What's in a fleet?

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

No. Two ships together form a division. One or more divisions form a squadron. Multiple squadrons form a fleet. Fleets are then subdivided by job into task forces.

Squadrons and fleets are more administrative groupings; handling supply, training, repair, and replacements. Task forces do the fighting because they are tailored for the job at hand.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[aramis]

Line is a traditional term for a sub-part of a group. (According the the 1981 ed of the USNA's Naval Science I text). The term is apparently derived form the forming of Age-of-Sail and early Age-of-Steam craft into two or three lines of 3 or more ships for battle.

Traveller has presented monolithic squadrons, and mixed forces groups. Fleets contain squadrons. During the Solomani Rim War, the naval uunit types involved in the siege of terra are Assault Carrier Squadrons, Battle Squadrons, Cruiser Squadrons, Scout Squadrons, and SDB Wings, Transport Squadrons. (Invasion: Earth rulebook and counter mix).
from Inavasion: Earth, page 3:
A squadron represents 2 to 8 large warships, together with their supporting craft. Tuch squadrons comprise the main fighting elements if interstellar fleets.

Rebellion Sourcebook, page 28:
Starships are rarely assigned alone in battle. Instead they are assigned to squadrons which group ships together for mutual support. Squadrons consists of two or more ships of the same type and class, plus any supporting ships which can provide support, escort, or reinforcement. {emphasis mine}

So, Larsen, for traveller purposes, 2 or more ships are in fact a fleet, not a division. (Just because the US Navy does it doesn't mean the rest of the world, let alone Traveller, does it.)

 

[Whipsnade]

Aramis expounded:

"So, Larsen, for traveller purposes, 2 or more ships are in fact a fleet, not a division."


Mr. Aramis,

Fleet or squadron?

"(Just because the US Navy does it doesn't mean the rest of the world, let alone Traveller, does it.)"

Let me see, you quote a US Naval Academy textbook as support for the term 'line' and a few paragraphs later say that USN practice does not apply with regard to 'divisions' and 'squadrons'. Do USN terms apply or not? Which is it?

The use of divisions is not an US-only practice. In fact, it originated with the Royal Navy and was/is used extensively in many other navies. Two ships form a division in the line of battle, each supporting the other. From this practice later evolved the practice of many air forces assigning a lead man and a wing man to operate together. One attacks, the other supports, and either can switch roles as the situation demands it.

Did you notice in that quote describing the make-up of a squadron that the number of vessels usually ranges from 2 to 8? That's one to four 2-ship divisions. Or perhaps some 2-ship divisions with a few 3-ship divisions mixed in, they've been used historically too.

Seeing as Traveller space combat is supposedly 3D, I'd guess air combat practices will be found more useful and pertinent than ancient naval ideas like 'line of battle'.

Yes, squadrons exist in Traveller and they are made up of one or more 2-ship divisions. Fleets exist in Traveller too and they are made up of squadrons. Fleets create task forces out of their assets and then assign those task forces certain jobs. As the jobs and their requirements cahnge, so also can the forces assigned to handle them. It is in this manner that the assets available to a fleet commander can be used most effectively.


Sincerely,
Larsen

P.S. May I tell you how much I've enjoyed your Dorm Rules? They are quite a nice set of minis rules. Have you ever thought of linking them at the Freewargamesrules.co.uk site? It's a very nice site containing lots of rules like yours that are available on line.

 

[aramis]

Sorry. Typo. Squadron, as per the quote.

I explained the origin of the term, citing a hostorical text, explaining why *I* use it. Not saying it is the right way to do it. I then explain the canonical terms. I typoed.

As for Dorm Rules: Thanks... they were developed for 10mm and 15mm, playable on a dorm room desk... email me with playtest comments, if you would... My friend with the huge collection moved out of town...

 

[Nurd_boy]

ooh,ooh, I know what's in a fleet....

