and comment, especially since I just re-read the credits in my copy of T4: PE and spotted your name in the credits.

So, with your comment in mind do you think that RU 100 and 12 years is out of whack for a Class C with a Highport?

 

[rancke]

Hey Hans,

Glad you decided to pop in and comment, especially since I just re-read the credits in my copy of T4: PE and spotted your name in the credits.

Curiously enough, the main bit I contributed was the RU to credit calculation rule. Which professional economist Jim McLean once told me was rubbish (only he was more polite than that), but I can't remember just what was wrong with it.

So, with your comment in mind do you think that RU 100 and 12 years is out of whack for a Class C with a Highport?

I don't really know. I suspect it is, but I'd have to do some work to support that, and I'm not really in the mood. If I was, I think I would design a generic Class C starport using GT:Starports and get the approximate cost from that. I suspect that it wouldn't even amount to a single RU (assuming 1RU = 3 billion CrImp is in the ballpark). I mean, the space part would make it more expensive than an airport, but surface to air traffic is quite cheap at TL 9+. But perhaps it'd be several RUs.

IIRC Starports also gives construction times. It would depend on the size of the workforce, of course.


Hans

 

[Frewfrux]

From T4: PE we have: Class D Starport at RU 1.2 & 2 years.

Comments?

Is there any reason given for a class D starport taking 2 years? Is that the time needed to clear the area, pave it over, and hook up a pump to a nearby ocean/sea/lake?

That all sounds like something that could be done in a month, unless you include geological surveys in the number (make sure we don't build over a sinkhole), but even then more than 6 months would be pushing it. Unless, of course, you ARE wanting to build over a sinkhole....

 

[Drakon]

Terraforming and RUs

Your question is totally on topic! And a good one. See this is exactly the kind of thing I too was wondering about. Let us see...

Okay, about the closest we get is an Atmo Mod to Infrastructure improvement. Funny that, all that stuff and not one bit about terraforming.

Well, right now we have a supported (escorts & tenders) Azhanti High Lightning at RU 60 (BCS discussion, not official).

From T4: PE we have:

• Class D Starport at RU 1.2 & 2 years.
• Class C at RU 120 & 10 years.
• Class B at RU 600 & 20 years.
• Class A at RU 2400 & 30 years.

Same source for TL advancement we have:

• TL-4 to 5 is RU 1 & 40 years.
• ommitted.
• TL-7 to 8 is RU 20 & 20 years.
• TL-8 to 9 is RU 50 & 20 years.
• ommitted.
• TL-A to B is RU 200 & 100 years.
• TL-B to C is RU 2k & 200 years.
• ommitted.
• TL-E to F is RU 2M & 600 years.
• TL-F to G is RU 20M & 800 years.

So, based on those numbers, I figure a Cost RU 75 (you are subtracting, and not adding which is easier and cheaper) and a Duration of 50 years. Now this assumes a base TL-C to do it. A lower TL will increase Cost and Duration while a higher TL will decrease them.

Comments?

1) Thank you very, very much.

2) Is Terraforming discussed in any Traveller rule set? It might be a worthwhile project, down the road, to figure out how much it costs to change any of the factors in the UPP.

a) Obviously each factor in the UPP would require a different strategy. To change population, hire ships to either bring people in or ship people. Changing hydrographics might need a different solution.

3) I am not completely sure how you arrived at your numbers, but it seems very reasonable. At 5 billion credit per RU, that comes out to about 325 billion credits. And cleaning a whole planet would take a long time, I am hoping we may be able to speed the process up. But that will require some more math and mapping.

4) Removing the taint of an atmosphere will yield byproducts. The taint can be broken down, or combined with other materials, to get it out of the atmosphere. it occurs to me that whatever the taint is, can be a product, to be sold or utilized elsewhere on planet, or even traded offworld.

In short, depending on the particulars, it may be possible recoup the costs.

5) Taking one particular system as an example, Lemish has Ex of (956+2). If my math is right, that means RU=540. (1.6 to 2.7 TCr). That has to sustain the entire population as well as the rest of the government. Over 50 years, it would be only 1.5 RU/anum. (plus interest)

 

[Original_Carl]

I was wondering what people (not other editions) thought RUs were both worth and used for. That is why I went with the examples and question I did.

