When a star goes nova...

[daryen]

I don't know, I like the Maghiz explanation that runs along the lines of GT:Humaniti and Larsen's original proposition. The Darrians were not widespread enough to survive the destruction of their homeworld and industrial base. Darrian was the only world that could construct or even maintain the Darrian fleet. Without that, the hi-tech capabilities of the Darrian Confederation quickly disappeared.

The reason I like this explanation is that, besides being a working explanation, it doesn't need all of the technobabble required to explain "jump-flares".

Besides which, whether the Maghiz was confined to the Darrian system or was wide ranging, it is pretty irrefutable that many ships survived the event. Leaving the far-flung colonies to die was pretty heartless, regardless. (I like it, because it is a nice skeleton in their closet.)

The other nice thing is that it lets the Star Trigger become a real threat instead of just a doomsday device.

 

[daryen]

BTW, Larsen, I liked your Interstellar Wars explanation. It did two wonderful things.

First, it took the "known" history and, while not actually changing it, turned it completely on its head. That alone made it great.

Second, it took away the "Terran superheroes" and let the Vilani, while still stupid, not be brainless morons. For things to work the way they are "supposed to", the Vilani have to be so stupid that you have to wonder how they woke up in the morning. To be as stupid as they are required would mean they have no brain activity whatsoever.

 

[Whipsnade]

daryen wrote:

"I don't know, I like the Maghiz explanation that runs along the lines of GT:Humaniti and Larsen's original proposition. The Darrians were not widespread enough to survive the destruction of their homeworld and industrial base. Darrian was the only world that could construct or even maintain the Darrian fleet. Without that, the hi-tech capabilities of the Darrian Confederation quickly disappeared."


Daryen,

I prefer that explanation too, and GT:Humaniti does expand on it in a logical fashion (makes you wonder just who is reading those JTAS posts doesn't it? ) Having most of the Darrian 'colonies'; even those on planets like Mire, more like import-dependent outposts explains the Maghiz neatly. The Darrians; ever interested in research, had plunked down dozens of Admunsen Stations and not dozens of Penn Colonies. After the Maghiz hit, it took years for those stations to learn how to feed themselves and the development of any industrial base was low on the priority list.

The attraction of Maghiz-induced jump space distortion lays more in a desire to project a sense of 57th Century otherworldliness, like iris valves or psionics. You and Mr. Boleyn are quite correct in pointing out that the idea of jump space distortion can be easily 'stretched' to include all sorts of canon-breaking effects. A line must always be drawn, but where to draw it exactly is always up to the individual.

"The reason I like this explanation is that, besides being a working explanation, it doesn't need all of the technobabble required to explain "jump-flares"."

Occam's Razor is always a good thing to apply.

"Leaving the far-flung colonies to die was pretty heartless, regardless. (I like it, because it is a nice skeleton in their closet.)"

I don't like Marble Men either. Everyone should have some warts.

"The other nice thing is that it lets the Star Trigger become a real threat instead of just a doomsday device."

Yup, oddly enough if you make it too powerful it becomes useless! Just like Grandfather's teleportation planet buster from SotA. The Trigger isn't much of a war winning device anyway. All it really promises is you'll die too when the other fellow is pressed enogh to commit suicide.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

daryen wrote:

"BTW, Larsen, I liked your Interstellar Wars explanation."


Daryen,

Well, if the private e-mails I recieved on the subject are in any way an accurate poll, you are in an extremely tiny majority sir!

The general tone and tenor of them may have led a casual observer to believe that I was advocating 1) manadatory pedophilia and 2) assembly line cloning of Adolf Hitler. On the other hand, I did get to learn all sorts of new words.

The story of the IW period does not match the facts. In fact, the story of the period utterly ignores the facts. There must another, deeper, explanation. However, if you threaten to take away the "Terra Uber Alles Action Figures", Our Olde Hobby will react quite savagely.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Spinward Scout]

"Yup, oddly enough if you make it too powerful it becomes useless!"

How so? I'm trying to make the villian's justification for using the Star Killer bomb plausable. Basically, he's turned into a terrorist if he uses it.

