What X-Boat travels in your universe?

[Whipsnade]

As I understand jump 8and I may well be wrong), the vector must be calculated to be in the correct vector at the correct time, and, as you say, IISS takes all care to avoid missjumps, making them anecdotical to unheard of.

There's a jump space "vector" - the 2D plot used for jump shadows and masking that Mr. Miller told Wil to use for his calculations - and a real space vector. There's a real space vector which is carried through jump. A "helpful" real space vector carried through jump cannot be calculated with the precision you assume because of the temporal accuracy of jump drive.

As you don't know the exact time of incoming X-boat arrival (it may be at anytime along a time span (version dependent), you cannot have the X-boat in the jumping vector when it arrives, though its correct vector is constantly updated in wait of the arrival.

The temporal accuracy of jump means you cannot be that precise and the nature of X-boat operations means you don't need to be that precise. Waiting a few more minutes or a few more hours to jump because you want to tweak a vector isn't going to help because jump's temporal accuracy introduces a far greater error than the correction you hope to make.

Here's the bit you've overlooked: X-boats aren't "aiming" for the 100D limit. They don't care about traveling to planets, belts, or whatnot. They don't need to worry about creating a vector which will help them in-system. They don't want to travel in-system at all.

Instead, X-boats are 'aiming" for that 12K km radius sphere out in the system somewhere and they want a vector which will leave them moving at either rest or at a low velocity within that sphere.

Let's look at a jump between Ruie and Regina for both a free trader and an X-boat. (Yes, there is not a X-boat link between the two. Let's just pretend there is one for this example.)

I'm in my Beowulf, I'm going to Ruie, and I'm calculating what real space vector I want to carry through jump space. From Regina's frame of reference, Ruie the system is moving along a vector but Ruie the planet is moving too and moving along constantly changing vectors.

Because I'm going to Ruie the planet, I'm going to take into account Ruie the planet's range of vectors within the range of times I'm likely to arrive. Using that data, I'm going to select the a "best case" real space vector which will help me travel to Ruie the planet after exiting jump. That "best case" vector is going to be one that works for most of my potential arrival times. That "best case" vector is one that will have me already moving towards Ruie when I arrive.

Now I'm in an X-boat and I'm jumping between Regina and Ruie again. I'm not interesting in traveling to Ruie the planet this time, so it's vectors don't matter. I'm not interested in traveling to anywhere in the Ruie system, I just want to pop out at the X-boat station. That means I'm only interested in the vector of the Ruie system as seen from Regina.

In this case, I'm going to choose a real space vector that has the best chance of leaving me at "rest" with respect to Ruie the system. Again, not knowing precisely when I'll arrive means my choice won't be perfect and my X-boat will emerge with a vector that doesn't quite leave me at rest. I can get pretty close, however, closer than I can with Ruie the planet.

Of course, this does not preclude the jumping of the outgoing X-boat in about an hour as you say, jsut may make the incoming one to wait for a little more (but it is not significant).

I'm not saying the out-going boat departs within an hour of the in-coming boat's arrival. I'm saying the tender/station can rendezvous with the in-coming boat within an hour because at one gee it can traverse the 12K km radius sphere within an hour.

The out-going X-boat is going to depart with it is "loaded". It's been already been staged with fuel and a pilot aboard. It's already been given an "at rest" vector for the next system. All it's waiting for are those messages. Once they're aboard, the 'boat can jump. It could wait 15 minutes. It could wait one hour. It could wait longer, especially if there are passengers and parcels to transfer. All that matters is whether the X-boat is loaded or not. When the load is aboard, that 'boat is gone.

 

[aramis]

Bill, the realspace vector is preserved across jump, and MUST be cancelled by acceleration at one end or the other. The tugs MUST cancel it lest it become too fast to match to.

 

[Whipsnade]

Bill, the realspace vector is preserved across jump, and MUST be cancelled by acceleration at one end or the other. The tugs MUST cancel it lest it become too fast to match to.

I said the real space vector is preserved. That means you can put yourself on a vector before jump which is helpful after jump. It's part of TNE and there are earlier adventures which depend on it.

