When a star goes nova...

[Spinward Scout]

Hi Everybody!

I have a bit of a problem I'm trying to work out. What happens when a star in a nearby system goes nova? How do you handle it? Has it ever occured in your game before? The problem is this. Photons move at the speed of light. I assume gravitons (what I would think densitometers detect) would do the same. So, I go to jump to a system, and BOOM! One week later, I come out in a system devoid of a main star and possibly any gas giants. No place to refuel, no place to land - unless there is an outpost in the Oort Cloud or something that somehow survived the calamity.

But my navigator didn't detect it because...

The nova took place at least 3.26 light years away (i.e. 1 parsec). Which also means that any way of detecting this would take 3.26 years or more, am I still correct? Or are there sensor technologies at TL 14 or 15 that can detect something in current time - bypassing Einsteinian physics (not 3.26 years earlier). And the character's ship will be coming from Algine which is 4 parsecs away from the nova, too, but it'll be multiple jumps.

Before a discussion starts on the fact that a civilization would know millenia in advance if a star is going to go nova, I need to say that my villain is going to destroy Regina's main star, Lusor (along with others in the Spinward Marches) Also, would this effect the companion star, Darida, in the system? Gravitationally? In other ways? Would a nova induce flares in the other star? And would the gas giants around the companion star still be intact and usable for refueling? Would it induce a misjump if jumping out of system in its area of effect? Disrupt comunications? Would sensor equipment be affected?

And does anyone know where I might be able to find what the effects of the Darrian Star Trigger are? All I know is that it created solar flares that wiped out the electronics on the Darrian homeworld. I would think it would affect other nearby star systems as well.

If anyone is wondering, my villian has gotten his hands on a variation of the Darrian Star Trigger and has applied some Ancient technology to create a Star Killer bomb. I got the idea from the Book of Revelations in the Bible "...and the dragon's tail swept a third of the stars from heavens and cast them to the earth". Yes, it's incredibly Space Opera, but my gamers are D&D types and wouldn't be happy with a "just jaunt from world to world" type of game. They'd think it would be like going to Wisconsin or something.

Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated,

Scout

 

[Anthony]

Frankly, if you've got a space opera device, arguing about what it would really do is a bit pointless. In the case of an actual supernova, the gas cloud remains immensely bright for months, so the likely result is that the ship gets instantly vaporized on exit. Any lesser blast wouldn't destroy gas giants, and would probably still be bright enough after a week or two to destroy ships in a short time (though ships with excess fuel could jump back out, or hide behind a planet if nearby).

The original Star Trigger produced some weird wave that fried electronics at parsecs and didn't melt the world of Darrian down to bedrock; if it's really based on a similar device, a likely result is that the ship is intact but has all of its electronics fried permanently.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Actually, any Ancient Artifact is most likely going to be some kind of Space Opera device. And I'm basing it on Ancient tech and I'd like to extrapolate from the Darrian device, if possible.

Thanks,

Scout

 

[Tanuki]

Well, novas and supernovas are very different critters. Supernovas only occur with very massive stars that are unlikely to be around long enough for life-bearing planets to occur.

And virtually all novas occur in close binary systems where one star has become a neutron star. Hydrogen infall builds up on the surface of the neutron star until there's enough pressure to ignite it and then it goes off -- an immense fusion bomb in a shell around the neutron star. Afterwards more hydrogen is collected on the surface of the neutron star until it does it again, in 50 or 200 or a thousand years.

But if you're talking ancients technology and space opera star killers, all bets are off.

One possibile handwave is to use gravitics. Build a device that packs an intense gravitatonal generator into a stasis shell. Drop that into a star, turn it on, and once it's acquired a significant amount of mass from the star, detonate the device. With the central gravity gone, all that densely compacted matter now blows outward in an immense flare. Whether it's enough to tear the star apart depends on how much mass it's gathered and how much rebound there is when the gravity disappears.

With a powerful enough gravity generator you could make a modest-sized star do a mini-supernova. Of course the generator has to withstand the gravity it generates for at least a few minutes -- that's where the ancients' tech comes in.

 

[Drakon]

Also, would this effect the companion star, Darida, in the system? Gravitationally? In other ways? Would a nova induce flares in the other star? And would the gas giants around the companion star still be intact and usable for refueling? Would it induce a misjump if jumping out of system in its area of effect? Disrupt comunications? Would sensor equipment be affected?