I think I'm going to go with a psudo-science explanation for the bomb. Some sort of gravity device (presumable able to withstnad the energies at the center of a star - for at least a small amount of time) partially collapses the star, then when the device is destroyed by its own gravity and the star's collapse, it produces a rubberband effect and a shockwave expands from the center of the star. Not a full nova/supernova effect, but enough that it would probably destroy all life in the system. But also not strong enough to expand out to nearby systems.

How does that sound?

Scout

 

[Anthony]

All a star trigger-type device has to do to be a weapon of mass destruction is to produce around a 10x increase in brightness for a few days. Scale upwards from there, to taste.

Actually destroying a star takes a Ridiculous amount of energy, and isn't much below supernova level; it's probably going to reach nearby systems.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Well, if the private e-mails I recieved on the subject are in any way an accurate poll, you are in an extremely tiny majority sir!

The general tone and tenor of them may have led a casual observer to believe that I was advocating 1) manadatory pedophilia and 2) assembly line cloning of Adolf Hitler. On the other hand, I did get to learn all sorts of new words.

That's a truly sad state of affairs. Humanity never ceases to amaze me. It's a game - it shouldn't generate that. Not much should...

The story of the IW period does not match the facts. In fact, the story of the period utterly ignores the facts. There must another, deeper, explanation. However, if you threaten to take away the "Terra Uber Alles Action Figures", Our Olde Hobby will react quite savagely.

I'm a Terran symp by nature. But I don't like the later incarnations (Solomani Rim Sup 10 was fine, anything past that started to get dodgier and dodgier IMO). I'd like to have some Terrans I could be proud to play and not feel like I needed a shower after every session. But I'd also rather have the Vilani portrayed as sufficiently intelligent to have actually formed and empire once...

And even where thyself and myself disagree, I shall surely not resort to uncivil conduct... that *should* be beneath most gamers.... (yes, I am an idealist)

 

[Spinward Scout]

I've found 2 Sci-Fi sources for what my villain is going to do. The first (and probably the most scientific) is Star Trek: Generations, and the second is the Star Crusher device in one of the Star Wars Expanded Universe novels. Both deal with a device that can destroy a star. Going to watch Generations tonite.

Later,

Scout

 

[TheDS]

The so-called Darrian super flare that hit stuff 30 LY away was an EMP. As we all know, EMPs are really good at frying electronics. All of Darrian space was hit by this thing. All their industry, not just Daryen itself, was affected.

I personally have little difficulty believing a star has enough power to cause an EMP that could be felt 30 LY away, considering that a supernova is capable of outshining its parent galaxy. IIRC, a supernova that went off within about 100 LY of Earth could kill us all with radiation alone. There are supposedly a few candidates that could do this to us, but my apologies for not being able to recall what the source for this is.

As to the alternate Interstellar Wars, does some one have a link or could tell me where to go? I too would like a chance to teach Larsen new words.

Well, your stuff is usually pretty good, and any future in which Humanity is not demonized is one worth considering.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Dameon Toth Detached Scout:
"Yup, oddly enough if you make it too powerful it becomes useless!"

How so? I'm trying to make the villian's justification for using the Star Killer bomb plausable. Basically, he's turned into a terrorist if he uses it.

The problem with the Star Trigger, as written, is that, if you use it to produce an as-described Maghiz effect, you are not only hitting your target, you are crushing everything in a 6 parsec radius around the target. So, for example, if you hit Narsil, you fry Darrian. (Again!) If you hit Sacnoth, you are frying Imperial worlds.

If the effects of the Star Trigger are confined to the targetted star system, it is a much, much more effective weapon as you can now hit *any* world you want without affecting the systems around it.

So, as it is written, the Star Trigger is only effective as a terroristic device of destruction. If limited to a single system it becomes an effective, if brutal, weapon of war.

 

[Whipsnade]

TheDS wrote:

"The so-called Darrian super flare that hit stuff 30 LY away was an EMP. As we all know, EMPs are really good at frying electronics. All of Darrian space was hit by this thing. All their industry, not just Daryen itself, was affected."