Before jumping from the departure system, you put yourself on a vector which is helpful in the arrival system. Not perfect, not precise, helpful. For an X-boat, a helpful vector created in the departure system is one that leaves it (mostly) at rest in the arrival system.

There's no need for chase tugs. The tender can get the job done.

 

[aramis]

I said the real space vector is preserved. That means you can put yourself on a vector before jump which is helpful after jump. It's part of TNE and there are earlier adventures which depend on it.

Before jumping from the departure system, you put yourself on a vector which is helpful in the arrival system. Not perfect, not precise, helpful. For an X-boat, a helpful vector created in the departure system is one that leaves it (mostly) at rest in the arrival system.

There's no need for chase tugs. The tender can get the job done.

The tender must also be capable of functioning AS a chase-tug, in order to get that vector set. Which also adds handling time to the process.

 

[Whipsnade]

The tender must also be capable of functioning AS a chase-tug, in order to get that vector set. Which also adds handling time to the process.

Yes it does and the tender has 24 hours to stage the out-going boat on the helpful vector and then return to a position best situated to intercept/rendezvous with the arriving boat.

There will be routes with large vector differences between the systems linked. Differences so large that a tender won't have the time to correct for them. Tugs will be used there.

Tugs won't be used in all situations however.

 

[Swiftbrook]

If you attach two X-Boats, you've doubled its mass...

Maneuver drives work on volume, not mass. Unless you're a GT purist, I seriously doubt you calculate different accelerations depending on how much your Beowulf is loaded.

OK

If you attach two X-Boats, you've doubled your volume. You now have a 1G drive on a 200dt station with two 100dt X-Boats with no maneuver drives so effectively you have a 1/2-G drive on 400 dt of ship.

On another note, from a practical point of view, the station needs to be close to a fuel source, either a planet or a gas giant. The planet's/gas giant's 100 diameter distance could come into play.

Finally, does an X-Boat need to have a velocity to jump? Can't it literally be sitting in space and then jump? If so, that eliminates or greatly reduces the need for a ship to chase down an X-Boat and stop/modify it's vector.

 

[aramis]

Yes it does and the tender has 24 hours to stage the out-going boat on the helpful vector and then return to a position best situated to intercept/rendezvous with the arriving boat.

There will be routes with large vector differences between the systems linked. Differences so large that a tender won't have the time to correct for them. Tugs will be used there.

Tugs won't be used in all situations however.

It's less likely a dedicated tug will be used than a second tender in cases where the vectors are high. If the tug has to commit more than a couple hours to match, it has to the commit a couple hours to reversing for the return trip... once those exceed about 12 hours, you've missed the next day's xboat.

 

[flykiller]

re: system vector differentials - looked into this, the difference with most systems is not significant and can be overcome by at most 10 minutes of 1g accel. now if a single xboat were to jump from core to jewell the accumulated vector would be huge, but if xboats simply jump back and forth between two established destinations then system vector differentials will be a minor issue (with most systems - some systems are not from this galaxy and are moving at quite a clip through this one).

The planet's/gas giant's 100 diameter distance could come into play.

e.g. jupiter, at m2, 7.5 hours in then 7.5 hours out.

(stupid me) correction: 15 hours in, 15 hours out.

now if you're playing with 100d jump occlusion and a launch/target system is on the other side of the local gg 100d, then there will be either significant vector at jump/precipitation or there will be significant time delay clearing the occlusion. nothing that can't be worked out, but it's not always a simple "the fueler/depot/crew tender goes and gets the xboat".

local star 100d jump occlusion may be more significant.

 

[Whipsnade]

re: system vector differentials - looked into this, the difference with most systems is not significant and can be overcome by at most 10 minutes of 1g accel. now if a single xboat were to jump from core to jewell the accumulated vector would be huge, but if xboats simply jump back and forth between two established destinations then system vector differentials will be a minor issue (with most systems - some systems are not from this galaxy and are moving at quite a clip through this one).

Ten minutes at one gee takes care of most.

Kinda dials back all this concerns over dedicated tugs, doesn't it?

 

[flykiller]

Kinda dials back all this concerns over dedicated tugs, doesn't it?

you make a strong case for it, but I'll have to look at it more. especially given your example of grote, I don't think one xboat a day is going to cut it on routes like mora/fornice, or glisten/aki/newRome, or for that matter on any route. more like one xboat an hour.