So with that in mind, comments?

I thought of them as a simple indicator of the economic power of a given world, specifically for use in comparing and ranking worlds in a given Imperium.

RU tell me what a world is capable of, but in an abstract fashion. I think it would be very difficult to do a direct RU to Mcr exchange, as it would depend on the size of the economy of the entire Imperium. If you knew what that was, you could then use RU as a kind of indexer to tell you what size piece of the economic pie each mainworld controlled.

If you had a Gross Imperial Product number, you could divide it by the total number of populated worlds in the Imperium and then the RU would indicate how far above or below that number any given world fell.

As it stands, I think the RU calculation needs work or at least review. Efficiencies has a huge impact on what is otherwise a pretty good number. It's just a flux roll. Wouldn't it be better as a calculated number added to a flux roll?

 

[Original_Carl]

I've done a bunch of RU calculation lately and I'd like to solicit some ideas from the board about how to estimate economic output of a given world. I have RU values in the four domains I'm using as MTU ranging from about 4500 to -4500. That's a huge range and I'm having trouble deciding on how to judge the capabilities of a given system.

For example, how big a fleet of system defense craft can a world afford to produce and maintain? How many RU does it take to consider a given world well-defended? How many more RU for its influence to extend to the edge of the solar system?

I'd like to be able to say a world can produce N soldiers or ships or liquid metallic hydrogen factories or what ever. If I can get that, RU becomes a lot more useful.

Any idea how to approach that?

 

[tjoneslo]

I would start with all the negative RU worlds. These worlds are either collapsing (and everyone leaving), or are replying upon neighboring worlds to import the RU for supporting them. This will make an interesting map of RU producers to RU Consumers.

A simple sum of RUs across the domains would show if the economy is growing or collapsing. And you can do that across smaller cluster of worlds too. A world isn't doing a lot if all it's RU are being sent two parsecs over to support a world who's life support system is failing.

As others have said, the connection between RU and Cr is not well established.

I would then calculate (using GT:FT rules) the GWP (Gross world product) and the WTN (world trade number) for the top 10 most populated/high TL worlds and the top 10 highest RU worlds. Then use this to give an approximate number for the ratio of Mcr to RU across the whole domain.

 

[rancke]

I would then calculate (using GT:FT rules) the GWP (Gross world product) and the WTN (world trade number) for the top 10 most populated/high TL worlds and the top 10 highest RU worlds. Then use this to give an approximate number for the ratio of Mcr to RU across the whole domain.

You wouldn't use the TCS/Striker rules? The ones that use Traveller tech levels rather than GURPS tech levels?


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Do you all feel something like a rat in a maze looking for the cheese?:rofl:

WTF, how simple it would have been if T5 had been just a bit more helpful?

FFE game designers manual: How to hide the cheese.

 

[djwildstar]

I think it would be very difficult to do a direct RU to Mcr exchange, as it would depend on the size of the economy of the entire Imperium. [...] If you had a Gross Imperial Product number, you could divide it by the total number of populated worlds in the Imperium and then the RU would indicate how far above or below that number any given world fell.

Oddly enough, a long time ago on a computer system that is now far, far away from state of the art (let's put it this way - the program had to be fed in via JCL and JES2, and because it was so big I had to request that the job wait until 4096Kbytes of main memory was available). The job took 0.18 minutes of CPU time and 1.3 minutes elapsed time to run. ;-)

I was mainly interested in the Striker formulas for gross planetary product and planetary military expenditures and TCS figures for naval expenditures. However, as a side-effect, I have aggregate gross planetary product as well as Imperial tax revenues.

The analysis included 10,497 worlds. The aggregate gross planetary product is about 317 quadrillion local credits (MCr 317,425,396,400). Note that this is an aggregate local credits, so it is a less-than-useful figure. I unfortunately don't have the figure in Imperial credits, but I suspect that it would be somewhat less. The Imperial tax revenue figure is about 2 quadrillion Imperial credits (MCr 2,194,749,587).

Using TCS, the shipyards of the Imperium have an aggregate construction capacity of about 9.4 billion tons of shipping, with slightly more than half of that figure (5 billion tons) in Class A ports; the rest is in Class B ports.