Mr. TheDS,

Ahh, but that is where the trouble lays...

If I make the flares big enough to have enough 'oomph' to fry electronics at 30 light-years, than nothing inside the Darrian system survives. And I'm not talking about life when I use the word 'survive', I'm talking about planets.

You see, I've got to rachet up Tarnis' hiccups enough to produce a pulse to do the job at 30 light-years. But that level of energy in those hiccups now means anything a few tens of AUs away is gone, vaporized, dust in the solar wind, insert you favorite metaphor here. Poof - no more planet Darrian, let alone Darrian Confederation.

"As to the alternate Interstellar Wars, does some one have a link or could tell me where to go? I too would like a chance to teach Larsen new words.

Well, your stuff is usually pretty good, and any future in which Humanity is not demonized is one worth considering."

Most of it was on the IW Board at JTAS. A bit can be found in the TML archives, although the year and month escape at the moment.

Summing it all up; the Interstellar War period lasted a little over 180 years, yet in that period Earth:

1 - Developed nonstandard jump1, standard jump1, jump2, and, something the Vilani never did, jump3.
2 - Founded, defended, and grew dozens of widely scattered colonies that eventually 'shouldered most of the war's burden'.
3 - Funded dozens of Manhattan style projects that successfuly developed gravitics, thrusters, meson weaponry, geneered crops and animals, low AI robotics, and a host of other bleeding edge technological advances.
4 - Launched several long range 'bolt hole' colony missions rimward, spinward, and trailing.

And they do all of this while fighting a series of wars in which any major defeat meant subjegation. And they do this all while fighting the Vilani Bureaux; Sharurshid, that had the biggest holdings within the Ziru Sirka. And while Sharurshid was supposedly keeping it all a big secret even with other both of other two Bureaux's territories just a subsector away from Sol to spinward and rimward. Right.

Then, at the end of the period, the Terrans defeat the Ziru Sirka's Central Fleet a little over a subsector from Sol and that one battle somehow meant that the Terrans were now allowed to swallow the First Imperium nearly whole. Right.

Succinctly put, there isn't enough time for the Confederation to do everything they are supposed to do. The claims regarding colonial growth alone are enough to sink the whole story.

Even the various handwaves suggested to help explain all incongruities simply add to the problem. The plague of Duskir(sic) is little but more DGP idiocy not grounded in enough biological reality to make sense at all. Meant to balance the opposing forces on the Rim, the proposals for Vilani population controls (~500 million per world) still produce a 'thin' First Imperium big enough to handle Earth easily. Use all the clones, tube babies, and unterine replicators you want to boost colonial birthrates but those kids still need to be raised, fed, have their nappies changed, taught, and so forth. The list of problems caused by well meaning handwaves goes on and on.

Then there are all the subjugated races within the First Imperium. Prior to their subjugation, the Suerrat had a STL empire over a subsector in size and the Geonee had FTL empire with jump ships. Even the Syleans and Vegans are portrayed as restless. How can the Vilani be competent enough to keep all those races down, yet stupid enough to lose to the Terrans? Again the question of the Central Fleet comes up; why would its defeat mean that the Terrans simply stepped into the Vilani's shoes? Wouldn't the Suerrat, Geonee, Syleans, Vegans, et. al. have simply reasserted their own polities if the Vilani yoke had been broken? Why did the Terrans get to swallow the First Imperium whole? Beat the Central Fleet and all those other races just wait for you, the new boss, to show up. Right.

When I hear the story of the Interstellar Wars, my bullsh*t detector goes off long and loud; "Sure pal! Pull the other one, it's got bells on!" There are just too many whoppers involved.

I think the answer lays with the Vargr. Canon states that the Vilani coreward governors hired and armed the Vargr in order to play power politics among themselves. I think the Rim Vilani tried to do the same thing with the Terrans and the Terrans slipped the leash. It wasn't a conquest by Terrans, it was a dynastic replacement by Terrans.

