What you THOUGHT you knew about CT???

[Supplement Four]

I have discovered, just in the last couple of days, that some Traveller players (and I'm talking about some people who have been playing Traveller for 20+ years) don't know Classic Traveller as well as they thought they did.

My guess is that other versions of Traveller (and maybe some long used house rules) have colored the way they look at the original game (and, maybe it's just been a long, long time since a particular section of the rules have been read).

So, I thought I'd start a thread where we could discuss some of the peculiararities that make up the grand old game!

Forget everything you know about any other edition of Traveller, except Classic. And, also consider that Classic is a multi-edition game (Most people are familiar with the second edition of the game.). When it was the only Traveller in existence, the rules grew, incorporating changes, like any good system should.

This thread is meant to educate those interested in Classic Traveller (and maybe correct some misconceptions held by some long time CT fans!).

Feel free to discuss anything you think is "peculiar", "original", "neat" or "nifty", and especially "not widely known" about the game that everybody thinks they know as well as they know how to spell their own names!

 

[Supplement Four]

Bonus Skills!

One often ignored section of CT is the Experience Rules.

Did you know that, by using these rules, you have the opportunity to boost your character with two additional skills, straight out of chargen?

Everybody likes weapons skills, so I'll focus this post on those. But, the Experience Rules can be used to improve other aspects of your character.

If your character has a background in one of the six original careers (Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts, Merchants, Other)--and some other careers from Supplement 4 as well--then he is considered to have Skill-0 in normal, everyday weapons.

If your character embarks on a self-improvement program, via the Experience Rules, he can focus on two weapon skills: one gun combat skill and one blade combat skill.

He must first pass the determination test, which is a roll of 8+. Failing this roll means that he cannot try again for a game year. If the roll is made, the character is home free.

He picks one gun combat and one blade combat skill. I suggest picking a zero-level skill. Why? Because Skill-0 skills that are subject to the self-improvement program are rasied to Skill-1 permanently!!!.

Thus, even if the character fails to complete self-improvement program, he receives the two skill increases!

So, jump out of chargen.

Make your determination throw (the hardest part of this).

And, boom, the character is granted two new Level-1 weapon expertise skills!



It's like finishing chargen, and then having your GM say, "Hey, roll me 8+, and I'll give you two new skills!"

 

[Supplement Four]

Skill-1 does not always = +1

Misconception: A +1 DM per level of Skill is applied to task throws.

Reality: This is usually the truth but not always the truth.





One of the beauties of Classic Traveller is that the GM is encouraged to customize task throws to a given situation (instead of shoe-horning a one-size-fits-all task system to all situations, no matter how bad the fit).

And, because of this, the weight of influence a character's skill has on the task throw can change if needed.

I'll give you two examples from the rule book:



The throw to revive low berth passengers is 5+ (6+ if the passenger has END 6-).

If the character has Medical-2 skill or better, he receives a +1 DM on this throw.

Note that: Non-skilled characters receive no penalty; Characters with Medical-1 receive no bonus; And, characters with Medical-5 recieve no greater bonus.





The throw to successfully complete a non-ordinary maneuver in a vacc suit is 10+. A DM of +4 per level of Vacc Suit skill is used to modify the throw.

Note how brilliant that is. Characters without Vacc Suit skill can still attempt the maneuver, but it's a tough toss (at 10+!). Characters with just Vacc Suit-1 are fairly compentent with maneuvers like this (throwing 6+).

Anybody with Vacc Suit-2 or better makes the throw automatically! Throwing 2+ to make the maneuver.

It's a brilliant way to designate the value of skill on this particular task--and it's this type of thing that makes the free-form Classic Traveller system a much better choice than your usual structured task system seen in most other games.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

S4, not to rein in your parade, but I think there's a reason the experience rules are underused and therefore underremembered. The reason is the wonky time frame.

That skill improvement you describe takes four (4) years.* And in the case of all but zero-level skills it takes eight (8) years to make it permanent.

Four years spent enlisted in what the rules call a "program," which many GMs (including me) will have taken to mean: some kind of night school thing that a PC must attend on a regular basis. Daily, weekly, who knows.

That's neither fun nor practical for roving adventurers--no, not even if it's self-taught.

"Y'all have fun checking out Downport. Me, I'm staying behind. Blade practice."

Even more, four to eight years are simply way too long to matter for all but the longest campaigns.

