What works? How are ships and vehicles armed?

[Enoki]

I wonder at the TL of gear. Someone still making TL-3 ships today would be making galleons. Someone making TL-3 weapons would be making muskets with plug bayonets.

I am also looking at https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Technology_Level#Technology_levels. If TL12 gear was new a thousand years ago, I don't really understand how they have failed to keep up. Why are so few people at TL15? If Upgrading to a higher TL isn't better somehow, why is it a higher TL?

Obviously I am confused, but this is off topic, so no answer is expected. My only real questions are how common is thousand-year-old gear? And is there new-made TL12 gear still coming out? I've been working just off TL15 stuff because it is so much better, and Armor 15 really changes the combat dynamic. In Mg1, TL12 armor is nearly as good as TL15 (as far as stopping those turreted weapon hits), but it's not a full quarter of the ship's tonnage, so it's really only TL14 and 15 ships that can make themselves nearly invulnerable on the lighter side. Still, 26% of your hull to shrug off most non-spinal hits doesn't sound bad.

Are there no polities with a US-like defense budget that are willing to shell out for a fleet of these TL15 battlewagons? They would rule the galaxy.

If I might.

Body armor starts at like TL 2, give or take. It improves from there, but it's still body armor. Modern ships still have cannon aboard that function fundamentally the same way as a TL 3 or 4 cannon would. Again, there are improvements, but the concept remains the same. So, it is likely that if some new weapon system came out at TL 12 what you are getting to TL 15 are incremental improvements over the original, not some major technological revolution.
A TL 1 bow and arrow works, but a TL 15 bow and arrow works better. Both are still bows using arrows.

Getting back to cannons... The first big improvement was the invention of better propellants than black powder. Next came improvements to the carriage and mount like controlling recoil. The breech mechanism allowed for higher rates of fire. Accuracy? That's far more a function of fire controls than the cannon itself. If the gun itself can drive a nail at 1000 meters every time, assuming it's aimed accurately, then it really becomes a matter of accurately aiming it. Without the means to do so, you never hit the nail except by sheer luck.

As for ship costs, that really comes down to what the governing entity's budget is. I don't think the 3I's overall GDP and government budget have ever been detailed in canon, or for that matter in any other form. Without knowing what they have to spend on ships--or whose budget ship building comes out of--we really don't know what they can or cannot build in terms of cost per vessel and how many can be manufactured. Manufacturing capacity would also play a role. I doubt there are many shipyards that can build some 100,000 ton+ monster ship.

For example, the RN had 52 pre-dreadnoughts but only built 35 dreadnoughts. The US Navy had by late WW 2 something like 25 fleet carriers in operation. Today, it's down to about a dozen at any given time. The idea here is that the bigger, more complex, and expensive a ship is to build the fewer you are going to have of it.

 

[Badenov]

If I might.

Body armor starts at like TL 2, give or take. It improves from there, but it's still body armor. Modern ships still have cannon aboard that function fundamentally the same way as a TL 3 or 4 cannon would. Again, there are improvements, but the concept remains the same. So, it is likely that if some new weapon system came out at TL 12 what you are getting to TL 15 are incremental improvements over the original, not some major technological revolution.
A TL 1 bow and arrow works, but a TL 15 bow and arrow works better. Both are still bows using arrows.

Getting back to cannons... The first big improvement was the invention of better propellants than black powder. Next came improvements to the carriage and mount like controlling recoil. The breech mechanism allowed for higher rates of fire. Accuracy? That's far more a function of fire controls than the cannon itself. If the gun itself can drive a nail at 1000 meters every time, assuming it's aimed accurately, then it really becomes a matter of accurately aiming it. Without the means to do so, you never hit the nail except by sheer luck.

As for ship costs, that really comes down to what the governing entity's budget is. I don't think the 3I's overall GDP and government budget have ever been detailed in canon, or for that matter in any other form. Without knowing what they have to spend on ships--or whose budget ship building comes out of--we really don't know what they can or cannot build in terms of cost per vessel and how many can be manufactured. Manufacturing capacity would also play a role. I doubt there are many shipyards that can build some 100,000 ton+ monster ship.

For example, the RN had 52 pre-dreadnoughts but only built 35 dreadnoughts. The US Navy had by late WW 2 something like 25 fleet carriers in operation. Today, it's down to about a dozen at any given time. The idea here is that the bigger, more complex, and expensive a ship is to build the fewer you are going to have of it.

