When a star goes nova...

[kaladorn]

Have to say I think Larsen hit one bit on the head - if you kill off that many people, perhaps destroy facilities like universities, and maybe lose a lot of your 'intelligentsia', you may well take longer to pick back up. There may also be psychological factors that alter your cultures perspectives on progress and science and serve to inhibit growth (think 'Greeners' but on a larger scale)

I think an interesting TU might be one where you had a list of planets, the starting points of various races, and some random chance of them developing jump. Then, run a computer sim. The sim would track population movements based on things like the desireability of moving to a place (how similar is it to your native or ideal biosphere, does it have at least minimal pop and tech but less than enough to cause overcrowding, etc).

Then you *might* get a reasonable layout of population wrt UWPs and then trade and x-boat routes could be laid on top sensibly.

But that would be a far cry from the OTU.

 

[Whipsnade]

kaladorn wrote:

"I think an interesting TU might be one where you had a list of planets, the starting points of various races, and some random chance of them developing jump. Then, run a computer sim. The sim would track population movements based on things like the desireability of moving to a place (how similar is it to your native or ideal biosphere, does it have at least minimal pop and tech but less than enough to cause overcrowding, etc)."


Mr. Barclay,

MT's 'Hard Times' with it's 'devolving' rules got a lot of people thinking in that way. There's the whole idea of MSRP now with population being tied to atmo, hydro, and bio spheres instead of merely being a 'raw' 2D6 roll.

A computer sim; perhaps like SciAm's Life Game, would be very interesting. You could factor in jump ratings, planetary types, plain old vanilla population growth rates, trade routes, lot and lots of factors. A neat twist may be the inclusion of 'special' resources, an aspect of an otherwise marginal system that may spark faster growth or even settlement in the first place; i.e. Hellhole IV has the only naturally occuring supply of cocktail umbrellas so it gets settled regardless of local conditions.

"Then you *might* get a reasonable layout of population wrt UWPs and then trade and x-boat routes could be laid on top sensibly."

IIRC, Mr. Chris Thrash has done this to some extent.

"But that would be a far cry from the OTU."

Oh Ghods Yes! And it's not only the Third Imperium. Look at the Ziru Sirka if you want to scratch your head. Why are the Vilani on Barnard; four SECTORS rimward of Vland, but on only a few systems in Corridor; just two subsectors from Vland? The old excuse about 3 parsec gaps doesn't hold water, CT's AotI and MT's V&V dotmaps show plenty 3 parsec gaps throughout the regions where the Ziru Sirka operated.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

kaladorn wrote:

"Have to say I think Larsen hit one bit on the head - if you kill off that many people, perhaps destroy facilities like universities, and maybe lose a lot of your 'intelligentsia', you may well take longer to pick back up. There may also be psychological factors that alter your cultures perspectives on progress and science and serve to inhibit growth (think 'Greeners' but on a larger scale)"


Mr. Barclay,

I'll pin it on a lack of hands, a lack of skills, and overwhelming psychological shock. The whole idea of an 'intelligentsia' who can do without the rest of the 'herd' carries too much baggage for my liking.

The knowledge and skills required by our civilization for day-to-day operation are far beyond the abilities of one person or even one group. The more I ponder the question, the higher I push my 'guess-timate'. It would take millions of people, each with a critical set of skills, and still we'd lose huge chunks of our civilization. There is too much that needs doing, too much that needs knowing, and far too much for any one man or group to know or do.

Imagine you're in the polar Zlodh Basin on Darrian about four weeks after an EMP event. That EM pulse destroyed nearly all of your electronics and; because nearly everything had a chip in it, from your toaster to your watch to you comm link, you have NO personal, business, or industrial electronics left. Without communications; no comm, no 'net, no broadcast media (as if Darrian still used that) you and your neighbors had no way of knowing about the flares or, more ominously, ejecta sheets Tarnis threw off.

With comms lost and transport gone, every section of the city and outlying region are quite literally on their own. Many people survived the EM pulse and the equipment failures it caused. Now everyone is worried about food and water. Distributing those most basic of supplies becomes the only priority of whatever government all these now isolated regions have left.

It is true that many of you survived the grav transport failures, electrical breakdowns, and other equipment malfunctions the EM pulse inflicted, but very few will survive the next few hours when the air burns and the polar sea boils. What makes matters worse is that even if someone KNEW about the ejecta heading for Darrian, there is NO WAY for them to get that information out. Four weeks after a permanent blackout brings their civilization to a halt, the Darrians will know an even greater calamity.

You and few others; including an odd chap named Vonnegut, were deep underground checking out a food locker for future meals when the temperature began to climb. Vonnegut slammed the doors shut and likely saved you all but now, hours later, you've emerged to a vision like the stories of the Terran Hell the members of the Itzin Corporate Fleet brought with them to Darrian centuries ago.

