Actually, the Sterlings and FNs were stockpiled in 1990-91 (my old unit was among the very last to convert to the new weapons, and we were still using the old ones in th summer of 1990). Some of the FNs were even sold off. So it's possible that there might be a limited quantity available, but they shouldn't be part of the initial kit list.
What would you want to see...
- Thread starter jcrocker
- Start date
That sounds about right for conversion date. Sometime around then was when my unit (PWOR) converted.
Sterlings weren't made during WW2 like the Thompsons. I can't see us having bought more than we needed. We sold Leopard tank turrets off to Australia. I can see us selling off our Sterlings and FNs.
I mean, look at it this way: The Canadian Forces was somewhere around 83,000 members when I was in (1987-1988). It is now 57,000 or so. If you figure that includes Army, Navy, *and* Air Force (along with EW and Nurses), then you'll quickly figure that we don't need massive arms stockpiles. When we deployed to the Balkans and Afghanistan, we actually had to buy some body armour and night vision gear at the last minute. This suggests a very small logistics cache. Why? Because we've had not even enough money to keep manpower levels up, let alone deal with rust-out replacement. Our capital purchases, even replacing lost capabilities, has been minimal for about 20-30 years now.
Initial kit lists for Canucks in 2K+ should be C7, C8, C6, C9, M203, Browning HP, C3 (Parker Hale), maybe one of the new sniper rifles like the .50 (depends when they were phased in) and maybe MP5 and Diemaco's SFW (and the good old M2HB). MP5 and the SFW limited to special units like JTF2. We should get Carl Gustavs (both older and newer versions), M-72s (or whatever LAW is being used), and later Javelins. Mortars should be available.
Now, one can argue that over the time avialable and the random nature of resupply in the twilight war, you should be able to (maybe make a roll, maybe pay double cost or something) to acquire other weapons like M16A2, M4 variants (like M4 + M203 or M4 + Masterkey), M14, FN, Sterling, etc if you really wanted them.
That's my thought anyway. And for armour, Leopard 1A3-A5 (I forget where we stopped), Grizzly, Cougar, Iltis, then maybe Bison + Coyote. There are even odder EW vehicles, but I think I'm not supposed to really talk about them and they would not be of general interest (Mostly based off the 6x6 or 8x8 Chassis). We actually bought some ADATS too. Much as I like the Jeep + 106mm RR, I don't think you'll have much luck finding one nowadays.
Sterlings weren't made during WW2 like the Thompsons. I can't see us having bought more than we needed. We sold Leopard tank turrets off to Australia. I can see us selling off our Sterlings and FNs.
I mean, look at it this way: The Canadian Forces was somewhere around 83,000 members when I was in (1987-1988). It is now 57,000 or so. If you figure that includes Army, Navy, *and* Air Force (along with EW and Nurses), then you'll quickly figure that we don't need massive arms stockpiles. When we deployed to the Balkans and Afghanistan, we actually had to buy some body armour and night vision gear at the last minute. This suggests a very small logistics cache. Why? Because we've had not even enough money to keep manpower levels up, let alone deal with rust-out replacement. Our capital purchases, even replacing lost capabilities, has been minimal for about 20-30 years now.
Initial kit lists for Canucks in 2K+ should be C7, C8, C6, C9, M203, Browning HP, C3 (Parker Hale), maybe one of the new sniper rifles like the .50 (depends when they were phased in) and maybe MP5 and Diemaco's SFW (and the good old M2HB). MP5 and the SFW limited to special units like JTF2. We should get Carl Gustavs (both older and newer versions), M-72s (or whatever LAW is being used), and later Javelins. Mortars should be available.
Now, one can argue that over the time avialable and the random nature of resupply in the twilight war, you should be able to (maybe make a roll, maybe pay double cost or something) to acquire other weapons like M16A2, M4 variants (like M4 + M203 or M4 + Masterkey), M14, FN, Sterling, etc if you really wanted them.
That's my thought anyway. And for armour, Leopard 1A3-A5 (I forget where we stopped), Grizzly, Cougar, Iltis, then maybe Bison + Coyote. There are even odder EW vehicles, but I think I'm not supposed to really talk about them and they would not be of general interest (Mostly based off the 6x6 or 8x8 Chassis). We actually bought some ADATS too. Much as I like the Jeep + 106mm RR, I don't think you'll have much luck finding one nowadays.
Don't forget the L2A3, which replaced the old .30 cal GPMG.
I'm not positive, but I definitely got the impression that Canadian policy on storage of weapons no longer in service was to either sell them off or destroy them, which would pretty much eliminate Strelings and FNs.
On the armour side, the good old 113 is still around (or it was a few years ago, anyway), with all or most of the variants.
As for acquiring weapons other than those on the kit list, why not leave things the way they are in 2.0 and let characters simply buy them; the only advantage the kit list provides is a free selection and it should be left that way.