*I know, you get the improvement from day 1 of enrollment. But that's just it: If you don't take the "program" thing seriously it's a dead giveaway. And if you do, it's impractical.

 

[Supplement Four]

2D, higher is better, is not always the way to go...

Misconception: A task throw in Traveller is 2D, and higher is better.

Reality: This is easy and used a lot, but it's definitely not always the case!





We get used to throwing 2D for a number or better in Traveller, and, usually, that number is 8+.

I used that notion when I designed the Universal Game Mechanic, and Mongoose is using the same notion in their UGM-esque task mechanic used in MGT.

But, is that the way it always needs to be?

Certainly not!





One of the strengths of Classic Traveller is that the GM is encouraged to customize a throw to the situation. Sometimes the influence of skills needs to be increased. Sometimes that influence needs to be minimized.

For an example of both, see my last post. But, those were both higher-is-better examples.

Consider the bribery rules described under the Bribery skill. We are instructed to roll the Law Level of the world, or less, on 2D, as a general method of tasking a bribe.

But, a second method is offered as well: First, rolling the reaction of the person being bribed using the Reaction Chart, then roll that number or less (reaction) on 2D, using these modifiers: +5 DM for no Bribery skill; -1 DM per level of Bribery skill; -2 DM if the reaction number was 12.





Another interesting task is the way thrown blades are handled: Roll 18+ to hit; DM +DEX; DM +Blade Skill; DM -Evasion.





Marc Miller writes, in The Traveller Adventure, that characteristics can be used for an appropriate situation simply by rolling the character's stat or less on 2D. For example, lifting a heavy object can be easily determined by throwing 2D for STR or less. More delicate situations may call for a DEX throw. To figure if a character remembers or notices something, an INT throw may be appropriate. 3D or 4D can be used for particularly hard throws.

Here is an example Marc wrote that describes how a GM should create throws that fit a specific situation:

An adventurer (46797A) has experienced a malfunction in the drive room of her vessel. The situation seems hopeless at the moment, and she is forced to abandon ship. The air lock hatch, however, is warped shut. A quick resolution to the problem is to state that she must roll STR or less to force it open.

After several unsuccessful rolls, she casts about for a pry bar to help her. The referee arbitrarily rules that the bar allows -4 on the die roll (the referee could guess or roll one die for the result).

On the next roll, the adventurer is successful; then she makes her way to the ship's locker for her vacc suit. Grabbing a survival pack, she proceeds to abandon ship.

She knows that the drives cannot stand the strain much longer, and that she must get out immediately. The referee decides that the drives will explode on 9+ in the current turn, 8+ in the next turn, and so on.

The referee decides that the character's last minute repair attempts have been partially successful, and he increases the needed roll by her level of Engineering skill (Engineering-2). Now, the first roll is 11+. Next round it's 10+, and so on.

The ref rules that the first turn was used by the adventurer to don the vacc suit. The survival kit will take an extra round to collect.

The ref rolls to see if the ship explodes (11+). It does not, and she grabs the survival kit.

On the second turn, the ref checks again for the explosion (10+). Once more, the ship remains intact.

On the third turn, while the character is drifting away from the ship, the ref rolls 11 and the drives explode (9+ was needed). The distress call from her radio attracts a local asteroid miner. He is required by custom an law to pick her up, but may not like being diverted to an unprofitable rescue mission. The referee tolls two dice for the belter's reaction (on the reaction table): the result is a 4.

She must now convince him to take her to the local starport so that she can arrange salvage of her ship. She may add any applicable skills, such as Streetwise, Bribery, even a -1 for INT 9+, if the ref thinks this all appropriate.

Obviously, in a situation such as this, repeated requests will not be possible (or they may be allowed at -1 DM per request). Probably, she only gets to try once.

Even with DMs totalling -3, she rolls an 8, which does not convince the miner to go out of his way to help her. She is stuck on his ship until he finishes his prospecting run of (the ref rolls one die) 4 months. Judging by his reaction roll to her, he'll probably make her pay for room and board as well.





If you are interested in more discussion of how to create throws for a Classic Traveller game, click on the Rule 68A link in my signature.

 

[Supplement Four]

S4, not to rein in your parade, but I think there's a reason the experience rules are underused and therefore underremembered. The reason is the wonky time frame.

That skill improvement you describe takes four (4) years.* And in the case of all but zero-level skills it takes eight (8) years to make it permanent.