 

[Whipsnade]

I don't think one xboat a day is going to cut it on routes like mora/fornice, or glisten/aki/newRome, or for that matter on any route. more like one xboat an hour.

Temporal accuracy Fly. 168 hours +/- 16.8 hours. You start pushing boats down the link more than once every 24 hours, you start increasing the chances boats will arrive out of order. If the 1400hr boat arrives before the 1200hr boat, you just "wasted" the 1200hr boat's flight. You end up paying a lot more money for a minor increase in efficiency.

The "one boat every 24 hours per link" tempo was hashed out right here years ago. Hans wanted more departures, probably to soak up more of the Imperium's taxes, but the time issues eventually convinced him. IIRC, Robject let us know that Mr. Miller considers the 24 hour tempo correct.

Those "tightly scheduled" packets I mentioned in an earlier thread? The ones that link Grote with Glisten and Stroudon via Weiss and Harvosette? They bring in X-boat message loads, multiple loads actually, but they provide Four Hundred Hour service, not daily. One of them shows up every 17 days or so.

 

[flykiller]

Temporal accuracy Fly. 168 hours +/- 16.8 hours. You start pushing boats down the link more than once every 24 hours, you start increasing the chances boats will arrive out of order. If the 1400hr boat arrives before the 1200hr boat, you just "wasted" the 1200hr boat's flight.

yeah, it's called "concurrency". programmers and the internet deal with it all the time, it's not a show-stopper, you just deal with it. and given the amount of business activities between such entities you can bet that if the imperium doesn't do it then everyone will bypass the imperial xboats and set up their own private service, both in-house and for public use.

You end up paying a lot more money for a minor increase in efficiency.

there's too much money at stake not to. you are aware of course of hft? hundreds of millions of dollars spent on programmers, systems, and comms, all to gain milliseconds of advantage and a few more pings. you'll see the same thing in the xboat service, people looking for first info in trade, research, contracts, deliveries, expansions, contractions, crop failures, legal decisions, imperial intentions, troop movements, fleet deployments, government shutdowns, you name it.

400 hour service - yeah, that works for "fly-over country". but not the big hubs.

the only issue is what routes would have such interest. mora/fornice, absolutely. mora/trin, maybe. mora/glisten, I don't know.

 

[Swiftbrook]

The 'one boat per 24 hr rule', is that per system or per link? A system like Regina has three links: Roup, Jenghe, and Dinomn, and could theoretically receive boats directly from Extolay as well. So does Regina receive one boat per day or three with an occasional unscheduled fourth?

Glisten has four links with a total of seven systems on the x-boat lines within 4 parsecs.

I can't really see big and/or important systems like Regina or Glisten only receiving one boat per link per day. Even if boats overlap each other I think the amount of civilian traffic generated in 24 hours is more than one boat can carry. I'm not implying that this is a ripple effect. Looking at the Glisten, Bendor, Ffudn (F) route. I can easily envision two or three boats may go between Glisten and Bendor per day but only one between Bendor and Ffund.

 

[Whipsnade]

yeah, it's called "concurrency". programmers and the internet deal with it all the time, it's not a show-stopper, you just deal with it.

That was brought up in the old discussion. We deal with concurrency because we have to, we need networks to work because they're the only show in town.

Is the X-boat system the only show in town for the people who cut the checks? Do the nobility, military, and megacorps only use the X-boat system? Or do they have something else? Something with rational routes? Something with jump6 capabilities? Something faster, more efficient, more focused?

Don't forget the "big twist" concerning the X-boat system revealed by the Rebellion. It's not a communications systems. It's a control system.

 

[Whipsnade]

The 'one boat per 24 hr rule', is that per system or per link?

Seriously? I written "one boat every 24 hours per link" many times over the last two days. When discussing maneuver drives aboard X-boats, I even asked the reader to envision a string of seven X-boats in a link each arriving one day after the other.

One Boat. Per Day. Per Link.

