I would probably use a fight or flight automatic response. If my ship had sufficient armour to resist any sudden shot from any type of beam or projectile perhaps I would sit around and calculate a manual response to an ambush. But my ship would probably have a super terrific response time for a proximity alarm that would auto-displace me to a safe distance to assess the automatic data of the ambush. In the wild, my favourite tiny creature , the tiny shrew of the Canadian Rockies, will make a Grizzly Bear back away by leaping towards the bear's snout.
What works? How are ships and vehicles armed?
- Thread starter Badenov
- Start date
"If I be waspish, best beware my sting."
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
How do you cause no damage on the damage tables and yet blow the ship up?
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That would be an internal hit as a consequence of the surface hit - covered in the HG tables. It is still a damage result,
As I said before (or at least that was my intent), I have no clear opinion on this, as I see some right in both sides.
On one hand, I see armor is a defense too, and as such I can see reasonable it must be penetrated to affect, even if penetration in this case means another thing that having a table where penetration is all or nothing...
OTOH, I don't see unreasonable that too much pounding on such a small target may kill it even if tables would say otherwise...
In game terms, the latter possibility would give some sense to have larger ships and to large PA spinals, as a 10 kton heavily armored ship now becomes more vulnerable to them...
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
But if there is no armour penetration and so no damage there is no critical hit.
But no surface damage, no radiation damage, no internal damage...
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Badenov
SOC-12
Ah, that's the ref I was looking for.
Armor is a defense in the Universal Ship Profile and in the general sense of the word defense. Armor is a +DM for determining damage inflicted in Combat Step 5E, where the exact damage inflicted is determined, by a hit that has penetrated other spcifically noted defenses which do not include armor in steps 5C and 5D.
Probably the same way a baseball player can hit a baseball so hard the outer layer comes off. It generally comes off intact, apart from torn stitching, so I would describe it in prose as a small gas cloud surrounded by armor plates floating slowly away from the center of the explosion.
Being vaporized is a very rare crit, you have to roll a 2 on 2d6. If you're that unlucky, I would say that sometimes stuff just happens.
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By inflicting one (or several) critical hits as it clearly states in the rules.
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Sure, but I wouldn't call this "armor holds"...
Again, where are they specifically noted (or listed), and where is specified they do not include armor?
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
My example is no penetration of armor yet damage, analogous to critical hits without penetration.
Independent of the RAW and the armor being fundamentally broken (but less so then HG79) and definitely wording issues, a consistent problem with GDW rules, a fighter with smidgeny armor withstanding a whole battery blast is nuts. The smell test should invalidate that interpretation even if somehow legally the syntax supports it.
I know all too well the stings and bites of yellow jacketed hornets, suffering 15 or 20 such, even under my hat and shirt. Still, unless I was an Q-ship courting such an attack, I would flee as far as possible, if I was able. Otherwise I would have an infallible, reverse boarding crew available!"If I be waspish, best beware my sting."
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Badenov
SOC-12
Combat step 5 explanation on page 40 at the bottom. Active defenses refers to 5C and passive defenses refers to 5D.
"If a weapon does score a hit, then it must penetrate first the defensive weapons
and then the passive defenses. Defensive weapons (sandcasters, repulsors and beam
weapons used as missile defense) must be allocated against the hits of specific
batteries. For instance, if a ship has eight laser batteries and has been hit four times
by enemy missiles, the player may allocate two laser batteries against each missile
battery hit, all eight lasers against one of the missile battery hits, or any other
combination which satisfies the player. Passive defenses (nuclear dampers, meson
screens, and configuration) resist each battery that hits. Both defensive weapons
fire and passive defenses are resolved in the same way. Consult the relevant portion
of the weapon's attack table. The number at the intersection of the column corresponding
to the attacking weapon's factor and the defending factor must be rolled
or exceeded on two dice to penetrate the defense. The die roll may be modified as
indicated by the notes on the table. If there is no portion of an attack table for a
defending weapon or passive defense, that defense is useless against that weapon.