BIG ships, small ships and..and...A WHOLE LOT OF SAILORS THAT HAVEN'T HAD PORT OF CALL IN A VERY LONG TIME !!!!

just imagine the adventure ideas that could surface when its 'fleet week'.....

 

[mike wightman]

There are several good resources for ships in Traveller fleets that have not been mentioned yet (unless I missed them ).
The Spinward Marches Campaign has some useful background on an Imperial Squadron, and the T4 Imperial Squadrons book has some good stuff hidden in it IMHO.

 

[kafka47]

Wouldn't the size of a particular fleet also be subject to the location of the fleet. For instance, in M1000, the Spinward Marches might be less guarded than the Rim where a major war is being fought.

Conversely, the Rim would have strong battle fleets securing the mains toward Capital whilst engaging in the pincer movement that ultimately won the War?

Likewise, it might be just a perception (to be confirmed once I get my grubby hands on the Gateway sourcebook) but isn't the Imperial presence spread rather thin in the Trailing sectors?

Also, we could see the build up of certain fleets along the lines of historical development...for instance, we might witnessing a military build-up in Illiesh but Massilia seeing a general reversion to more building up infrastructure. Different archdukes persuing their own means to gain dominance within the Court...

 

[Whipsnade]

Aramis wrote:

"Sorry. Typo."

Mr. Aramis,

No problem. I assumed as much and wrote my reply with the assumption in mind. As for typos, read some of my posts if you want see some bad ones!

"I explained the origin of the term..." [snip of further explanation]

The more I read this thread, the more I realize that we're on the same 'side' of the 'argument' - if the terms 'side' and 'argument' should even be used in this regard.

The Imperial Navy in both our TUs use squadrons and fleets. Because I'm both a naval crank and anal retentive, I add two additonal operational groupings; divisions and task forces. I have my reasons for using them, many others have their reasons for not using, and it really makes no difference at all!

"As for Dorm Rules: Thanks... they were developed for 10mm and 15mm, playable on a dorm room desk..."

Great idea. Minis can take up so much room, both in storage and play space. Besides, I paint so poorly and slowly that 10mm hides my decided lack of artistic talent.

"... email me with playtest comments, if you would..."

No promises, but I'll try. Most of my 10-15mm stuff is modern; tanks and such. I'm slowly putting together a couple DBM armies and was very happy to find you rule set. Using it, I could play with my fantasy/pregunpowder figs without having the amount required for a DBM match-up.

Check out that site I mentioned, great free rules in a huge number of genres.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[belter]

I'd like to add that including a Marine unit with a battlegroup is another way to allow players to become involved in a personal way with naval combat - boarding actions, planetary assaults, mutinies . . .

 

[BetterThanLife]

Nobody in their right mind would attempt boarding actions in the middle of a fleet action. (Of course I didn't say Jarheads were in their right mind in the first place.) Boarding Torpedos anyone?

Originally posted by belter:
I'd like to add that including a Marine unit with a battlegroup is another way to allow players to become involved in a personal way with naval combat - boarding actions, planetary assaults, mutinies . . .

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Boarding Torpedos anyone?

Unfortunately due to budgetary constraints and legal issues Research Programs X-3m-MkI and X-3m-MkII have been discontinued.

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Boarding Torpedos anyone?

Unfortunately due to budgetary constraints and legal issues Research Programs X-3m-MkI and X-3m-MkII have been discontinued. </font>[/QUOTE]In related news, the Mk3a Lawyer Insertion Torpedo was recently declared illegal for use within the boundaries of the Imperium since the Imperial Navy considered it a violation of the Imperial Rules of War.

Ron

 

[kliner]

Imperial Fleets

I have designed a bunch of imperial fleets for the traveller wiki, and welcome feedback on how messed up they might be.

 

[Reynard]

Check out Third Imperium's Sector Fleet supplement which describes fleet organization in detail for the OTU and lists all the fleets in the Imperial side of the Spinward Marches down to every ship type in each squadron and flotilla for sector fleet, subsector fleet and colonial asset.