So, a TL 2 body armor is not much like a TL7 body armor. The TL2 armor won't do much to a bullet but make the wound worse by adding junk inside. Modern body armor (which is maybe pushing TL8 in RL as it's improved dramatically compared to 1980) can stop some pretty serious bullets. As TL's progress, historically, things change a lot. A TL5 cannon isn't obsolete, but it underperforms in comparison to TL7 gear. And a TL5 tank is kind of garbage to a TL7 tank.

I actually calculated the Gross Subsector Product for 2 subsectors from https://wiki.travellerrpg.com by adding the GWPs of all the planets, which are buried at https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Glisten_Subsector/data/Milieu_1116. Glisten subsector had a GSP of about 182 million MCr (1.82 x10^14 Cr), District 268 was only about 47 million MCr. That said, a several hundred thousand megacredit Dreadnaught was very much chump change for a duke's budget and many subsectors have at least 1 TL15 shipyard. TL15 ships may not be standard in planetary navies, but I think it should be for Imperial forces.

And this doesn't begin to address the gear that is only avalable at a tech level. On page 25 of LBB5/1980 the Turret Weapons table shows missiles and lasers at TL7, But Fusion Guns aren't available until TL12, and particle Accelerator of any kind aren't avalable below TL14 (though they're available as bays at TL8, so I guess they just needed to wait on miniaturization.

 

[Enoki]

So, a TL 2 body armor is not much like a TL7 body armor. The TL2 armor won't do much to a bullet but make the wound worse by adding junk inside. Modern body armor (which is maybe pushing TL8 in RL as it's improved dramatically compared to 1980) can stop some pretty serious bullets. As TL's progress, historically, things change a lot. A TL5 cannon isn't obsolete, but it underperforms in comparison to TL7 gear. And a TL5 tank is kind of garbage to a TL7 tank.

You miss the point. At TL 2, it's designed to defeat TL 2 weapons. At TL 7 it's designed to defeat TL 7 weapons. Both are still just body armor. The TL 7 is better in some ways than the TL 2 but might not defeat TL 2 weapons as efficiently. For example, while modern body armor will stop bullets, it is poor at stopping something like an ice pick or a broadsword the later of which is as much a bludgeon as a cutting weapon, whereas TL 2 armor is heavily padded and designed with those sorts of attacks in mind.

I actually calculated the Gross Subsector Product for 2 subsectors from https://wiki.travellerrpg.com by adding the GWPs of all the planets, which are buried at https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Glisten_Subsector/data/Milieu_1116. Glisten subsector had a GSP of about 182 million MCr (1.82 x10^14 Cr), District 268 was only about 47 million MCr. That said, a several hundred thousand megacredit Dreadnaught was very much chump change for a duke's budget and many subsectors have at least 1 TL15 shipyard. TL15 ships may not be standard in planetary navies, but I think it should be for Imperial forces.

You have to consider not just the ship, but the cost of the crew, cost of fuel, food, etc., a place to 'dock' it, maintenance, etc. Big ships get very pricey when you start factoring that all in. Look at a modern US aircraft carrier. The ship runs about $12 to 15 billion. Running it costs several million a day when you factor everything in.

And this doesn't begin to address the gear that is only avalable at a tech level. On page 25 of LBB5/1980 the Turret Weapons table shows missiles and lasers at TL7, But Fusion Guns aren't available until TL12, and particle Accelerator of any kind aren't avalable below TL14 (though they're available as bays at TL8, so I guess they just needed to wait on miniaturization.

So? New stuff gets invented periodically. That doesn't mean the older lower tech is necessarily without further use. For example, missiles from the 1940's and 50's are very inefficient and far less capable than their current equivalents. The current ones are much better, but they are still just missiles using the same basic principles those designed 75 years ago did.

 

[Badenov]

You miss the point. At TL 2, it's designed to defeat TL 2 weapons. At TL 7 it's designed to defeat TL 7 weapons. Both are still just body armor. The TL 7 is better in some ways than the TL 2 but might not defeat TL 2 weapons as efficiently. For example, while modern body armor will stop bullets, it is poor at stopping something like an ice pick or a broadsword the later of which is as much a bludgeon as a cutting weapon, whereas TL 2 armor is heavily padded and designed with those sorts of attacks in mind.

So modern body armor is available with ice pick and knife protection, and not that expensively. www.safeguardclothing.com

You have to consider not just the ship, but the cost of the crew, cost of fuel, food, etc., a place to 'dock' it, maintenance, etc. Big ships get very pricey when you start factoring that all in. Look at a modern US aircraft carrier. The ship runs about $12 to 15 billion. Running it costs several million a day when you factor everything in.