I'm not positive, but I definitely got the impression that Canadian policy on storage of weapons no longer in service was to either sell them off or destroy them, which would pretty much eliminate Strelings and FNs.
On the armour side, the good old 113 is still around (or it was a few years ago, anyway), with all or most of the variants.
As for acquiring weapons other than those on the kit list, why not leave things the way they are in 2.0 and let characters simply buy them; the only advantage the kit list provides is a free selection and it should be left that way.
imported_Sgt_Biggles
SOC-7
You Canadian military folks would know best. I agree the sterling shouldn't be in the basic kit for deployed members. I'm reaching here but didn't the English use Sterling fairly extensively? The last sterling I saw on active duty (1990) was being carried by an Egyptian Special Deployment unit. They were down in Panama working on the joint drug task force.
I have the Sterling listed in the SMG section but not as part of a starting kit for anyone. I’m using the M7 and friends as starting kit for a Canadian character.
I have learned an awful lot about Canada in the last year. If the Twilight Sourcebook makes a good showing I would like to work on some location guides. But that is a ways off.
Thanks all. Keep it coming.
I have the Sterling listed in the SMG section but not as part of a starting kit for anyone. I’m using the M7 and friends as starting kit for a Canadian character.
I have learned an awful lot about Canada in the last year. If the Twilight Sourcebook makes a good showing I would like to work on some location guides. But that is a ways off.
Thanks all. Keep it coming.
Yeah, the Brits used the Sterling and the FN; in fact, those were their standard-issue weapons (which we copied, as was our long-standing tradition), but the British replaced the old weapons with the L85 family in the 80s. Not sure whether they kept the old weapons in storage, though, but they might.
Still, I think it's really more of a case of going with the official standard issue at the point the war started for the free stuff, and let the characters buy the rest (assuming avail codes and such let them). Otherwise, every single weapon every army has ever used from the mid-60s on will have to be included in the initial kit list.
Oh, and don't forget that even our current copies of US weapons aren't exactly the same; our version of the M-16, for instance, doesn't have 20-round mags nor does it have a burst governor.
Still, I think it's really more of a case of going with the official standard issue at the point the war started for the free stuff, and let the characters buy the rest (assuming avail codes and such let them). Otherwise, every single weapon every army has ever used from the mid-60s on will have to be included in the initial kit list.
Oh, and don't forget that even our current copies of US weapons aren't exactly the same; our version of the M-16, for instance, doesn't have 20-round mags nor does it have a burst governor.
I was planning on doing just that - it's still good to know what's plausable for an area. For example, AKs would be a lot more rare in Canada than T2K Poland.
Oh? What size mags does the C7 have? Does that mean it's single shot or full auto only? Or is the user expected to practice until they can fire two or three shots from the auto setting?
The US M16 doesn't have 20 round mags anymore either. In fact, one can often see oddball drum mags and other extended mags (up to 40 or 50 rounds, though they are aftermarket). The standard 30 round mag is the norm. Although we usually loaded 27 or 28 rounds because when you load 30, you sometimes had more feed problems. Few games ever capture stuff like this though.
The C7 is slightly different to the M16. But largely the same. FYI, this is the weapon the SAS selected, instead of the US M16A2.
For vehicle crews, the C8 (an M4) should be the issue weapon. Also for special units. Our infantry has C7s and some M203s.
M7? C7. (C is for Canadian!)
Translator:
C7 - roughly M16A2
C8 - roughly M4/AR15
C6 - MAG MG
C9 - Minimi (M249)
The C9 (don't know about the US version) can fire from either C7 mags or belts(casettes I think they are).
Most of the time, we train to fire semi-auto at any meaningful ranges. You use full auto only if you really just want to make some noise and keep some heads down. Anyone half decently trained can manage 2-3 round bursts fairly easily - it isn't rocket science. You don't need a burst limiter.
Do you need some links for the weapons? I can undoubtedly find you pictures, stats, etc?
The C7 is slightly different to the M16. But largely the same. FYI, this is the weapon the SAS selected, instead of the US M16A2.
For vehicle crews, the C8 (an M4) should be the issue weapon. Also for special units. Our infantry has C7s and some M203s.
M7? C7. (C is for Canadian!)
Translator:
C7 - roughly M16A2
C8 - roughly M4/AR15
C6 - MAG MG
C9 - Minimi (M249)
The C9 (don't know about the US version) can fire from either C7 mags or belts(casettes I think they are).
Most of the time, we train to fire semi-auto at any meaningful ranges. You use full auto only if you really just want to make some noise and keep some heads down. Anyone half decently trained can manage 2-3 round bursts fairly easily - it isn't rocket science. You don't need a burst limiter.
Do you need some links for the weapons? I can undoubtedly find you pictures, stats, etc?
I'd found lots of helpful info on the DND site -
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0.asp which has lists of equipment, weapons, etc. I just looked it up now, and I guess I missed the magazine size note on the C7. Which is the C7A1, don'cha know.
