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When It's Cold I'd Like To Die (July 18th, 2005 interview with MWM on rpg.net)

I was just going to not post any more on this thread, actually.

But you're right, I have been an ass on this count. I've let it get to me and got carried away. Frankly, I think I've got every right to be pissed off at Marc and at the way that playtest was conducted and I think my issues with it are valid. But I have a talent for flogging dead horses it seems, and not knowing when to shut up about it.

I don't even really know why I care anyway. So I'll stop going on about it, admit that people enjoy what they want to enjoy (even if I can't see what the attraction is) and leave them to it.

Sorry if I pissed anyone off. I've let it go, I'll just stick to the fact-checking in future and I won't go on about CT or T5 again.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
... The lack of player influence in CT chargen is a flaw. ... most random UWPs and systems are so unrealistic that they just plain can't exist. That's another flaw. And what about all the contradictions in various CT adventures and scenarios where they just don't tally up with the rules? (e.g. the early adventures)? Instead of trying to toss out the stuff that doesn't fit, people try and cram it all together into the same universe.
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To some degree, those points among others are major reasons I'm in T5 playtest. I'm doing my best to be patient and give constructive criticism.

In the end, my opinion may matter little. But what anyone does with my opinions is none of my business. I can't recall any of my opinions to be popular on the TML at all.
 
Well, given MWM's nature, I doubt we'll see anything USEFUL in the playtest area for at least another year.

Marc has a task system and a CG system he's released for public alpha. Both are variants on T4.

Marc has repeatedly failed to account for the likes of the extant fan base, and it is doubtful he's in any kind of touch with the potential fan base. GT was being sought by SJG since the TNE days. MWM finally gave in. It now makes him money, sans any real investment of time. T20 was a brilliant idea, and one which, while nice, is NOT my player's cup of tea.

T4 was lambasted primarily over three things: Chris Foss, the Task System, and the lack of editing. Only one of the three was really MWM's area, and he's been ignoring the players on that for not just a few years, but almost a decade now. And still touting that same task system.

The interview really makes Marc sound thoroughly out of touch.

RPGing is still a shame factor in the high-schools, an embarrassing admition during a job interview, and absolutely not present in most computer games now.

Marc may be entitled to his vision, but if he pushes forward against the fans best advice, the whispering death will follow it like it did t4. Which, BTW, is still available new at some FLGS's, since they had trouble giving it away once IG died.
 
T4 was lambasted primarily over three things: Chris Foss, the Task System, and the lack of editing.
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I didn't get what problems people had with Chris Foss. Great art, IMHO, then again, it's a matter of taste. The only problem was with the spaceships which didn't look anything like they should have.
In any case, the main problem I had with T4 was the extremely uneven quality of the supplements. That, and Milieu-0. That setting just didn't work well for me.

RPGing is still a shame factor in the high-schools, an embarrassing admition during a job interview,
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Not where I live. But it would be unusual for MWM to be more in sync with my home country than with his own. ;)

Regards,

Tobias
 
If I make poke back with a general observation...

I love Chris Foss' art generally. But it really had no place in any Traveller book at all.

I've said in other topics on rpgnet that my opinion is that it doesn't matter how good artwork is in RPGs, if it has nothing to do with what is described in the text then it's actually hinders the reader in visualising the setting properly. And that is a bad thing. Foss' stuff may be good for 'random 70s space-opera space scenes' but Traveller's background is somewhat more specific than that.

That said, I think Foss' ship designs are generally vastly more interesting that Traveller's boxes and spheres. Have you seen the stuff in the old TTA Spacecraft/Spacewreck books?
 
I dunno, I could see most of Foss' Artwork as depicting things that can exist in MTU. Though some of it is rather... odd, it is true. Like the cover of "Anomalies".
I grew up on Traveller products having nice SF color covers with little connection to the content however, so maybe this is why I haven't a problem with Foss.
As for the starships, sure, new ship designs can benefit from somewhat more intricate design. But there is also something to be said for simplicity, and in any case W.H. Keith's renditions of the old favorites will forever stay in my mind as the "true" picture for those. It's the same with BattleTech for me, as an example. No matter how well-designed some of the "Reseen" images are, I know a Marauder doesn't look like that.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
That said, I think Foss' ship designs are generally vastly more interesting that Traveller's boxes and spheres. Have you seen the stuff in the old TTA Spacecraft/Spacewreck books?
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Truce, Dr Thomas?

