What works? How are ships and vehicles armed?

[Tobias]

How is that? In my notes, I have that TL14 armor takes up (Armor Value+1) percent of the hull volume. At TL15 (armor value being limited to TL), that's a very modest 16% of your ship, a small price to pay for immunity to anything smaller than a bay weapon. Did this figure not come from LBB2? (It's just noted as CT for me.)

That is LBB5. In LBB5 (81 variant), there is no functional difference between turret and bay weapons (they are all lumped into batteries); neither can really do anything vs. heavily armored hulls - nuclear missiles (marginally) and meson guns bays (quite useless in all other respects) excepted.

My previous comment was solely about LBB2, sorry if that was not clear.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Did this figure not come from LBB2?

LBB2.77 and LBB2.81 had NO armor rules for starships of any kind. Starships were also limited to 5000 tons maximum in specific increments (because, drive performance TABLE rather than formula).

Armor was introduced in LBB5.80, prompting a complete revamp of the ship to ship combat system in order to account for the inclusion of armor into things.

 

[whulorigan]

Classic Traveller:

LBB:2 three different weapons mounted in three different turrets (single, dual and triple mount)

The three different weapons are the laser, the missile and the sandcaster (actually defensive but make a great giant shotgun)
the laser comes in two types, a beam laser and a pulse laser that is -1 to hit but does twice the damage of the beam laser. Missiles that hit a target inflict 1d of damage

If you had access to Special Supplement 3: Missiles, you could design missiles with different warhead types that did different variable dice of damage based on warhead type.

 

[mike wightman]

They didn't do any damage dice in SS:3, instead you got a fixed number of hits depending on the size of the warhead (+extra hits from vector length)

 

[Badenov]

LBB2.77 and LBB2.81 had NO armor rules for starships of any kind. Starships were also limited to 5000 tons maximum in specific increments (because, drive performance TABLE rather than formula).

Armor was introduced in LBB5.80, prompting a complete revamp of the ship to ship combat system in order to account for the inclusion of armor into things.

So I don't even know what is normal or canon anymore. It seems like most of my answer will come from deciding that. The addition of armor seems like a huge change to the Traveller universe. Is it normal to run Traveller in a LBB2 vs LBB5/High Guard campaign, or does CT normally run with LBB5? Mg1 is all I know, and it has armor. Mg1-HG just adds 100T bays and hulls outside the main book limits of 100-2000T.

If you had access to Special Supplement 3: Missiles, you could design missiles with different warhead types that did different variable dice of damage based on warhead type.

That's another layer of complication that I don't have access to. What damage dice are they capable of? Does armor break them the way it makes most turret weapons pointless?

 

[whulorigan]

It does reflect the reality of modern combat, rather than the age-of-sail look and feel that it seems to otherwise want to emulate . . . .

The "Age-of-Sail" metaphor is to the governmental, communication, and command and control nature of the background setting due to the lack of interstellar FTL radio (and light-lag radio in-system). It is why there are Nobles (and other "gentlemen") empowered to act in the name of another as vice-regents, and why Ship Captains have broad discretionary powers to act, rather than call home to Central Command for authorization. "Age-of-Sail' is a descriptive analogy for how the background setting functions in practical terms, not necessarily about creating an artificial "look-and-feel", artwork in the Core MgT v1.0 rules notwithstanding.

It is a mistake to take the analogy too far and presuppose that the Age-of-Sail metaphor is trying to impose a "feel" or "look" on everything, so that everyone is wearing frock-coats and necessarily firing broad-sides in a line-of-battle.

 

[Badenov]

The "Age-of-Sail" metaphor is to the governmental, communication, and command and control nature of the background setting due to the lack of interstellar FTL radio (and light-lag radio in-system). It is why there are Nobles (and other "gentlemen") empowered to act in the name of another as vice-regents, and why Ship Captains have broad discretionary powers to act, rather than call home to Central Command for authorization. "Age-of-Sail' is a descriptive analogy for how the background setting functions in practical terms, not necessarily about creating an artificial "look-and-feel", artwork in the Core MgT v1.0 rules notwithstanding.

It is a mistake to take the analogy too far and presuppose that the Age-of-Sail metaphor is trying to impose a "feel" or "look" on everything, so that everyone is wearing frock-coats and necessarily firing broad-sides in a line-of-battle.

I wasn't thinking of the frock coats so much as the broadside-type volleys in the sense of lots of boom for not much effect and just something to keep the gunners busy until you can close and board, but now it looks like First shot = last shot.

 

[whulorigan]

So I don't even know what is normal or canon anymore. It seems like most of my answer will come from deciding that. The addition of armor seems like a huge change to the Traveller universe. Is it normal to run Traveller in a LBB2 vs LBB5/High Guard campaign, or does CT normally run with LBB5? Mg1 is all I know, and it has armor. Mg1-HG just adds 100T bays and hulls outside the main book limits of 100-2000T.