(snip)

*I know, you get the improvement from day 1 of enrollment. But that's just it: If you don't take the "program" thing seriously it's a dead giveaway. And if you do, it's impractical.

The post was about the fact that a character can get two more skills, permanently, when embarking on an improvement program when trying to improve two Skill-0 weapon skills.

One can make the determination throw, immediately get the skill upgrade, and then completely forget about the skill improvement program because the Skill-0 upgrade is permanent.

I was pointing out a legal way to get two more skills straight out of character generation.





But, let's talk a little more about the Experience rules. First off, they're made to mirror Basic Character Generation (as I think they should). The character being played will improve at about the same rate has he would if he was still going through character generation.

Basic Character generation results in one skill per term, and that's how the Experience Rule works. It takes 8 years, or 2 terms, to gain 2 skill levels.

That's one skill per term!



Second, a player could try to loop hole the rules by improving nothing but Skill-0 skills. But, as you will see, this will work out about the same. The determination throw is 8+. This means, in four years, the character will succeed 1-2 times (1.68 times). Given play conditions and not always being able to "train", we'll drop fractions, allowing the character to gain two skills in a four year term.

Note that yes, there's room for abuse here, but that's the GM's domain. And, even if successful (about 3 successes in 8 years), we're still only talking about low level skills (Skill-1).



Third, Traveller characters have TWO Experience Systems from which to choose. Book 4 offers a more intense training method that allows for faster character improvement. But, this system also has a heavier training time requirement.

Think of the Experience System in Book 2 as improvement by self-teaching. (Using computer programs, practice, reading books, etc.)

Think of the Experience System in Book 4 as improvement by using an instructor. (Training guided by a learned professional.)

Book 4 Experience also mirriors character generations (both Basic and Advanced) and accounts for those times when more than one skill per term is earned (as in the 1st term during Basic CharGen, through special schools or promotions, or various options under Advanced CharGen).

Using Book 2 and Book 4 Experience Sytems together will mimic the training the character received during character generation, no matter if the character was created using Basic or Advanced chargen.




Fourth, and let's not forget the Experience Limit: INT + EDU. A character who constantly trains will run into periods where he might have to suspend training in order to raise his EDU.

And, also don't forget that EDU cannot be raised higher than INT. So, if EDU is already higher than INT, the character's Experience Limit cannot be changed.

 

[Supplement Four]

One more thing about the Experience Rules in Book 2, Rhialto...

These rules allow for ups and down in skill level, making characters dynamic and realistic rather than stagnant.

Using the rules, a character's skill will increase and decrease as he moves through the improvement program.

A character with Rifle-2 may set off on a program to improve his Rifle skill. If his determination is up to it, he gets the benefit of Rifle-3 immediately.

Let's say, as the game progresses, he gets the opportunity to study medicine. The character is Medical-2, but with some more study, he can obtain his MD and achieve Medical-3 expertise.

The character then drops the Rifle training program in order to focus on his medical studies. His Rifle-3 skill drops back down to Rifle-2, but his Medical-2 skill improves to Medical-3 while he's training it.

Do you see how the character's skills are in flux? Kinda like real life.

And, we're not talking about a flux that happens within weeks. There's years between these changes.

It's not unlike how, when you were in college and used calculus all the time for various classes, you knew the formulas and procedures at hand.

But now, years later, after you've not studied or worked with calculus for a long time, you're rusty with it. You might even need to read a primer to get you back in the groove.

In Traveller terms, you were training one skill, and then you let it drop down a level in favor of turning your focus elsewhere (or you reached your Experience Limit and you had to drop something!).





When I first read the Traveller Experience Rules, years ago, I was like everybody else. I didn't like them. I thought that they were slow. I wanted something more like D&D where measured progress can be seen each game session.

But now I understand the Traveller Experience Rules, and I will say that, although not perfect (what is in an RPG), they sure are more life-like than the D&D system!

I like how the Experience System in Traveller, from both Book 2 and Book 4, work together to mirror character generation.

And, I like how the Experience System reflects a living, breathing human who, at times in his life, excels in one area, only to find that area downgraded a bit from the level it was when the character was in his "prime".

 

[Supplement Four]

Skill-0 Training

A note about focusing training on Skill-0 skills.

If a player wanted, he could look at all the zero level weapon skills he has and just focus on those.

The rules allow for him to train one gun combat and one blade combat during an improvement program. The thing about zero level skills is that the immediate improvement is permanent.