Okay, the bits I have gleaned, and standard disclaimer applies (your mileage may vary)

When a star goes supernova, one of the things you have to worry about is not just the gamma radiation, expanding ball of gas, but also neutrinos as well. A nova will sterilize planets out to about 10 parsecs in radius. It will take about 32 years after the blast for these effects to take place, but any life bearing planet will not be after the shell passes through it.

There may be some atmospheric effects, gamma heating of the atmosphere, that could literally strip the gas from any rocky body. I don't think this will prove detrimental to gas giants, as there is a time issue involved, as the expanding shell spends only a brief time in contact, even with a large planet.

Note that the gamma/neutrino sphere will expand at very close to the speed of light, far faster than the gas cloud. The luminesent gas will be a minor problem in and of itself. (And due to the creation of heavier than Iron elements in a supernova, plus creation of rare isotopes of other elements, this might actually be useful for your heros.)

So, small bodies will be severly damaged, sterilized of all (unshielded) life and possibly atmospheres. Gas Giants should fair better. And, in the gas cloud, you may see the formation of heavy metal asteroids in a few years, as the heavier than Iron elements accrete.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Ouch! 10 parsecs. I wasn't expecting that. Does the same thing happen when a star becomes a star? Like Jupiter in the movie 2010 - when it turns into Lucifer? What could really happen to Earth if Jupiter gained a critical mass?

Ok, I think I'll be revising the bomb a little bit. I'm not quite ready to do that to the Spinward Marches. I like that gravitic idea. Awesome stuff!

Thanks Everybody!

Scout

 

[Hecateus]

A supernova can be predicted based on it's behaviour prior to boomtime. It starts contracting and expanding rapidly IIRC even years prior. At even 6 parsecs, you would notice a really big bright star doing this.

 

[Anthony]

Any star which was going to go supernova is going to be a supergiant first. Beyond that, we don't yet know too much about what pre-supernova stars look like, though we have theories. For those who are subscribed to jtas, there was at one point a colossal thread looking at the effects of Antares deciding to blow up (Antares _is_ a prime supernova candidate); I let my subscription lapse so I have no idea what the current status of the thread is.

The effects of Star Trigger-like superflares are anyone's guess. Depending on how bright, it would be unlikely to destroy planets, but could be bright enough to completely destroy the biosphere of habitable worlds. Such flares probably last for a while; if you were to jump into a system while flare activity was going on your ship would probably be in trouble. It wouldn't have any direct effects outside of the system which was destroyed.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Hecateus:
A supernova can be predicted based on it's behaviour prior to boomtime. It starts contracting and expanding rapidly IIRC even years prior. At even 6 parsecs, you would notice a really big bright star doing this.

And I expect the IISS has research ships keeping a close eye on all such candidates, ready to jump out to spread the word if things look bad.

Of course this won't help much if a device is used to induce such a catastrophe in a normal sun. Still I think there'd be a chance of some ships escaping. Being far enough away to jump before the gas/blast wave hits, after surviving the radiation effects by being on the far side of something big. Perhaps while skimming a gas giant, and hence within the protective massive magnetic field.

They would probably witness a phenomanal aurora and maybe see some other ships higher in orbit die. Once clear with the radiation shell expanding outward they would look back to the sun and see a very rapidly expanding glow.

Of course you could even make the emergency jump out more interesting as part way into the jump they cross the radiation shell threashold. Maybe a misjump, or some electronic frying, or a spooky encounter with a jumpspace creature as the two dimensions merge briefly (I'm picturing a two (or three if it also has time) dimensional creature, which in the three (actually four) would be nothing more than a shadow. Hard for the PC's to deal with but a serious threat to them, if it wants to be. Of course with no time reference (if desired, truly just two dimensional) it would be really alien, and really lost.

Anyway this is starting to drift off topic but you may have inspired me to delve into some really nasty stuff for an adventure an I hope I've returned the favour with a couple idea sparks of my own. Have fun <eg>

 

[Whipsnade]

Anthony wrote:

"For those who are subscribed to jtas, there was at one point a colossal thread looking at the effects of Antares deciding to blow up (Antares _is_ a prime supernova candidate); I let my subscription lapse so I have no idea what the current status of the thread is."


Sir,

I too let my JTAS subscription lapse but not before the 'Antares Boom' thread had dwindled almost to a close. Mr. Paul Drye has put together a 'Boom Bible' for anyone wanting to write about or use the Antares Boom. IIRC, the idea was that the 'bible' would allow many different authors to all submit materials to JTAS as part of an Antares Supenova theme issue. The last time I checked with Mr. Drye (early September IIRC), he had submitted the bible to Mr. Zeigler, the JTAS editor, for comment and had not heard back.