That is up to you. If you are running a campaign in the Charted Space OTU Setting, and you are going to encounter Naval vessels larger than minor escorts and auxiliaries (and the players are likely to get into potential combat) then LBB5: High Guard is your baseline. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter, as you will likely just be narrating any naval encounters, and private ship-to-ship combat can be handled with either, based on your preference.

I would focus less on the results of a poorly thought-out naval combat rules-mechanic and focus more on how the setting implies that things actually work in-universe, unless you are actually planning on engaging in actual naval-combat in-game.

I would suggest that armour is a no-brainer though; it was an unfortunate omission from LBB:2 for ships of any size-range or function.

 

[whulorigan]

I wasn't thinking of the frock coats so much as the broadside-type volleys in the sense of lots of boom for not much effect and just something to keep the gunners busy until you can close and board, but now it looks like First shot = last shot.

Based on narrative from Agent of the Imperium and other in-Universe descriptions of battles, it is probably closer to the latter, although it probably shouldn't be First shot = last shot / One-shot-One kill all of the time for peer-to-peer combat (but it should be heavy damage if there are not proper defensive screens or effective countermeasure systems).

This has actually been a grievance with almost all versions of Traveller within the community for a long time, namely that the Naval combat rules do not replicate what is described or seen (or desired) in combat narratives in-universe. In the BCS (Battle Class Ship) design and Combat system for T5 (which has not been published yet - but hopefully will see the light of day sometime), some of the people who principally work with the preliminary version are trying to do just that (i.e. what do we want it to look like, and make the rules replicate that).

 

[Badenov]

They didn't do any damage dice in SS:3, instead you got a fixed number of hits depending on the size of the warhead (+extra hits from vector length)

That's a reference I've never seen, sadly. It sounds interesting.

That is up to you. If you are running a campaign in the Charted Space OTU Setting, and you are going to encounter Naval vessels larger than minor escorts and auxiliaries (and the players are likely to get into potential combat) then LBB5: High Guard is your baseline. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter, as you will likely just be narrating any naval encounters, and private ship-to-ship combat can be handled with either, based on your preference.

I would focus less on the results of a poorly thought-out naval combat rules-mechanic and focus more on how the setting implies that actually things work in-universe, unless you are actually planning on engaging in actual naval-combat in-game.

I would suggest that armour is a no-brainer though; it was an unfortunate omission from LBB:2 for ships of any size-range or function.

No starship armor would make it much more like modern combat where there's no practical way to put enough armor on to blunt modern weapons. It seems like that's a shifting thing, as armor was a very big deal at TL5. I'm not in a starship combat campain, but I have this weird need to understand what works in the universe so I have some grounding in expectations.

 

[kilemall]

They didn't do any damage dice in SS:3, instead you got a fixed number of hits depending on the size of the warhead (+extra hits from vector length)

No pretty sure that’s number of die hits per warhead size/type and auto hit within maneuver range plus a try at kinetic hit bonus based on vector with entire missile that provided extra hits if successful.

Remember they had that directed energy warhead implying a HEAT type round plus lots of die hits potentially based on how much one spent on nuclear warheads.

Big change was springing for smart missiles and avoiding the ECM roll.

 

[whulorigan]

Remember they had that directed energy warhead implying a HEAT type round . . .

They called it "Focussed Force", but yes, essentially HEAT or a focussed-detonation reacting plasma.

 

[kilemall]

They called it "Focussed Force", but yes, essentially HEAT or a focussed-detonation reacting plasma.

Version I had called it DE.

 

[whulorigan]

Version I had called it DE.

Maybe you have the revised edition (I forget who updated it - might have been DonM).

 

[mike wightman]

No pretty sure that’s number of die hits per warhead size/type and auto hit within maneuver range plus a try at kinetic hit bonus based on vector with entire missile that provided extra hits if successful.

Remember they had that directed energy warhead implying a HEAT type round plus lots of die hits potentially based on how much one spent on nuclear warheads.

Big change was springing for smart missiles and avoiding the ECM roll.

This is the summary at the end of the supplement:

"ECM EFFECTS
Throw 9 + for an operating ECM program to affect an intercepting radio sensor missile during the Laser Return Fire Phase.
Intelligent detonators are immune.
Command and proximity detonators explode harmlessly.
Contact detonators still function.
Missiles on their first turn of movement still impact the target. Velocity hits can still occur.

SAND EFFECTS
For each 25 millimeters of sand which a missile passes through, throw 12+ for the missile to become incapacitated. An incapacitated missile ceases to function.

VELOCITY COMBAT EFFECTS
If the sum of the vectors of the missile and the target exceeds 300 millimeters in length then one extra hit is allowed for each 300 millimeters of vector length. Ignore fractions when dividing the vector by 300 millimeters.