So, a character could train two skills, drop the program, pick up a new program with two more skills, train those, and so on.

Doing this, the character would increase skills quite quickly--faster than any other method in Traveller (including through chargen or through Book 4 training).

But, there are a few limiting factors that will usually keep this from happening.

1. Determination. The program takes an 8+ throw to stay "determined". No DMs on the throw. Thus, it's a 42% chance of success (odds go to the house ). Failing the throw means another cannot be attempted for an entire game year.

2. The Experience Limit. A character has a finite number of skills levels he can have at one time equal to his INT + EDU. Continually gaining low level weapon skills that will normally not be used (smart characters focus on one or two blade weapons and one or two gun combat weapons so that extra levels increase the chance to hit and damage an opponent) usually results in wasted and unsused skills.

3. Opportunity. Circumstances must be "right" in a campaign to allow the character to train. This is the realm of GM guidance.

4. GM. And, now that we've mentioned the GM, let's not forget that he has the last word in how training will go in his game.

5. Player Direction. A player may have a certain type of character in mind that will affect his decision of what he trains and when he trains it.



So, what I'm saying is: Even though the opportunity is there to gain a lot of skills by exploiting zero-level skills, chances are, players will choose not to go down that road. In many ways, it can be counter-productive to the character.

 

[far-trader]

enough...

...The thing about zero level skills is that the immediate improvement is permanent.

Just stop already ok. You don't know everything about CT better than anybody and this is one case in point of many you've made the last while.

I'd decided to ignore the issue since there seems to be no convincing you but I started wondering how many people you'd convince that you're right and the rules and a few of us are so very wrong. So I'll probably have to try (no doubt with no luck) to show you that you are the one who has it wrong.

Let me preface that with the standard it really doesn't matter because it's just a game and we can all play it how we want to. What riles me is you claiming superior knowledge and looking down your nose at anyone who doesn't see your grand unified presumption theory.

Now then, the meat of this post:

Traveller Book 2 - Experience - Weapon Expertise - The rule, and I quote:

"One gun and one blade weapon may be chosen; skill level in each is increased by 1 for the duration of the program. If a weapon is chosen in which the character has a skill level of zero, skill level is increased for that weapon to 1, permanently."

Where you're wrong: The weapon skill level is increased to 1, permanently ONLY UPON COMPLETION OF THE PROGRAM. Notice the bit about "for the duration of the program" that comes before the "permanently", which is specifically applied to skill level of zero cases. It is a qualifier to distinguish the case from if you had skill level greater than zero. Nothing more. Certainly not a free for all instant weapon skill with no training needed.

If you fail to make your dedication throw you get no benefit (and in my opinion there should be a cool off time before attempting another program).

EDIT: Ah, there is a cooling off period. I'd forgotten that, but I'm big enough to admit I don't know it all by heart anymore. So 1 year before trying again.

If you quit the program of you own accord during play (after making the dedication throw) that is (or certainly should be and would be to any reasonable player) the same as failing the dedication throw and you get no benefit, no permanent level 1 skill and the temporary level 1 you had evaporates and you're back to level zero.

So no, you can't just go willy nilly with 1 day (1 week, 1 hour, whatever duration you're thinking of less than 4 years) weapon programs on all your zero level weapon skills to bump them all to level 1 permanently as you seem to be implying if not outright stating as a rule and the way it was meant to be played.

EDIT: Again, noting the 1 year cooling off period I'd forgotten about, you still can't get any permanent benefit without completing the program.

 

[Supplement Four]

The Big Presumption

The Big Presumption!



When the core rules were written, a bias was in-place skewing rules towards characters with backgrounds of one of the six original career choices: Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts, Merchants, Other.

Rules were not only written with those careers in mind but also for characters from fairly high tech level backgrounds. We know this because PCs are given high-tech skills by default (Pilot, Navigation, Engineering, etc.).

This makes sense, yes? If you were writing a role playing game, you'd write the rules with the player characters in mind, wouldn't you?

I mean, when the throw to bring a passenger out of low berth was created, the writer wasn't thinking of a grandma from a TL 4 world who had never seen a low berth crib in her life.

Of course, not. That's preposterous.

The writer was thinking of an Imperial Marine, an ex-Army officer, a Naval medic, a Merchant steward, a travelling crime lord--or, in other words, player characters.

This is the Big Presumption: That most core Traveller rules are written with a bias towards characters from the six orignal careers.