Of course this means that the bad, old, greyheaded, fat man has taken everyone's 'Terra Uber Alles Action Figures' away. However, it also means that the Interstellar Wars finally make sense.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by TheDS:
The so-called Darrian super flare that hit stuff 30 LY away was an EMP. As we all know, EMPs are really good at frying electronics. All of Darrian space was hit by this thing. All their industry, not just Daryen itself, was affected.

The point I was trying to draw out is that all of their industry is on Darrian itself (and, presumably, elsewhere in its system). As such, whether the effect is confined to the Darrian system, or has the 6 parsec radius, is irrelevant. Once the Darrian system was toast, their interstellar civilization was toast.

BTW, regardless of the effect, the Star Trigger effect does not destroy the star. It "merely" destablizes it for a short period of time, which causes several "mega-flares" to shoot out. The destablization is transient, and the long term effect on the star itself is negligible.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by TheDS:
The so-called Darrian super flare that hit stuff 30 LY away was an EMP. As we all know, EMPs are really good at frying electronics. All of Darrian space was hit by this thing. All their industry, not just Daryen itself, was affected.

The problem is that EMPs aren't _that_ good at frying electronics. If the effect on a world at 1 parsec is equivalent to the EMP from a megaton weapon at 1,000 kilometers, the effect on Darrian is equivalent to the same weapon at a range of 5 meters. Which would destroy all life on Darrian and result in an uninhabitable rockball.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
I think the answer lays with the Vargr. Canon states that the Vilani coreward governors hired and armed the Vargr in order to play power politics among themselves. I think the Rim Vilani tried to do the same thing with the Terrans and the Terrans slipped the leash. It wasn't a conquest by Terrans, it was a dynastic replacement by Terrans.

Of course this means that the bad, old, greyheaded, fat man has taken everyone's 'Terra Uber Alles Action Figures' away. However, it also means that the Interstellar Wars finally make sense.

The part of the massive negative reaction I don't understand is that you don't even change the essense of the scenario. Even in your scenario, the Terrans are still the only ones who succeed in rebelling. They still take over the Imperium. They still win, predominantly on their own. But this way the story can at least pass the "laugh in your face" test.

I was not on the JTAS boards, but was reading TML at the time you posted this and was really surprised at the reaction you got. The Terrans are still "heroes", just not "superheroes".

You know, I am still stunned at the vitriolic reaction you received from the suggestion, especially in comparison to the incredibly restrained and measured responses I got to my Norris question.

Weird.

 

[Whipsnade]

daryen wrote:

"The part of the massive negative reaction I don't understand is that you don't even change the essense of the scenario. Even in your scenario, the Terrans are still the only ones who succeed in rebelling. They still take over the Imperium. They still win, predominantly on their own. But this way the story can at least pass the "laugh in your face" test."


Daryen,

I don't understand it either. As you point out, nothing really changes. All the facts remain the same and all the results remain the same. All that gets tweaked is the story that knits the facts together with the results. Go figure.

All I can guess is that folks have an immense emotional attachment to the idea that the Terran Confederation was populated by supermen. After all, it's the last time Earth is acutally worth a damn in OTU history.

Once the IW period ends, Earth is no longer the capital of the Confederation and soon-to-be RoM. She spends most of the Long Night at the head of a relatively tiny trade union, even failing to maintain any colonies in the Sol system beyond Luna. The early Third Imperium actually avoids contacting her for its first few centuries. She then grows into the chosen home for a bunch of racist, nazi bastards only to become the focal point of a huge and senseless war. The Classic Era sees her as little more than a terrorist's slogan, she's fought over once again in the Rebellion, and gets slagged by Virus like everyone else. Finally, if Harold Hale's CoE setting is taken as gospel (pun intended), the last look we have of Earth in Traveller is as the home of a new crop of religious loonies infused with a crusading jihadist spirit to bring a load of psionic-induced claptrap to the universe of infidels.