Of course, you should take all of this with a planet-sized grain of salt - the underlying data files have quite a number of flaws, and neither Striker nor TCS were intended to be used this way.

 

[ken at sunrise]

Question about Main World RU.

I thought according to T5 (RU = R * L * I * E)

But! If E is negative then no matter how high the other numbers are then it would result in a negative RU correct?

Isn't that wrong?

 

[Drakon]

Question about Main World RU.

I thought according to T5 (RU = R * L * I * E)

But! If E is negative then no matter how high the other numbers are then it would result in a negative RU correct?

Isn't that wrong?

not exactly. If E is negative, then that gets multiplied in, and essentially means that goods and services are being imported to your system, because you are not producing enough to feed yourselves.

If E=0, then E=1, according to the rules. I don't have my book in front of me, or else I would give chapter and verse. If any factor is zero, then that factor =1.

EDIT: page 435 T5 BBB bottoms center column.

 

[ken at sunrise]

not exactly. If E is negative, then that gets multiplied in, and essentially means that goods and services are being imported to your system, because you are not producing enough to feed yourselves.

If E=0, then E=1, according to the rules. I don't have my book in front of me, or else I would give chapter and verse. If any factor is zero, then that factor =1.

So if they had off the charts Resources, Labor and Infrastructure if they were not good at it (Efficiency) they would import rather than export.

P.S. If they had off the charts RLI a minus 1 would be a HUGE swing.

 

[andycowley]

quoting directly from the BBB on page 428;

"In the RU formula, Efficiency at -1 or less turn the RUs
available negative: the Inefficiencies are so destructive as
to make the economy a net drain. Such barriers represent a
welfare state; cultural influences which do not value wealth,
even physical limitations."

 

[ken at sunrise]

Makes sense thank you again,

That's twice I owe you Andy.

 

[Dagrill]

Your question is totally on topic! And a good one. See this is exactly the kind of thing I too was wondering about. Let us see...

[*]TL-8 to 9 is RU 50 & 20 years.

So, based on those numbers, I figure a Cost RU 75 (you are subtracting, and not adding which is easier and cheaper) and a Duration of 50 years. Now this assumes a base TL-C to do it. A lower TL will increase Cost and Duration while a higher TL will decrease them.
Comments?

Thank, one I'm interested as well, now I have a world to play with, so 2.5 RU's per year is easily affordable and Mount can be TL9 by 1126.

Are you saying it would take RU 75 and 50 years to achieve a standard atmosphere, as that's totally affordable as well and we can have a nice clean atmosphere in 1156.

If we allocate 10% of the RU's to defence that gives 61.6, is the AHL 60 to buy, or upkeep?

Kind Regards

David

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Buy.

Thank, one I'm interested as well, now I have a world to play with, so 2.5 RU's per year is easily affordable and Mount can be TL9 by 1126.

Are you saying it would take RU 75 and 50 years to achieve a standard atmosphere, as that's totally affordable as well and we can have a nice clean atmosphere in 1156.

If we allocate 10% of the RU's to defence that gives 61.6, is the AHL 60 to buy, or upkeep?

Kind Regards

David

The RU 60 is purchase, not upkeep. I argued for it as a mere RU 6 for a 60 Kt cruiser seemed a bit too cheap to me.

Though upon reflection and having poked about some of the RU numbers in my Far Stars sector, perhaps it should be a smidge cheaper, more like RU 30. That gives a cost of around RU 0.5/10 Kt, which doesn't seem out of line to me.

 

[Drakon]

Thank, one I'm interested as well, now I have a world to play with, so 2.5 RU's per year is easily affordable and Mount can be TL9 by 1126.

Are you saying it would take RU 75 and 50 years to achieve a standard atmosphere, as that's totally affordable as well and we can have a nice clean atmosphere in 1156.

If we allocate 10% of the RU's to defence that gives 61.6, is the AHL 60 to buy, or upkeep?

Kind Regards

David

You could armortize the cost over the project lifetime.

Also, what with the troubles in 1116 and the oops around 1130, getting to 1156 is going to be harder than it looks.