And, you can see this is default, because, when other careers are introduced, there are notes about how these new careers differ from the original six: You'll see it in alien character generation; You'll see it in descriptions from careers in Supplement 4 as in the Barbarian or the Doctor (who does not benefit from getting Skill-0 in normal weapons as characters from all six orignal careers do).




Consider the Big Presumption when you read a rule like this, from the description of the Air/Raft: A basic throw of 5+ is needed to avoid an accident during a high speed chase.

There are DMs to the throw, but the task does not require the character to have Air/Raft skill.

Is this saying that all people can fly an air/raft by default, without skill, even Skill-0?

No.

It's saying that all types of player characters, with backgrounds in the six original careers, are capable of flying an air/raft without having the skill.*

A GM is perfectly within the realm of plausibility to require a different type of character (say, a Doctor from a TL 4 world, like Pysadi in the Spinward Marches) to have at least Skill-0 or not be able to fly such a craft.

Always remember The Big Presumption when GMing Classic Traveller. Who is your audience? PCs from the original six careers...or a character from a different background?


*The Air/Raft skill, itself, says that the air/raft is common on most high tech worlds and that most people are aware of the basics of operation for such vehicles.

 

[Supplement Four]

Just stop already ok. You don't know everything about CT better than anybody and this is one case in point of many you've made the last while.

I'd decided to ignore the issue since there seems to be no convincing you but I started wondering how many people you'd convince that you're right and the rules and a few of us are so very wrong. So I'll probably have to try (no doubt with no luck) to show you that you are the one who has it wrong.

Ouch, Dan! You sound like I'm pissing you off!

In no way was I attempting to do so. It's probably because I was coming across as "superior" on the whole CT knowledge thing. I didn't mean to come across that way at all, so please accept my apologies if I did. I was just honestly shocked at how so many people really didn't know CT as well as they thought they did--people, like yourself, who've been playing the game for years!

And...

Now then, the meat of this post:

Traveller Book 2 - Experience - Weapon Expertise - The rule, and I quote:

"One gun and one blade weapon may be chosen; skill level in each is increased by 1 for the duration of the program. If a weapon is chosen in which the character has a skill level of zero, skill level is increased for that weapon to 1, permanently."

Where you're wrong: The weapon skill level is increased to 1, permanently ONLY UPON COMPLETION OF THE PROGRAM. Notice the bit about "for the duration of the program" that comes before the "permanently", which is specifically applied to skill level of zero cases. It is a qualifier to distinguish the case from if you had skill level greater than zero. Nothing more. Certainly not a free for all instant weapon skill with no training needed.

I hate to do this to you, but, yeah, you're not correct here...and, I do hate to say it, because I consider you a friend, but, I am indeed correct.:devil:

Your "correction" of what I said is not "correct".o:

Keep reading the rules.

The second to last paragraph of the Weapon Expertise training program provides an example of what is intended.

As you did, I will quote the rule:

"For example, Johnson has skills of Foil-0 and Revolver-3, and chooses to practice in these weapons. After successfully making his throw of 8+ for dedication to purpose, his skill levels for these weapons become Foil-1 and Revolver-3 if he does not continue his program of training."

See, the guy made his determination throw. His skills of Foil-0 and Revolver-3 were immediately increased to Foil-1 and Revolver-4. He did not complete the training program, and thus his skills fell. But, the Skill-0 skill remained at Skill-1: Foil-1 and Revolver-3.

Which is exactly what I've posted above...and, unfortunately (because I'm not trying to piss you off), not jiving with your rebuttal to my comments.



Why am I feeling guilty for being correct? Probably because I'm not looking to make a friend mad.

Question for you Dan (and I mean this in the most sincere way): Obviously you thought I was incorrect on this stuff, or you wouldn't have posted. And, I've shown you, in black-n-white, how your perception was false...could I also be correct when I say that maybe...just maybe, you're not recalling the Classic Traveller rules as well as you think you are?

I ask this because it was this type of thing that I noticed. It's the reason I started the thread--to clear up the misconceptions about official Traveller rules. It seems that many people have them (you said yourself that several others have disagreed with me--and, I do know that I am correct about this).

What's clear to me is that I need to try to phrase things a bit differently so that I don't come across as acting "superior". I just care about the game. It is my favorite version of Traveller, after all!

And, I certainly prefer to keep the discussions friendly--especially with other posters, like yourself, that I respect.