I thought that Peter Elson did the majority of the artwork for Stewart Cowley's old TTA books.
Unfortunately, Peter Elson died back in 1999. So most of his work in sci-fi art is in those TTA books. Some samples of his artwork can be found on this French site (sorry, couldn't link the images)

http://hugues.namur.free.fr/images_autres_HD/vaisseaux/illus/peter-elson_gallery/

As far as I've come to understand it, the problem with Chris Foss was that the artist was given a large sum of up front money by Imperium Games and spent it on a studio in Paris and then didn't produce any work until it was almost too late, much of it incompatible with what was already Traveller canon.
 
Some of those linked above by Jeff (thanks) say Traveller more clearly to me than the Foss stuff, yet it's easy to see similarities. Somehow one works and the other doesn't (for me).

Even the physically improable tail lander (last image) suits Traveller. Never mind that it shouldn't work in reality as we know it, the thing looks cool.

My biggest gripe with any of them? All those bits sticking out on what seem to be supposedly atmospheric capable craft. But hey maybe all that stuff retracts, who knows. Oh, and those hover or grav tanks. No way they should be that close on a battlefield, that's just tactically wrong I think, but maybe the terrain dictated.
 
On this topic, if anyone in their travels should come across a copy of "Space Warriors, Worlds, and Weapons" for sale, and in pretty good to excellent shape (IE, all the pages still in it) please contact me immediately.

That turner prize one isn't the first time. I went to an opening in NYC two years ago that featured a gigantic oil painting, the back element of which was the main deck of the Enterprise from Star Trek, from the Franz Josef blueprints that came out in 1973. For some reason the Artist got VERY pissed when I pointed out Dr. McCoy's office...
 
I'm not a fan of Foss's but his work tends to be a staple for the covers of the novels upon which the original Traveller was based. Surely that alone makes it suitable.

I think these days, with a very highly established setting, it makes more sense to have illustration depicting canon elements but I can see why Foss's work would have been suitable particularly for early versions of Traveller.

Foss and indeed the above linked-to Peter Elson are technically extremely competent but there's something about their tropical-fish-ships that just don't do it for me. Never have. Wish I could put my finger on why.

Crow
 
"I love Chris Foss' art generally. But it really had no place in any Traveller book at all."

Agree 100%. I've always liked CF - he was the first SF artist whose name I knew, and I had a poster of one of his pics on my wall for years - but it just ain't Traveller.
 
"I thought that Peter Elson did the majority of the artwork for Stewart Cowley's old TTA books."

God, I loved those books when I was a kid!

I think there were several artists used.
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
On this topic, if anyone in their travels should come across a copy of "Space Warriors, Worlds, and Weapons" for sale, and in pretty good to excellent shape (IE, all the pages still in it) please contact me immediately.
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You mean this?
 
Originally posted by Aramis:

T4 was lambasted primarily over three things: Chris Foss, the Task System, and the lack of editing. Only one of the three was really MWM's area, and he's been ignoring the players on that for not just a few years, but almost a decade now. And still touting that same task system.
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While cool, Chris Foss' work isn't Traveller.

The task system. Is it true that, at that time, a large percentage of the TML was in favor of Marc's multi-dice task system?
 
Interestingly, enough as one of the most outspoken "art critics" on the CofI...I find the above statement most interesting.

What do people find most not "Traveller" about Chris Foss' work? For me his work, symbolizes the emergence of the 3I from the ruins of the ROM (where superfluious and extravangance was the order of the day) and little pottering ships (if you look at the Scout ship) from the emerging 3I are coming to dominate.

All the old Pocket Empire are simply relying upon 2nd Imperia tech. Whilst, there are worlds who have kept up repair of these old hulks they are not improving...this again accounts to why Sylea came to dominate the Stars and not Terra or any of the more powerful Pocket Empires in Milieu 0. Read Foundation & Empire to get a sense of the Milieu that I am describing. All these Pocket Empires must have felt some sort of lineage back to the original ROM. Others were just simply bandit kingdoms...this is where Foss' vision falters.

Such a milieu would only reoccur in the late Imperium during the Rebellion, especially, if you look at the drawings of Fighting Ships of the MT era (what the hell, was that giant swan) compared to CT classic drawings.

The Black War returned to the 3I to some its original "raider" designs but also hunking big battleships.

Then, Hard Times, kicked in and nobody build starships that much anymore...
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
What do people find most not "Traveller" about Chris Foss' work?
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I was wondering that myself. I mean, most of his art doesn't fall into "This cannot exist in the reality Traveller universe" category, so what makes it "not Traveller"?

Regards,

Tobias
 
I dunno. Just doesn't feel Travellerlike. Maybe it's the total absence of Scout ships. Dunno.
 
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