This much is true, but if the GSP is enough to swallow the ship cost, the upkeep is going to be negligible. I haven't checked upkeep in HG/CT, but a 225,000MCr (designed in Mongoose, but Mg1 and HG80 both seem to balance around 1MCR/ton for warships, so I'm guessing they're about the same) dreadnaught requires (in Mg1) 30.4MCr/month upkeep, including salaries and life support/consumables and maintenance.

So? New stuff gets invented periodically. That doesn't mean the older lower tech is necessarily without further use. For example, missiles from the 1940's and 50's are very inefficient and far less capable than their current equivalents. The current ones are much better, but they are still just missiles using the same basic principles those designed 75 years ago did.

Yes, and we see how well those 40-year old missiles are working out for the people using them in current conflicts which I won't mention. On the other hand, the 1911 pistol is as deadly today as when it came out (as long as body armor's not involved). So, old gear sometimes is useful, sometimes not. I think if the tech has changed a lot, like with missiles, the low TL hurts it. For things that have not markedly improved, the TL is less of an issue.

 

[Rupert]

I wonder at the TL of gear. Someone still making TL-3 ships today would be making galleons. Someone making TL-3 weapons would be making muskets with plug bayonets.

I am also looking at https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Technology_Level#Technology_levels. If TL12 gear was new a thousand years ago, I don't really understand how they have failed to keep up. Why are so few people at TL15? If Upgrading to a higher TL isn't better somehow, why is it a higher TL?

Obviously I am confused, but this is off topic, so no answer is expected. My only real questions are how common is thousand-year-old gear? And is there new-made TL12 gear still coming out? I've been working just off TL15 stuff because it is so much better, and Armor 15 really changes the combat dynamic. In Mg1, TL12 armor is nearly as good as TL15 (as far as stopping those turreted weapon hits), but it's not a full quarter of the ship's tonnage, so it's really only TL14 and 15 ships that can make themselves nearly invulnerable on the lighter side. Still, 26% of your hull to shrug off most non-spinal hits doesn't sound bad.

Are there no polities with a US-like defense budget that are willing to shell out for a fleet of these TL15 battlewagons? They would rule the galaxy.

I would assume that moving up tech levels past TL-9 or so is hard and takes a lot of people, time, and money.

 

[Rupert]

So modern body armor is available with ice pick and knife protection, and not that expensively. www.safeguardclothing.com

This much is true, but if the GSP is enough to swallow the ship cost, the upkeep is going to be negligible. I haven't checked upkeep in HG/CT, but a 225,000MCr (designed in Mongoose, but Mg1 and HG80 both seem to balance around 1MCR/ton for warships, so I'm guessing they're about the same) dreadnaught requires (in Mg1) 30.4MCr/month upkeep, including salaries and life support/consumables and maintenance.

TCS' assumption was that upkeep in peacetime was 10% of a warship's price per annum. In wartime, double this, not counting repair costs, etc.

While both TCS and Striker had ways of determining military budgets, they weren't actually the same, and use different numbers for some things like exchange rates. Neither claim to describe the Imperial military budget, and depending on whether you use the population multiplier or not you'll get answers that differ by a factor of about five - the 'new' (i.e. with mutliplier) Imperium has a lot more money than the 'old'. Also, assumptions about Imperial taxes and other revenue streams seem to have changed over time - in the early days, the Imperium was short of cash, didn't seem to own much in the way of yard assets outside of Depots, and had a serious piracy problem. By MegaTraveller it had major sub-sector fleets, plus major 'colonial' sub-sector fleets, plus major standing sector fleets, and all that good stuff, with the Imperial fleets being TL15. Until the factions pissed it away shooting each other, anyway.

TNE also had guidelines for determining military budgets and capacities, but it was aimed at individual worlds' militaries post-Final War, so it's also no good for working out what the 3I's overall fleet assets would've been.

At the end of the day, I don't think you can really derive solid answers using any published rules, though you can work out semi-canon trade volumes using GT's trade rules, and from that make some guesses about money available from port taxes, etc., but you still have to make some choices about taxation, military spending vs nobles' conspicuous consumption/corruption, and all that.

I personally lean towards the Imperium having pretty limited income from quite light port levies, from dividends from the Imperial family's shares in the various megacorps.

 

[atpollard]

My only real questions are how common is thousand-year-old gear?

Can you still buy a HAMMER?
Have you any idea how old an Iron hammer with a wooden handle is? ... but nails have not changed so much that everyone needs a power nail gun with plastic staples (or construction epoxy).