 

[far-trader]

Personals first, then the issue...

Ouch, Dan! You sound like I'm pissing you off!

Admittedly yes, a bit.

In no way was I attempting to do so. It's probably because I was coming across as "superior" on the whole CT knowledge thing. I didn't mean to come across that way at all, so please accept my apologies if I did. I was just honestly shocked at how so many people really didn't know CT as well as they thought they did--people, like yourself, who've been playing the game for years!

...

Which is exactly what I've posted above...and, unfortunately (because I'm not trying to piss you off), not jiving with your comments above.



Why am I feeling guilty for being correct? Probably because I'm not looking to make a friend mad.

Apology accepted, no need to feel guilty at all. You believe strongly in your views, I don't, that's all. I still think neither of us is going to convince the other over much but I don't mind debating it. Accept my apology as well for the attitude, I boiled over but it's down to a low simmer now I can be reasoned with again.

Now, on to the issue, and why we were both right

 

[RandyT0001]

Fourth,.....And, also don't forget that EDU cannot be raised higher than INT. So, if EDU is already higher than INT, the character's Experience Limit cannot be changed.

Would you be so kind as to refresh my memory as to where this limitation is located?

 

[Supplement Four]

Now, on to the issue, and why we were both right

But...but, we can't both be right!

You said that the Skill-0 permanent increase comes after completion of the program.

The example I quoted from the book specfically states that the Skill-1 permanent increase happens immediately and sticks even if the program is not completed!

There's no way we can both be right.

 

[far-trader]

I hate to do this to you, but, yeah, you're not correct here...and, I do hate to say it, because I consider you a friend, but, I am indeed correct.:devil:

Your "correction" of what I said is not "correct".o:

Keep reading the rules.

The second to last paragraph of the Weapon Expertise training program provides an example of what is intended.

As you did, I will quote the rule:

"For example, Johnson has skills of Foil-0 and Revolver-3, and chooses to practice in these weapons. After successfully making his throw of 8+ for dedication to purpose, his skill levels for these weapons become Foil-1 and Revolver-3 if he does not continue his program of training."

See, the guy made his determination throw. His skills of Foil-0 and Revolver-3 were immediately increased to Foil-1 and Revolver-4. He did not complete the training program, and thus his skills fell. But, the Skill-0 skill remained at Skill-1: Foil-1 and Revolver-3.

Well blow me down with a feather. Though it's no wonder I ignored that bit in TTB (and I had to go looking because I knew it wasn't that way in Book 2).

Yep, huge difference there. TTB above contradicts Book 2 in no uncertain terms:

Same example, different clarification...

"For example, Johnson has skills of Foil-0 and Revolver-3, and chooses to practice in these weapons. After successfully making his throw of 8+ for dedication to purpose, his skill levels for these weapons become Foil-1 and Revolver-3 at the end of the program."

Only the bold in the two is different, but boy howdy what a difference!

As I said I probably promptly forgot and ignored the TTB version because it's far too generous and open to abuse. That way does lead to the weapon skill a day scenario as long as the character makes the dedication throws. At the very least with a little luck (make one dedication throw then fail the next) you can expect to get 2 level 0 weapon skills up to level 1 permanently each year with no investment in actual training.

Roll dedication, bump two weapons to skill 1, drop program and keep the skill 1 levels permanently. Roll a dedication throw again (no 1 year wait since you didn't fail the roll) but fail and have to wait a year to try again.

Or just do the weapon one first, drop it, then try for the physical program. Then you'd have 3 physical boosts and 2 weapon boosts in 4 years. Quite a bit more than the 1 or 2 skills per term of CT.

 

[Supplement Four]

Would you be so kind as to refresh my memory as to where this limitation is located?

Yessir, I will. This rule was added later in Classic Traveller evolution, thus, you might not find it in Book 1, depending on when yours was printed. But, you will find it in later Books (I'm pretty sure Book 5 states it), and typically, the Alien Books feature it. The rule was even carried on to MegaTraveller.

I default to the Traveller Book since it's one of the most up-to-date, corrected, and latest versions of the Classic Traveller rules.

In the TB, you'll find that rule on page 29, under the heading Maximum Skills.

The rule simply states that a character cannot have any more skills or skill levels than the sum of the character's INT + EDU. Skill-0 skills are exempt from calculating against the Experience Limit.

This character: 77894A would be limited to...

...a maximum of 13 skills (excluding Skill-0 skills).