Buildings, those not still ablaze, look melted. So do a few of the skeletons you find laying in sheltered areas, while it seems anyone caught outside left no remains at all. The old, IC engine, alcohol fueled van you'd planned on using to distribute food with is now an unrecognizable lump. The tires are gone, vaporized into the atmosphere. The mostly plastic body is gone too, leaving just a few cooling puddles and lumps. Even all the metal bits are partially melted and warped.

The EM pulse did some damage, but the ejecta sheets left behind nothing but damage. There is little you can salvage, there is little you can use, there is no place that provides shelter, except for the locker you lucked into finding. You and the few survivors wander around in little more than a daze, too shocked and too numb to fully grasp all that you see. Then, almost in unison, the same thought occurs to you all - When will it happen AGAIN? You know nothing about the Abh and Udh Projects, no idea that this all due to human-triggered solar flares and that they have subsided. All you know is that death rained from the sky.

So, no one on Darrian really knows what happened in the first place. Without the comms the EMP event destroyed, that information about those inadvertantly created stellar flares never made it to most ears. Until those few people who do know what occurred can contact and convince the vast majority who don't know what happened, most of the survivors on Darrian will be living an almost troglodyte existence; burrowed deep underground afraid of the light like a bunch of Morlocks and only coming to surface to snatch what ever supplies they can before the terror drives them back into their holes.

It isn't a wonder that it took Darrian all those centuries to return to TL15, it is a wonder that Darrian ever returned at all.


Sincerely,
Larsen

P.S. I've been too dark or too poetic perhaps? You've seen the black and white footage of 50s A-bomb testing; the house bursting into flames seconds before the shockwave hits it, the transmission towers melting, the trees snapping off at the base before burning too. The ejecta sheets purportedly raised the temperature in many regions of Darrian to 500 degC and kept it there for far longer than some 'mere' transitory nuclear blast. Imagine your neighborhood in a 500 plus degree oven for an hour or so.

 

[Spinward Scout]

That was awesome Larsen, thank you. I think that was exactly the visual I was looking for. Mind if I use that word for word?

Scout

 

[Drakon]

Does the same thing happen when a star becomes a star? Like Jupiter in the movie 2010 - when it turns into Lucifer? What could really happen to Earth if Jupiter gained a critical mass?

No. Stars "turn on" in a more gradual fashion, and their neutrino output is much lower. Think about it for a second.

You have two forces governing the size of a star. First is gravity, all that mass attracting itself. The second is heat being produced from the start. Gravity tends to make the star smaller, while heat makes it bigger.

BUT, the fusion process requires pressure to keep it going. It requires that mass at a high density, which the heat is fighting against. So as you heat up the core of a new star, you reduce the pressure, which makes less fusions, which cools it down, which allows it to collapse back, etc. Until you get to a steady or stable state of constant fusion.

As for igniting Jupiter, this is a problem. It looks like Jupiter has about 1/10 the mass needed for ignition, and even then it would be a dim red M class star. Even if you crashed all the other gas giants together, it probably won't become a star. You just end up with another brown dwarf at best. It might fry the worlds in its orbit, but that is kinda doubtful, its surface temperture would be too low.

Also, Jupiter is 5 Aus from the sun, while Earth is 1 Au. And as the sun would be so much brighter, its effects on Earth would be minimal, and probably due to the dimness of a smaller star, not even noticable except for a brighter light in the sky.

[Ask me about Alpha Centauri some day

]

Now increasing the mass of Jupiter MIGHT perturb the orbits of our Earth. Changing its orbit enough that its climate changes to the point of no longer being habitable. But that could take years if not centuries to happen, a long lead time by which the population figures out a way off and moves on. Not sufficient for your purposes.

The flare ideas discussed by others is probably your best bet, if you just want to sterilize one system.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:

MT's 'Hard Times' with it's 'devolving' rules got a lot of people thinking in that way. There's the whole idea of MSRP now with population being tied to atmo, hydro, and bio spheres instead of merely being a 'raw' 2D6 roll.

A computer sim; perhaps like SciAm's Life Game, would be very interesting. You could factor in jump ratings, planetary types, plain old vanilla population growth rates, trade routes, lot and lots of factors. A neat twist may be the inclusion of 'special' resources, an aspect of an otherwise marginal system that may spark faster growth or even settlement in the first place; i.e. Hellhole IV has the only naturally occuring supply of cocktail umbrellas so it gets settled regardless of local conditions.

Another factor that might be of interest is political or government forms, once to that stage of planetary/civilization development. Highly repressive regimes are going to leak population like a sieve, while governments that are more tolerant, less represive or less intrusive, will be attractive to populations from nearby stars.

How anarchist systems fit in is tough to tell. I would think that anarchy would be temporary states, as before long governments form, if as nothing else but a grander form of the old protection racket. THe guy with the biggest gun soon becomes the law. But how he uses it, that is another question.