Since most of this is TRANSPORTATION ... do Canoes and Row Boats still exist? How about wooden boats with sails? Why does everything not use a High Bypass Jet Turbine? (it is a better and more modern technology!)

 

[kilemall]

This is the exact answer I was looking for. I'm designing ships in Excel and it's super easy to start with the agility I want, calculate excess power needed based on the ship's tonnage, add the power used by the stuff I have installed, and add excess power needed and power used to get power required. I get a PP number with half a dozen decimal places, but I round for the USP just as you said.

Think of it as something like the CT extra power plant for double fire trick.

 

[mike wightman]

A lot of these comments are very disingenuous.

T5 does this in a sensible way, there is a TL where the tech maxes out, no further improvement can be made until you change reality at TL28.

Improvements in production methods, materials etc may well produce a cheaper hammer that is less likely to break - a bonded superdense hammer no doubt has its applications. But if all you want to do is hit a nail then any TL hammer will do, depending on the TL of course, a copper hammer striking a steel nail will drive it, but will damage the hammer in the process - is such detail necessary just to have a bigger peening hammer?

 

[Badenov]

I personally lean towards the Imperium having pretty limited income from quite light port levies, from dividends from the Imperial family's shares in the various megacorps.

That seems reasonable. However given the volume of trade, the dreadnaught is a super-tiny cost in coomparison to that, and if it takes several years to build, you can spread the purchase over that time as well. I -can- see owners being risk-averse with such an expensive toy, though, and since all attacks are tabulated before damage is applied, I'm sure there are plenty of cases of both sides defeated as spinal dreadnaught vs spinal dreadnaught is very luck-based.

Can you still buy a HAMMER?
Have you any idea how old an Iron hammer with a wooden handle is? ... but nails have not changed so much that everyone needs a power nail gun with plastic staples (or construction epoxy).

Since most of this is TRANSPORTATION ... do Canoes and Row Boats still exist? How about wooden boats with sails? Why does everything not use a High Bypass Jet Turbine? (it is a better and more modern technology!)

So, you can buy a new canoe that is not substantially different from a TL3 canoe in shape, but uses modern construction. You cannot buy a TL3 canoe today, unless you can find someone to make one for you, maybe in the Amazon jungle where there are lost tribes. My question should have been phrased as 'are TL12 ships currently in service 1000-year old antiques or more recently manufactured?' Mg1 says, 'Many ships serve for decades or even centuries before being scrapped,' and has a table of quirks that these old ships might have. You roll on that table for every 10 years of service. A 1000-year old ship would get 100 rolls and on average would be looking at -17 to all repair attempts, -14 on all sensor rolls, +700% maintenance costs, -11 structure, -8 to all pilot checks, and other quirks depending on its original role, and I think I have answered my own question, as an actual 1000-year old vessel is a not really usable. I have no idea if CT has a similar thing?

Now 'decades or even centuries' of service does not equate to a 1000-year old TL12 ship; it could, but I think that's very uncommon that PCs get old ships. It's strongly implied that normal PCs will get a new or new-ish ship with no quirks rather than a probably-not-spaceworthy old relic, which if it wasn't broken up for scrap is probably in a museum. I think a ship this old without the quirks was either immaculately maintained (possibly only driven by an old lady on Sundays) or sealed away in some sort of stasis, and in either case it would be a major plot point. It would be like a buying a car without cup holders. You can still buy manual windows and doorlocks (or could in 2014), but you can't buy no cupholders.

Think of it as something like the CT extra power plant for double fire trick.

I don't know that trick, but it's just a change to a formula to reserve twice the energy needed for a weapon if that's how it works.

A lot of these comments are very disingenuous.

T5 does this in a sensible way, there is a TL where the tech maxes out, no further improvement can be made until you change reality at TL28.

Improvements in production methods, materials etc may well produce a cheaper hammer that is less likely to break - a bonded superdense hammer no doubt has its applications. But if all you want to do is hit a nail then any TL hammer will do, depending on the TL of course, a copper hammer striking a steel nail will drive it, but will damage the hammer in the process - is such detail necessary just to have a bigger peening hammer?

This makes good sense, but the question is, where does the tech max out, and how good is 'good enough'? Some TL12 vessels may be newly manufactured, clearly that thousand-year old tech was good enough for someone.

 

[Spinward Flow]

My question should have been phrased as 'are TL12 ships currently in service 1000-year old antiques or more recently manufactured?'

There are (undoubtedly) 1000 year old antiques that have wound up as museum pieces/attractions, but I wouldn't expect them to remain in regular operational service for that long.