I can't really see big and/or important systems like Regina or Glisten only receiving one boat per link per day. Even if boats overlap each other I think the amount of civilian traffic generated in 24 hours is more than one boat can carry.

Civilian traffic? Really? A 20kb X-boat message cost twenty dollars for each parsec. Do you have sixty bucks to send all of 20 kilobytes between Regina and Roup? I've got a 1.5 page resume that says far too little. It's 18 kilobytes. I wouldn't spend sixty buck to send it anywhere.

Commercial traffic? The bigger the company the more options open to it. Some will use the system, some will use scheduled shipping, some will use couriers.

The military and nobility? They don't use the system unless they must.

Is there really enough traffic for extra boats? Will the people who cut the checks and don't use the system pay for extra boats?

 

[Swiftbrook]

Seriously? I written "one boat every 24 hours per link" many times over the last two days. When discussing maneuver drives aboard X-boats, I even asked the reader to envision a string of seven X-boats in a link each arriving one day after the other.

I apologies. I've got a head cold and I didn't read every post - even if I did start this poll. Real life sometimes kick in.

 

[Whipsnade]

I apologies.

Whoa there. There's no need for you to apologize for anything.

Thanks to my harum-scarum, piss poor posting style I'm surprised anyone can get anything out of much of what I post.

 

[Swiftbrook]

Civilian traffic? Really? A 20kb X-boat message cost twenty dollars for each parsec. Do you have sixty bucks to send all of 20 kilobytes between Regina and Roup? I've got a 1.5 page resume that says far too little. It's 18 kilobytes. I wouldn't spend sixty buck to send it anywhere.

I think that's a 1980s sci-fi technology point of view. Technology is much cheaper and holds way more than the 1980 imagination. I can fit a two terabyte drive in my hand now. That's 100,000,000 of your $60 messages. Or 6,000,000,000 credits in the palm of my hand. If your resume cost just 0.01 credit to send they'd be making a crapload of money. How many palm sized 2 Tb drives can fit the the databank area of an X-Boat?

(More math) there is at least 40 cubic meters of data banks on a CT Sup 7 deckplan. Assume 90% wasted space. That's 4 cubic meters for Palm size 2 Tb drives. What, that's at least 4,000 drives?

X-Boats can't afford to charge that much. If there was that kind of money in it, there would be lots of private firms competing with them. Ala UPS, FedEX, USPS, etc.

 

[flykiller]

We deal with concurrency because we have to, we need networks to work because they're the only show in town.

concurrency issues are inherent to any multiple-access communication system. it shows up in bible translation, in payroll systems, and in the fog-of-war encountered by general staffs.

limiting data transmission to once a day will indeed resolve most concurrency issues, but people would rather have the most up-to-date info they can get despite any concurrency issues that arise.

Thanks to my harum-scarum, piss poor posting style I'm surprised anyone can get anything out of much of what I post.

can't speak for anyone else but I always read your posts first.

 

[Whipsnade]

I think that's a 1980s sci-fi technology point of view.

More like 1970s, but you're completely correct. Sadly, it's what were stuck with when trying to "explain" the system. The system was designed with those metrics firmly in mind. It won't work as described with, what are in 2016, more realistic numbers.

It's a package unfortunately. The physical description of the system, how jump works, message pricing, all it. It's like a Jenga tower with the least amount of pieces. Pull one and everything falls.

You know how antiquated the system descriptions come across now in 2016? One of the CT supplements includes an X-boat message blank that looks like a paper Western Union telegram form!

X-Boats can't afford to charge that much. If there was that kind of money in it, there would be lots of private firms competing with them. Ala UPS, FedEX, USPS, etc.

IMTU the 'boats and IISS do have a lot of competition. IMTU, certain organizations are obligated to use the boats, just like how certain legal documents must be published in local newspapers. IMTU, the system's routes are also rather different.

In the OTU, I'd like to think they have competition too. Look at Al Morai. It covers a big chunk of the Marches and one of it's ships will show up every four weeks at the world along it's routes. You want to send a message from Karin to Mora, Al Morai is faster and cheaper than the X-boats. Then there's lines like Oberlindes and Arekut.

I don't "like" the OTU X-boat system. I don't use it IMTU. I just trying my best to "explain" it.