It is a pretty shabby role Mother Earth gets to play between the 24th and 58th Centuries. Perhaps that's why my suggestion provoked such a vitriolic response; I took away the only shining moment Earth has in the whole of OTU history.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
She spends most of the Long Night at the head of a relatively tiny trade union, even failing to maintain any colonies in the Sol system beyond Luna.

Actually, I ignore that tidbit. Once colonized and even moderately terraformed, Mars would never be abandoned. The moon would be abandoned first. I figure that if their interstellar capabilities remained, then their intrasystem colonies would chug along just dandy, thank you very much.

It is a pretty shabby role Mother Earth gets to play between the 24th and 58th Centuries. Perhaps that's why my suggestion provoked such a vitriolic response; I took away the only shining moment Earth has in the whole of OTU history.

Of course, you didn't take it away. You just put it in context.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
"Leaving the far-flung colonies to die was pretty heartless, regardless. (I like it, because it is a nice skeleton in their closet.)"

I don't like Marble Men either. Everyone should have some warts.

As an aside on this, another potential skeleton in the closet that is just screaming at me is 494-908. An "892" world is too valuable to not colonize. I am sure the pre-Maghiz Darrians did. I am even willing to bet that when originally colonized, it was an "882" world.

I wonder what could have happened that would give such a large world a significant radioactive taint and make them replace whatever name it had with a non-descript number. Probably something they don't like talking about ...

 

[Whipsnade]

daryen wrote:

"As an aside on this, another potential skeleton in the closet that is just screaming at me is 494-908. An "892" world is too valuable to not colonize. I am sure the pre-Maghiz Darrians did. I am even willing to bet that when originally colonized, it was an "882" world."

"I wonder what could have happened that would give such a large world a significant radioactive taint and make them replace whatever name it had with a non-descript number. Probably something they don't like talking about ..."


Mr. Daryen,

A tip of the battered boater to you, sir! Glad to hear that some else noticed ol' Four-Ninty-Four. In its own way, your brain must come close to the chicanerous thought processes of the Weary Whipsnade Wetware(tm). My aplogies on that!

Take a look at the Maghiz map Mr. Boulton posted. It's from the Darrian CT module and contains a very intriguing note; all the systems with names are the site of Darrian outposts. Among others, there are six future Sword Worlds, Tavonni up in Lanth, Saxe and Gothe in the Sisters, and the ever mysterious Dawnworld next door to my adopted home of Grote. Makes one wonder how many are out there in the GM's preserve of Foreven, yes? What about that system with the Chamax in it? Just when did the native sophonts there suffer that terrible catastrophe and launch their STL ships?

(Cue evil music...)


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[daryen]

That map actually causes a whole host of questions to pop up.

- They had a colony of the Shrieker homeworld.

- They had to have had at least a reasonable number of ships survive the Maghiz. Why did they not use them to at least consolidate colonies to sustainable levels. It can't be because of maintenance, as one big advantage TL16 seems to grant is incredible longlevity to mechanical items.

- Pre-Maghiz they went from TL10 to TL16 in 600 years. But Post-Maghiz they went from TL9 to TL14 in 1400 years. Did the flares make the Darrians stupid, too?

- What's wrong with Winston? It is a (theoretically) very habitable planet. But it has a very low population "today" and the per-Maghiz Darrians totally ignored it.

- They had colonies on 6 future Sword Worlds. Who's to say that the Darrian colonies there didn't consolidate and didn't really "die out" until -400? (Would do a whole lot to explain SW/Darrian animosity.)

There are others, too. The more I look at it, the more I come to the conclusion that the pre-Maghiz Darrians and the "modern" Darrians were effectively different peoples. (And that the "modern" Darrians really don't know that.)

As for Foreven, with it being a "referee's perserve" no one can really say boo about it. It is quite likely the Darrians have some colony worlds out there in the "modern" era and have had long term conflict with the Avalars. But no one can ever say for fear of "violating" the "referee's perserve".

 

[Whipsnade]

daryen wrote:

"That map actually causes a whole host of questions to pop up."


Mr. Daryen,

Doesn't it now! I've been wrestling with it ever since AM8 came out.

"They had a colony of the Shrieker homeworld."