A 1000+ year old starship class design is a different story ... mainly one of "ain't broke, don't fix" as far as the blueprints go.
We have examples of the Viliani Free Trader and Type-S Scout/Courier which presumably date all the way back to the First Imperium (so multiple 1000s of years) which are still in use in the "modern" era(s) of Traveller, because they work. There may be plenty of "more high tech" starship designs available, but higher tech construction can become something of a double edged sword when it comes to being able to gets parts, spares and repairs in a variety of backwater regions (both inside and outside polity boundaries). Depending on the details, it can be more prudent to use lower technology construction methods with a wider industrial support base than reaching for highly bespoke high tech construction with as narrow an industrial supply base as possible.

 

[whartung]

Why does everything not use a High Bypass Jet Turbine? (it is a better and more modern technology!)

Because it's not efficient enough for whatever the task at hand is.

Gas Turbines on large container ships are, demonstrably, not worth it. I mean, I don't know, I don't design, or price out Gas Turbines.

But the large, ship board diesels that can run on the absolutely cheapest of fuel, and must also have similarly long, cheap maintenance cycles, dominate commercial shipping. With the advent of air travel, turns out having a 35 knot container ship isn't worth the money.

A 35 knot Guided Missile Cruiser is something completely different.

There have been efforts and experiments to try out large, commercial sailing vessels. But, they don't seem to have caught on much yet.

 

[Grav_Moped]

But if all you want to do is hit a nail then any TL hammer will do

Isn't the other tag line for Traveller, "Shotguns -- In Space!"?

(The first, of course, is "You can even die in character generation.")

 

[Condottiere]

If you do have a millenia old starship, while it may still be functioning, it may have accumulated any number of quirks.

 

[Enoki]

I would assume that moving up tech levels past TL-9 or so is hard and takes a lot of people, time, and money.

That definitely would be another part of it. To make say a current TL large plastic injection molded item takes a machine, new, that costs in the neighborhood of a quarter million dollars. You have to make that machine pay for itself, and you have to be able to make back the cost of running it and the materials used. That means you need a sufficient customer base to make it worth having one making something.

So, on a TL, say, 7 world with a few thousand people on it, there simply isn't the customer base to allow for purchasing higher technology locally. Maybe the locals chose that level because they can maintain everything at it locally. There is likely a smattering of higher technology present, but the bulk of what's there is around TL 7.

 

[Rupert]

There are (undoubtedly) 1000 year old antiques that have wound up as museum pieces/attractions, but I wouldn't expect them to remain in regular operational service for that long.

There will also be 1000 year old ships that have spent a lot of time in reserve or mothballed in ordinary. Every few centuries they get dragged out, refurbished, maybe get some new systems, and get used for something or another for a bit, and then stuffed back into ordinary to wait for the next war scare or budget squeeze.

 

[Grav_Moped]

...and then there are the oddball millenia-old alien derelicts, being researched by the top men. Top. Men.

(I.e., stuffed into a massive warehouse and promptly forgotten.)

 

[kilemall]

That definitely would be another part of it. To make say a current TL large plastic injection molded item takes a machine, new, that costs in the neighborhood of a quarter million dollars. You have to make that machine pay for itself, and you have to be able to make back the cost of running it and the materials used. That means you need a sufficient customer base to make it worth having one making something.

So, on a TL, say, 7 world with a few thousand people on it, there simply isn't the customer base to allow for purchasing higher technology locally. Maybe the locals chose that level because they can maintain everything at it locally. There is likely a smattering of higher technology present, but the bulk of what's there is around TL 7.

My take is Non-IND largely means no industrial base because of the dual lack of customers/lack of worker base to create it.

That’s not to say the planet doesn’t make items, but it will be more one off specialized or offworld financed/owned to exploit an opportunity.

So TL in this case is the value of the products the planet does export in order to buy x level of TL level lifestyle. Not always true in order to differentiate all our Oz planets, but good enough for the default entertainment ecobiome play.

 

[TamsinP]

"This ship is over 2000 years old. What's that? Are all the parts original? Of course not. The power plant has been replaced. And the manoeuvre and jump drives, the fuel purifier, the sensors, the fuel tanks, the computer, the navigation controls, the turrets and fire control. And we did a complete refit of the cargo and accommodation spaces 5 years ago. Oh, yes, well, most of the hull plates have been replaced too. But the ship is over 2000 years old..."

 

[whartung]

"This ship is over 2000 years old. What's that? Are all the parts original? Of course not.

"This is my favorite axe. I've replaced the head twice and the handle three times."