Weapons which penetrate the ship's defenses inflict damage on their targets.
Each battery is allowed one roll on one or more damage tables, depending on
weapon type. This roll may be modified by various factors."
So passive defenses do not, in step 5D, refer to armor - only to nuclear dampers,
meson screens, and configuration. Armor protection is part of Step 5E, where penetration has happened damage inflicted is determined.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Important Question:
Why are you presuming the armor "holds" against Automatic Critical Hits?
Relevant information:
LBB5.80, p41:
Critical Hits: All batteries whose weapon code exceeds the size code of the target ship will inflict (if they hit and penetrate) automatic critical hits equal to the size difference. For example, if a missile battery of factor 9 hits a size 4 ship, it will (in addition to any other damage) inflict 5 critical hits. These critical hits are reduced in number by one for each two factors of armor the target ship has; round odd numbers down. Meson gun hits are not reduced by armor.
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Where did I said I presume so?
I was answering to the text I quoted:
And I latter said:
No, the weapon does critical damage and blows the ship up without causing any 'minor' damage along the way. You are treating everything past the first damage roll as somehow a result of that roll, rather than a separate check.HG 79 there is a roll to penetrate armour or configuration, configuration is a +DM on the damage table, damage can not be pushed off the damage table.
HG 80
Armour is a passive defence - page 18
to inflict an automatic critical a weapon must hit and penetrate - page 41
the damage table is the armour penetration table (note to the pedantic, the other weapon vs defence tables are not labelled as penetration tables either)
armour value can now push damage off the table all the way to no effect (not possible in Hg79) - i.e. no penetration, i.e. no damage and therefore no critical.
Any other interpretation is just ridiculous - a weapon does no damage and yet blows a ship up...
Here's the thing:
High Guard '80 said:
That's the rule on what happens after a shot has hit and penetrated, which makes it very clear that the damage roll (and thus the effects of armour) occur after a shot has hit and penetrated. If you get to roll damage you get to check the next paragraphs to see if you get extra hits for having a big gun (possibly reduced by armour, note) and criticals for having an overpowering attack (also possibly reduced in number by armour).
As others have noted, the damage tables to not have a 'no penetration' result. They have a 'no effect' result, which is not the same. It just means that the hit didn't do anything with any game mechanical result.
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Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Fun fact: that Armor: 2 rating means that a Code: 1 battery will not achieve an automatic critical hit against the small craft.
An Armor: 4 rating would be required to avoid automatic critical hits from Code: 2 batteries ... because small craft (Hull: 0).
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That is a simply not possible when [one thinks] about it.
No surface damage - none, not a bit
No radiation damage - none, not a bit
No Interior Explosion damage - none, not a bit
Just off to the critical table, I'm sorry but [I strongly disagree].
It is explicit in the rules: Weapons which penetrate the ship's defenses inflict damage on their targets
the ship's defenses include the armour - it says so, in black and white.
The damage table is the armour penetration table, if the result is 22+ then there is no damage, and that includes criticals.
"No effect" does not mean no affect apart for ship vapourised.
I'm sorry but I can not accept that a damage result of no effect means anything other than no damage at all.
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Badenov
SOC-12
What I don't understand is why don't they armor small craft up to the TL? It doesn't cost or weigh nearly enough to matter. And 12-15 armor gives you basically immunity to turret weapons unless they turn 30 lasers on you? Allowing armor and not using it makes less sense than not allowing it and then publishing designs that have it anyhow. Is wildly nerfing the armor somehow making up for inconsistency with the rules? (I say inconsistency because while there's two examples of published small craft not following rules, there's not any errata I've seen that actually allow it.)
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Armour has already been defined as a passive defence - penetration of armour is moved to the damage table.
No effect means no effect - no damage of any kind.
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