Check the Shrieker civilization timeline in GT's Denuli book versus the time the TL16 Darrians were active. What were the Darrians doing there and why don't the Shriekers remember them? After all, they remember that scout from the 400s(?).

"They had to have had at least a reasonable number of ships survive the Maghiz. Why did they not use them to at least consolidate colonies to sustainable levels. It can't be because of maintenance, as one big advantage TL16 seems to grant is incredible longlevity to mechanical items."

I think most of their shipping was either caught by the Maghiz in the Darrian system or jumped in soon after only to get damaged by the ejecta streaming about. It isn't as if the Darrians had a Ghoul Patrol in place to warn of stellar upsets.

Also, the TL16 ships operating in the 1100s are the ones that lasted. Other TL16 ships may have survived only to fail over the enuing decades. We're assuming long-lived TL16 tech because our only sample is a clutch of TL16 ships that happened to last a long time. That's like assuming all cats have crossed blue eyes after examining only siamese. The sample is too small and too skewed to be of any real service.

"Pre-Maghiz they went from TL10 to TL16 in 600 years. But Post-Maghiz they went from TL9 to TL14 in 1400 years. Did the flares make the Darrians stupid, too?"

That could very well be. Something like over 95% of the Darrian's population and nearly that much of the Confederation's population died in the Maghiz or its aftermath. The Darrians didn't have the same off-world presence they have in 1100. Kill off 95% of Earth's current population in an essentialy random manner. You only have 50 million Chinese, 50 million Indians, maybe 50 million North Americans and Europeans, and 50 million 3rd Worlders. All of them have just seen their planet die and all need to be fed. Oddly enough, the more primitive the survivors, the better chance they have of surviving. The pockets in Subsaharan Africa and South Asia may thrive while those in Europe and America die out. How fast do you think Earth will get back to TL8 or 9 after that?

"What's wrong with Winston? It is a (theoretically) very habitable planet. But it has a very low population "today" and the per-Maghiz Darrians totally ignored it."

First, no real Darrian colonies beyond Mire, lo tech Rorre, and a few others. The Darrians of the time had an Astrographic mapping service, not a Colonial Office. Almost all of the settlements we see on the map are science stations or resource extraction efforts and not New Zlodh City.

Second, Winston is said to have a 'more Earth-like' biosphere and weather activity than Darrian. Winston is also deep within its primary's jump exclusion zone, plus having a secondary star and lone gas giant orbiting about too. My take on it is that Winston is 'hard' to get to and uncomfortable for Darrians to settle. The population on Winston settled there post-Maghiz and pre-Collapse. They were predominately refugees from Entrope and Torment, dumped on world hopefully to survive before the ships wore out.

Want another Darrian point to ponder? Look at Entrope and compare its population to the two Confederations that have fought over it for 600 years. Did the Darrians and Swords really 'conquer' Entrope all those times? Or did Entrope merely change sides?

"They had colonies on 6 future Sword Worlds. Who's to say that the Darrian colonies there didn't consolidate and didn't really "die out" until -400? (Would do a whole lot to explain SW/Darrian animosity.)"

Very good. Hopefully Mr. Paul Drye added that bit to his GT Sword Worlds book. Or his collaborater, Mr. Rancke-Madsen, remembered to do so. I hope someone remembered to look at the map and wonder...

"There are others, too. The more I look at it, the more I come to the conclusion that the pre-Maghiz Darrians and the "modern" Darrians were effectively different peoples. (And that the "modern" Darrians really don't know that.)"

Again, an excellent point. Glad to hear someone else thinks just as oddly as I do. Look at those Maghiz mortality figures again and kill off +95% of Earth's population randomly. What sort of civilization would arise after such a calamity if the only remaining pockets of people were New Guineau highlanders? Residents of Hokkaido? Down East Mainers? Laplanders? Residents of Belem in Brazil? Hopis? Just imagine...

Remember, Foreven is 'officially' off-limits. Nothing stops you or I from producing and sharing IMTU materials set there. (hint-hint-hint)


Sincerely,
Larsen