 

[Whipsnade]

Dameon Toth Detached Scout wrote:

"That was awesome Larsen, thank you. I think that was exactly the visual I was looking for. Mind if I use that word for word?"


Mr. Scout,

Everything you see me post here, at the TML, or any other fora is completely up for grabs. You want it? It's your's and have fun using it! Fold, spindle, and mutilate to your heart's content. Spin whatever use you can from all of it or a fraction of it.

I'm sure there's a legal way to say all that, but the point still gets across. It's all been placed in the public domain by the 'author', me, for anyone to use as they see fit.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:

The story of the IW period does not match the facts. In fact, the story of the period utterly ignores the facts. There must another, deeper, explanation. However, if you threaten to take away the "Terra Uber Alles Action Figures", Our Olde Hobby will react quite savagely.

I liked some features of your proposal, just not all of them. I can't at this moment recall what exactly I liked and didn't like, but I do remember that there were some elements I found quite attractive.

 

[Whipsnade]

Rupert wrote:

"I liked some features of your proposal, just not all of them. I can't at this moment recall what exactly I liked and didn't like, but I do remember that there were some elements I found quite attractive."


Mr. Boleyn,

While most folks liked the idea of Vilani factionalism giving the Terrans the 'breathing room' they needed to expand and that the same factionalism provided 'cracks' the Terrans were able to support, many people vehemently disliked my idea that a Vilani faction and a Terran faction were working together during the period (or at least telling each other they were working together).

The idea of Vilani factionalism providing passive assistence to the Terrans was apparently fine. Taking that further and proposing active assistence, or even Terrans factions working with the Vilani, was too much for most of Our Olde Hobby to stomach however. Those sort of activities; people looking out for 'Number One', acting out of spite, and generally behaving like actual human beings instead of like Marble Men and Action Figures, was too much for the misty-eyed 'Terra Uber Alles' crowd and their dream of Interstellar War glory.

The implausibility of Terran colonial growth; that odd recurring phrase about Terran colonies 'shouldering the war burden', first led me to examine the idea of Terran ruled colonies as opposed to Terran populated colonies. The idea of both ZS and TC factionalism naturally followed. I feel that this distinction; ruled vs. populated, also helped explain many other incongruities of the period; the two biggest being Admiral Hiroshi Estigabarra's treason and the death of representative government on an interstellar scale. Government of, for, and by the people died the day that rat bastard overthrew the elected government of the Confederation in a military coup and installed a system of cronies and military strongmen disguised as a nobility.

My suggestion that various factions in both the Terran Confederation and Ziru Sirka were working with each other and at cross purposes to their own governments provoked most of the private mail flood I recieved. One gentleman took me to task for reducing the glorious Interstellar War period to the level of a cynical [exact quote here] "backroom handjob"

Things went down hill from there.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Anthony]

Actually, I think what most people disliked about your theme wasn't that terran and vilani factions were working together -- it's the implications that the terrans were basically tools of vilani factionalization, and had essentially nothing to do with winning the interstellar wars.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:

While most folks liked the idea of Vilani factionalism giving the Terrans the 'breathing room' they needed to expand and that the same factionalism provided 'cracks' the Terrans were able to support, many people vehemently disliked my idea that a Vilani faction and a Terran faction were working together during the period (or at least telling each other they were working together).

I wouldn't say I disliked it 'vehemently', though I'm not keen on knowing co-operation idea - for the early wars. That it could well have happened in the mid-late war period is something I'm quite happy with. For thr early period I don't think the Terrans knew enough of the Vilani situation to be able or interested in such a deal, and the Vilani factions wouldn't have taken the Terrans seriously enough to want to dicker with them. Later on this no longer applies, and it's unlikely the Terrans wouldn't have found some faction to ally with IMO.

The implausibility of Terran colonial growth; that odd recurring phrase about Terran colonies 'shouldering the war burden', first led me to examine the idea of Terran ruled colonies as opposed to Terran populated colonies. The idea of both ZS and TC factionalism naturally followed. I feel that this distinction; ruled vs. populated, also helped explain many other incongruities of the period; the two biggest being Admiral Hiroshi Estigabarra's treason and the death of representative government on an interstellar scale. Government of, for, and by the people died the day that rat bastard overthrew the elected government of the Confederation in a military coup and installed a system of cronies and military strongmen disguised as a nobility.

I think it was dying anyway, but he and his cronies certainly banged the nial in the coffin. A real hero would've tried saving the old Terran ideals.