The JTAS thread was full of crunchy nova goodness researched and presented by Dr. Constatine Thomas (Evil Dr. Ganymede here at CotI) and other physics boffins. I do know that most of the details regarding the supernova were specific to Antares itself; i.e. timing of the various neutrino pulse precursors, size of the ejecta shell, luminosity increases, etc. How much of the specific Antares supernova data could be transposed to a nova involving another star is questionable.

"The effects of Star Trigger-like superflares are anyone's guess."

The Maghiz is another kettle of fish entirely. It is pretty much accepted throughout Our Hobby that the flares produced there did not travel parsecs of distance and slag electronics and gravitics on worlds years away. That story is just another bit of DGP goofiness which has been relegated to the catagorey of 57th Century 'common knowledge'. Your average Eneri on the street will 'know' the the Maghiz 'destroyed' the Confederation, if he knows about the Darrians at all. What Eneri will not know is that the Maghiz destroyed the Confederation by severely damaging the industrial, research & development, and cultural heart of the Confederation; the planet Darrian itself. The other Confederation worlds could simply not carry on without Darrian and the Confederation fell into darkness.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Andrew Boulton]

There's a map of the effects of the Maghiz here:

http://www.netflames-rpg-bunker.us/Gaming/Daryen/daryenimages/daryen12.jpg

 

[daryen]

We know what has been published about the Maghiz. Larsen's point is that it is impossible, even accounting for the "space opera" effect. There is nothing that Tarnis could have put out that would have "disrupted" electronics parsecs away.

While the flares most likely did destroy electronics in the Darrian system, and did nearly sterilize Darrian itself, those effects almost certainly did not leave Tarnis' Oort field.

What most likely really happened, again as Larsen points out, is simply that with Darrian's destruction, its colonies were not able to support the level of technology necessary for an interstellar government. Basically, they were dropped to TL 3 after only a few decades.

 

[kaladorn]

What might have been a more interesting Maghiz:

We know Jumpspace is (at times, like when a ship jumps) coincident with normal space-time. We know it has temporal effects. We also know it is affected by large masses. Imagine some sort of solar gravitational event large enough to send shockwaves through jumpspace.... that would have canned interstellar commerce in the Confederation.... and perhaps it would have taken years or decades for jumpspace to 'settle out' and during that time ships that jumped in that area would either blow up or suffer large position or temporal uncertainties. Some might just disappear.

This might have been a bit more interesting and less.... of a stretch, at least insofar as it makes use of the existing relation between jumpspace and mass/gravity and doesn't abuse what we know about stellar flares.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Sweet! Jumpspace distortion. Ah, the ideas are flowing... Keep 'em coming!

Thanks!

Scout

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
We know Jumpspace is (at times, like when a ship jumps) coincident with normal space-time. We know it has temporal effects. We also know it is affected by large masses. Imagine some sort of solar gravitational event large enough to send shockwaves through jumpspace.... that would have canned interstellar commerce in the Confederation.... and perhaps it would have taken years or decades for jumpspace to 'settle out' and during that time ships that jumped in that area would either blow up or suffer large position or temporal uncertainties. Some might just disappear.

Sounds kinda like my Empress Wave theory, though something on that scale would probably have to be caused by two massive black holes merging or something like that...

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
though something on that scale would probably have to be caused by two massive black holes merging or something like that...

Not necessarily.

Depends a lot of the rules of physics and energy in the space that we call Jumpspace.

Let us say the Star Trigger was, hypothetically, a device which ended up channeling the power of some uber solar flare (probably quite a bit of power) into jumpspace. Depending on the sensitivity of this space (it might not be very stable, its geometry might be anything but linear), disruptions may happen rather easily and may extend for a long long distance (in realspace).

So, I'm not sure that the power level you are suggesting is necessary. We don't really know how stable jumpspace is - I'd suggest the misjump effects may suggest that it *isn't* all that stable.

 

[Whipsnade]

kaladorn wrote re jump space distortions caused by the Maghiz:

"This might have been a bit more interesting and less.... of a stretch, at least insofar as it makes use of the existing relation between jumpspace and mass/gravity and doesn't abuse what we know about stellar flares."