...and a maximum of 13 skill levels (excluding Skill-0 skills).



Thus, if the character had 13 skills, they'd all have to be at Skill-1, or the character would have to lower some skill levels.

Or, if the character's total skill levels exceeded 13, but the total number of skills were less than 13, the character would still have to reduce some skill levels in order to meet his Experience Limit.



The only way to increase a character's Experience Limit after chargen is complete is to use the Experience Rules to increase the character's EDU score. Note, however, that a character's EDU score can never be raised higher than the character's INT score.

Thus, if the character's EDU is already higher than his INT score coming out of chargen, the character's Experience Limit cannot be raised.

 

[far-trader]

Ah, post script editing, lucky I noticed it

...Question for you Dan (and I mean this in the most sincere way): Obviously you thought I was incorrect on this stuff, or you wouldn't have posted. And, I've shown you, in black-n-white, how your perception was false...could I also be correct when I say that maybe...just maybe, you're not recalling the Classic Traveller rules as well as you think you are?

Nope*. The problem is definitions of what is CT over various editions. Someone mentioned this elsewhere, might even have been you, I don't recall.

EDIT: My own p.s. clarification - Nope to both, in this case. My perception was correct also, from my own black and white, and my recall was also correct, in this case. Both dependent on the source, which was different in a significant way.

When I speak of CT I speak of Books 1-3 (2nd printing, the first printing had some differences but were fewer in circulation so the differences are mostly anomolys, though interesting for the differences).

Books 4-8 are CT+. Anything else (TTB for example) is more like CT revised (and I don't agree with all the revisions). Supplements and Adventures are entirely optional imo and outside the scope of "rules" questions. CT is meant to be taken as a starting point and built on by the ref. That's what I see the Supplements and Adventures as, and no two refs would do them the same way. And don't get me started on TTA :smirk:

So your project could be doomed to pointless bickering on points that differ in editions Or we could turn it to noting the differences and commenting on which works better and why in our respective collective opinions. Or something like that.

Not sure that really answers or clears it up much but I'm all for friendly debate on any point of Traveller in any edition.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

In general, one thing to bear in mind:

As Marc himself says somewhere in the LBBs, the rules were intended as guidelines. And people took them that way. Funnily enough, that's not to say that everyone played a totally different Traveller game, though.

When we played AD&D we used weapon vs. armor but not weapon speed, even though both were part of the rules. We felt w v. a was tolerable and useful but weapon speed was simply too clunky. When I discovered teh interweb and compared notes with people it turned out the vast majority did the exact same thing.

So, house rules can develop independently yet in sync. The same seems true for the Traveller experience rules, which many or most people never used and so can't quote chapter and verse.

(And I still think that's because they're impractical in gameplay. Realistic, sure, but impractical.)

PS: I agree with f-t: to me CT is Books 1-3.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well blow me down with a feather. Though it's no wonder I ignored that bit in TTB (and I had to go looking because I knew it wasn't that way in Book 2).

Yep, huge difference there. TTB above contradicts Book 2 in no uncertain terms:

Same example, different clarification...

"For example, Johnson has skills of Foil-0 and Revolver-3, and chooses to practice in these weapons. After successfully making his throw of 8+ for dedication to purpose, his skill levels for these weapons become Foil-1 and Revolver-3 at the end of the program."

Well...well...we are both correct!!

Wow. What a big difference! Incredible!

I tend to default to the Traveller Book because it's the latest version of the rules. And, for that reason, I'd argue that TTB supercedes earlier versions of the rules (I mean, not many people argue that 1st edition weapon damage listings should be used, right!). But, boy-howdy! That's a hell of a discrepency, ain't it?

That way does lead to the weapon skill a day scenario as long as the character makes the dedication throws.

Not quite "a day". The determination throw can be attempted but once per game year. And, at a 42% chance of success, it is unlikely training will be allowed every year.

Note that a character cannot throw for determination for a Weapons program, fail, and then immediately attempt a different program. The maximum number of times the determination throw can be thrown is once per year--and the determination throw is required for each type of training program. Thus, an attempt at training, under Bk 2/TTB, can only be attempted once per game year.

 

[Supplement Four]

So your project could be doomed to pointless bickering on points that differ in editions

Don't want that!!o:

Or we could turn it to noting the differences and commenting on which works better and why in our respective collective opinions.

Good, healthy, friendly, dialogue sounds much better!