My suggestion that various factions in both the Terran Confederation and Ziru Sirka were working with each other and at cross purposes to their own governments provoked most of the private mail flood I recieved. One gentleman took me to task for reducing the glorious Interstellar War period to the level of a cynical [exact quote here] "backroom handjob"

I wouldn't know about private emails - as a general rule I don't privately reply to public postings unless I'm asking something that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed in public. I tend to think that if a reply to a public post won't stand the light of day it shouldn't be sent publicly or privately.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
It isn't as if the Darrians had a Ghoul Patrol in place to warn of stellar upsets.

Yes, but AM8 specifically mentions that the other colonies were warned. Plus there were enough remaining ships for each colony (presumably on in the Darrian Group) to keep three each, plus several more stored at Darrian.

Even after the Maghiz, there were still plenty of ships to gather most of the marginal outputs up. But they chose not to.

"Pre-Maghiz they went from TL10 to TL16 in 600 years. But Post-Maghiz they went from TL9 to TL14 in 1400 years. Did the flares make the Darrians stupid, too?"

That could very well be. Something like over 95% of the Darrian's population and nearly that much of the Confederation's population died in the Maghiz or its aftermath. ...

Please note that I am not talking about the period from TL0 to TL9. The fact that the population at Darrian managed to recover from that is amazing. I am only talking about after reachieving TL9.

"What's wrong with Winston? It is a (theoretically) very habitable planet. But it has a very low population "today" and the per-Maghiz Darrians totally ignored it."

First, no real Darrian colonies beyond Mire, lo tech Rorre, and a few others. ...

Second, Winston is said to have a 'more Earth-like' biosphere and weather activity than Darrian. Winston is also deep within its primary's jump exclusion zone, plus having a secondary star and lone gas giant orbiting about too. ...

I know that except for about three worlds, everything else was really just an "outpost", not a "colony". Regardless, the Darrians did almost exclusively put outposts on habitable worlds.

The "hostile, Earth-like" description was for Cunnonic, not Winston. It could also be true of Winston, but the description you are remembering was for Cunnonic, and they had an outpost on Cunnonic.

The inaccessible option, is a good one though. I hadn't thought of that one.

BTW, when are you going to finish your Winston Landgrab?

Want another Darrian point to ponder? Look at Entrope and compare its population to the two Confederations that have fought over it for 600 years. Did the Darrians and Swords really 'conquer' Entrope all those times? Or did Entrope merely change sides?

Entrope has 10 billion at TL C; SW has 34 billion, mostly at TL A (some C); Darrian has 15 billion, mostly at TL B (some E).

I use this exact point in my Entrope Landgrab. I postulate that only the changes in the 4FW and 5FW were military, and that they were effectively an occupied territory during that period.

"There are others, too. The more I look at it, the more I come to the conclusion that the pre-Maghiz Darrians and the "modern" Darrians were effectively different peoples. (And that the "modern" Darrians really don't know that.)"

Again, an excellent point. Glad to hear someone else thinks just as oddly as I do.

Remember, Foreven is 'officially' off-limits. Nothing stops you or I from producing and sharing IMTU materials set there. (hint-hint-hint)

I would like to think this line of reasoning isn't "odd", but then, you never know ...

I know that I can do whatever I want in Foreven, and I plan on taking a stab at it after I get some other Traveller stuff off my plate. But it just annoys me that we can never know what "really" happened because Foreven "has to be" a big black whole.

 

[Whipsnade]

daryen wrote:

"The "hostile, Earth-like" description was for Cunnonic, not Winston. It could also be true of Winston, but the description you are remembering was for Cunnonic, and they had an outpost on Cunnonic."


Daryen,

I have the AM8 quote. IIRC, Winston is described as more 'Earth-like' than Darrian but my memory is a seive anyway.

Like a lot of Traveller materials, AM8 is inconsistent in spots, or more accurately, consistent only after a bit of work. The paragraphs devoted to Winston state it was the last system 'colonized' by the pre-Collapse Darrians and yet the Maghiz effect maps so no outpost on Winston as of -925. That's where I got the idea of Winston being 'colonized' as part of a post-Maghiz/pre-Collapse effort to get people off a hostile Entrope and Torment and onto a planet with a biopshere.

I'll be finishing my Winston Landgrab once I can make maps that don't look like something drawn by a 'dain bramaged' grad schooler. I'm currently using AutoRealm, but have no artistic ability whatsoever. I cannot even draw a bath.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[daryen]

Larsen,

I finally figured out why you were bothered far more about Entrope changing hands than was I. The problem is that the internet resources on Entrope are wrong.

Most internet maps list Entrope as having a population multiplier of "7". That would give them 70+ billion people, more than the Darrian Confederation and the Sword World Confederation put together. Doubled.

However, that "7" is completely non-canonical. Every source I have shows a population multipler of "1", not "7". (This is the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, the TNE Regency Sourcebook [both dates], and even GT Behind the Claw.)

So, with 10 billion people, it is still pretty strange to be such a football. With 70 billion it would be ridiculous.