COMBAT EFFECTS
Warheads produce hits; detonators may alter hits produced; velocity produces hits.
High Explosive: 2 hits per 10 kilograms.
Focused Force: 4 hits per 10 kilograms.
Nuclear Explosive: 10 hits per 0.1 kiloton yield, plus 2 radiation hits per 0.1 kiloton
yield.
Enhanced Radiation: 8 radiation hits per 0.1 kiloton yield. 5 hits per 0.1 kiloton
yield if in contact with the target.
Fusion Warhead: 10 hits per 0.1 kiloton yield, plus 2 radiation hits per 0.1 kiloton
yield.
Contact Detonator: Doubles hits produced by warhead.
Proximity Detonator: No effect on hits.
lntelligent Detonator: No effect on hits.
Command Detonator: Doubles hits produced by warhead detonated in contact"

I don't know what you are remembering but it is not the Special Supplement :3 Missiles.

 

[Condottiere]

You figure out what the other side's likely to mount, and what you can do to protect yourself from it.

So it's hit first, move out of the way, and/or shrug it off.

 

[mike wightman]

Version I had called it DE.

There is no mention of DE in SS3 - what does DE stand for and where else could you be remembering it from?

"Warheads vary by size and type of explosive. Five basic types of explosive are available: high explosive, focussed force explosive, nuclear, enhanced radiation, and fusion.
High Explosive is simple chemical explosive. It creates an blast effect which works best when in contact with the target. Chemical blast explosive warheads are produced in a 10 kilogram basic size. Larger charges can be produced by assembling more than one charge in a missile. The chemical explosive warhead produces 2 hits. Base Price: Cr500. TL 6.
Focused Force Explosive is high explosive which directs the blast toward the target, thus reducing wasted blast effect. It is an evolution of shaped charge technology. Focused force explosive is produced in 10, 20, and 30 kilogram charges; because of the nature of the focused force process, separate charges cannot be combined in a missile assembly. The focused force warhead produces 4 hits per ten kilograms of explosive. Base Price: Cr1.000 for 10 kilogram charge, Cr2,000 for 20 kilogram charge, and Cr3,OOO for 30 kilogram charge. TL 9.
Nuclear Explosive produces blast through nuclear fission. Some radiation effects are also produced. Nuclear warheads mass 30 kilograms, but can be acquired in various yields ranging from 0.1 kiloton to 10 kilotons. A nuclear warhead produces 10 hits per 0.1 kiloton of yield, and also produces 2 radiation hits per 0.1 kiloton
of yield. Base Price: Cr1,000,000 per kiloton yield. TL 8.
Enhanced Radiation warheads produce minimal blast but greater amounts of radiation. Enhanced radiation warheads mass 20 kilograms, but can produce equivalent yields of 0.1 kiloton to 10 kilotons. An enhanced radiation warhead produces 8 hits on the radiation table per 0.1 kiloton of yield. If detonated in contact with the target, it will produce 5 hits per 0.1 kiloton of yield; if not in contact, there are no ordinary hits produced. Base Price: Cr1,000,000 per kiloton yield. TL 9.
Fusion Warheads release great amounts of energy through hydrogen fusion. Those below standard tech level require a fission trigger (0.1 kiloton yield) while those at standard tech level and above achieve fusion by other means. They inflict 10 damage hits and 2 radiation hits per 0.1 kiloton of yield. Below standard tech level, there is a minimum yield of 0.2 kilotons. Base Price: Cr1,000,000 per kiloton yield (at tech level 8 there is a Cr100,OOO surcharge for the fission trigger; at TL 9, there is a Cr90,OOO surcharge for the fission trigger). TL 10. Mass: 20 kilograms (40 kilograms if below tech level 10)."

 

[whulorigan]

There is no mention of DE in SS3 - what does DE stand for and where else could you be remembering it from?

I am guessing it is for "Directed Energy".

 

[mike wightman]

Which makes me think TNE or T4 rather than SS3

 

[Spinward Flow]

The addition of armor seems like a huge change to the Traveller universe. Is it normal to run Traveller in a LBB2 vs LBB5/High Guard campaign, or does CT normally run with LBB5?

Depends on scope and scale.

If you're running a "low end" campaign of small ships on the fringes, you don't "need" to use the LBB5.80 combat system (although I prefer it over LBB2.81). It's only when you start getting into the "militarization" of space that you really need LBB5.80 and its armor and combat system.

it was an unfortunate omission from LBB:2 for ships of any size-range or function.

The lack of armor in LBB2 is just "one of those things" which is only obvious in retrospect.
LBB5.80 "cleaned up" a lot of stuff, so it tends to be the default for CT, since the LBB5.80 "framework" is more powerful and flexible (formulas instead of just tables, for example). LBB5.80 also lets you "go bigger" than a mere 5000 tons, which makes all the difference in the militarization of space.