Mr. Barclay,

I like this idea, it neatly solves a lot of the canonical problems with the Maghiz, and something very similar occured IMTU. Whether the idea can be sold to the Self Important and Self Appointed Loyal Legion of Kanon Kops is another problem however. Believe me in this respect; you should have seen the blood on the bulkheads when I proposed a simple 'fix' for the wildly implausible Interstellar War period.(1) (shudder)

CT's Darrian Alien Module; IIRC, the last CT Alien module and mostly written by DG "We Never Quit Our Day Jobs" P, has enough of the Darrian fleet of jumpships surviving the Maghiz that they were eventually parceled out among the colony worlds. Some worlds were able to use their ships after a fashion and others simply mothballed their ships somewhere in their outer systems.

Mire is said to have examined it's mothballed collection and realized that they had the ability to repair them or build new jump ships from scratch. That event marked the rebirth of the Confederation. Also, the much vaunted, and totally bogus, Darrian TL16 combat squadron is a collection of these ancient mothballed vessels.

IMHO, a jump space distortion which damaged or scattered most of Darrian's FTL shipping capacity fits neatly with this idea. Thanks to 'Beltstrike', 'Tarsus', and a few other mentions in canonical library data, we know that various Darrian outposts were left to die - with some lasting as long as three generations before failing. If the Confederation had any real FTL capability left after the Maghiz, you'd think these scattered outposts would have rescued, if only for the skills their staffs possessed. Instead, thanks to your idea of a Maghiz-induced jump space distortions, the risk of losing what few jump ships were left was too great when balanced against the succor of those distant outposts and their staffs.

It's neat, it's nifty, and it has no chance whatsoever.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - The major complaint with my suggestions regarding the IW period boiled to the mistaken perception that some bad, old, grey-headed, fat man wanted to take everyone's "Terra Uber Alles Sooper-Dooper Action Figures" away. Granted the Terran Confederation's purported accomplishments would make for a nifty T20 'feat'; Conquer and Swallow Whole an Entire Empire from One World. Hmmm, it could either be a 'feat' or a 'wand' or a 'potion' or a 'class...

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:

IMHO, a jump space distortion which damaged or scattered most of Darrian's FTL shipping capacity fits neatly with this idea. Thanks to 'Beltstrike', 'Tarsus', and a few other mentions in canonical library data, we know that various Darrian outposts were left to die - with some lasting as long as three generations before failing. If the Confederation had any real FTL capability left after the Maghiz, you'd think these scattered outposts would have rescued, if only for the skills their staffs possessed. Instead, thanks to your idea of a Maghiz-induced jump space distortions, the risk of losing what few jump ships were left was too great when balanced against the succor of those distant outposts and their staffs.

It's neat, it's nifty, and it has no chance whatsoever.

While I like it (and couldn't care less about any canon minutae it tramples on when it comes to Darrian history - it's close enough for me), it does concern me for another reason - for this effect to kill the whole civilization so fast it can't bring the outlying colonies back in it has to be FTL - and that makes it an FTL comms system once it's 'tamed'. It may be many TLs above the maximum the Imperium ever made, but it's still there, and IMO (and many others apparently) 'no FTL comms' is a fundamental part of Traveller.

 

[Anthony]

No FTL comms at TLs accessible to the Imperium, or any faster than a ship, is the main restriction.

 

[kaladorn]

The process may not be tameable. I say that because some inherently chaotic processes may not allow their use as media for communications.

Or, conversely, at some higher TL, it may be FTL comms-able. But so? At some point, the OTU has matter transmitter portals which individuals and starships can use and my impression is that these are instantaneous. So by that time, FTL comms might make sense.

And perhaps, due to the non-Euclidian (? I forget this might not be the right term) geometry of jumpspace and its odd energistic construction, perhaps such a phenom, FTL though it may be (if I can use Jumpsace to get someplace FTL, a Jumpspace phenom can propagate FTL), might be what eventually opens the door to these matter transmitters. Maybe the effect pulls together different spaces - Jumpspace (where it takes a week to get there) and several higher/other spaces that take less time - nearly instant perhaps being the limit. Perhaps in doing so, it utterly futzes up human understandings of Jumpspace, and until the multifold spaces settle back into their correct relationships, ships trying to use it are taking their head in their hands - the drive could blow them up, fling them far away, lose them in time, or just swallow them into some pocket universe, etc.

And perhaps the effect's severity drops off with distance, but was enough at the extents to still make major trips from other Darrian colonies or from any nearby neighbours just too risky.

It's no Wounded Collossus, but it might be less abusive to known physics than the current star trigger explanation.