I'm going to have to put that link on my site, it's just too handy.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0.asp which has lists of equipment, weapons, etc. I just looked it up now, and I guess I missed the magazine size note on the C7. Which is the C7A1, don'cha know.
I'm going to have to put that link on my site, it's just too handy.
Remember, utopia is not always a perfect place. In fact, its meaning is No Place. Having a few utopias scattered throughout the world could be a nice lead into 2300/2320AD foundations...some could even claim a mystical lineage back to the Twilight years (whereas, for others this could just be part of a larger scam/mark).
I honestly wasn't planning on any utopias - a few areas where people had, with a lot of hard work and determination, gotten things more-or-less back on an even keel while they rebuilt. Such as, the farmer's biggest worry is the weather, not where the next bandit is going to come from [but he's still got a rifle and ammo, and he still gives alcohol to the militia patrol vehicles, just in case].
Try
http://www.diemaco.com/
It has some useful variants too. Under support weapons, take a look at the E.A.G.L.E. if you want a bit of a monster...
http://www.diemaco.com/
It has some useful variants too. Under support weapons, take a look at the E.A.G.L.E. if you want a bit of a monster...
Well, I finished it over the weekend - click
http://www.geocities.com/canada2300vj/reconstruct.htm
for the Twilight: 2000 Manitoba Reconstruction Guide. Any constructive criticism would be appreciated.
http://www.geocities.com/canada2300vj/reconstruct.htm
for the Twilight: 2000 Manitoba Reconstruction Guide. Any constructive criticism would be appreciated.
newyorkronin
SOC-5
Last year, an arms depot was found in India with 1000s of Brown Bess muskets and a few cannons, apparently stockpiled by anti-British guerrillas.
With the number of gunsmiths and machinists in this country, there will be no shortage of converted automatic rifles in the T2k world.
newyorkronin
SOC-5
Come Back Alive has always been a great little resource for me, based on the book "World's Most Dangerous Places" which is in its fifth edition already. Always some tidbit.
And if Robert Kaplan writes anything in the Atlantic Monthly, I definitely pick up the issue: Travel writing from hell - Robert D. Kaplan I've used so many of his quotes from his books to establish the mood of fear and chaos in a lawless land.
newyorkronin
SOC-5
The Human Terrain of Urban Operations Some thoughts on creating realistic settlements for PCs to encounter. David Brin's novel "The Postman" was also good.
newyorkronin
SOC-5
Good stuff! The bio-diesel plant and crates of Enfields are a nice touch.
I haven't played in a while, but here are some elements from a long-running Korean campaign I played:
Maybe include a HAZMAT unit in the Army to monitor the air and ground water.
Perhaps a shortwave radio station running telegrams with other towns.
Electricity is rationed and unreliable even when it is on.
If the Black Hand or any major gang activity occurs, the best thing a militia can do first is declare a curfew. Anyone caught after dark is up to trouble.
Barter clubs can be set up. (This was tried in Argentina during their recent financial crisis. They used a credit system and it actually worked ok on a large scale.)
Here are the formulae from the 2.2 chargen sheet.
Basic attributes: 2d6-2, re-roll '0' results.
Initiative:
regular military - 1d6
reserve military - 1d6/2, round up
drafted military - 1d6/2, round down
+1 if ranger, airborne, special forces, force recon, sniper
-1 if support, air force enlisted, aviation enlisted, military intelligence, civillian
[initiative never less than 1]
Rads: Military - 1d6 per 2xinit, Civilian - 1d6 x 1d10
Hit Capacity:
Head - con x 2
Chest - [str + con] x3
Other - [str + con] x2
Weight: base of 4x [str - agl]
Male = base + 80
Female = base + 65
Load: 3 x [str + con]
Throw Range: 4 x str [for a 1kg (2.2 lb) object]
Unarmed Combat Damage:
Melee Combat (Unarmed) x str /10, round down
Equipment allowance: 5000 x military terms, doubled if officer
Hope this helps.
Basic attributes: 2d6-2, re-roll '0' results.
Initiative:
regular military - 1d6
reserve military - 1d6/2, round up
drafted military - 1d6/2, round down
+1 if ranger, airborne, special forces, force recon, sniper
-1 if support, air force enlisted, aviation enlisted, military intelligence, civillian
[initiative never less than 1]
Rads: Military - 1d6 per 2xinit, Civilian - 1d6 x 1d10
Hit Capacity:
Head - con x 2
Chest - [str + con] x3
Other - [str + con] x2
Weight: base of 4x [str - agl]
Male = base + 80
Female = base + 65
Load: 3 x [str + con]
Throw Range: 4 x str [for a 1kg (2.2 lb) object]
Unarmed Combat Damage:
Melee Combat (Unarmed) x str /10, round down
Equipment allowance: 5000 x military terms, doubled if officer
Hope this helps.
