Madarin Dude
SOC-13
Hey just busy with real life.
Where'd Everybody go?
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
I've noticed something else, and the correlation to "Where'd Everybody Go?" seems strong.
My lunch breaks at work are usually spent reading amateur fiction on various websites. Usually Science-Fiction, but an occasional foray into Magic-Fantasy also works. Amateur websites are great (imho) because the writers have yet to fall into a formulaic rut and have not been critiqued to death for trying something different. Plus, the stories are generally short enough that I can get an easy half-dozen in and still enjoy my bagel and salad.
But lately, there seems to have been a steady drop-off in the number of new entries to the amateur writers' websites. Even rambling emo freeverse is seeing a decline in submissions. This has been going on for about a year, and I first noticed the trend at about the same time that I noticed a decline in CotI posts and calls for games and players.
Something is going on, and it is not seasonal. There is a pervasive, encroaching something that is not only diminishing interest in table-top RPGs, but that also seems to be sapping the imaginations of fiction writers.
Real Life? Teh Interwebz? The popularity of vampires in the commercial media? A Hiver manipulation?
All I know is that opportunities to participate in what I consider fun activities are gradually and steadily becoming fewer and farther between. It's as if the recreational universe has expanded beyond the limits where group-based and face-to-face activities like RPGs can attract enough people to enjoy them.
We're like fading suns retreating into the darkness of intergalactic space.
My lunch breaks at work are usually spent reading amateur fiction on various websites. Usually Science-Fiction, but an occasional foray into Magic-Fantasy also works. Amateur websites are great (imho) because the writers have yet to fall into a formulaic rut and have not been critiqued to death for trying something different. Plus, the stories are generally short enough that I can get an easy half-dozen in and still enjoy my bagel and salad.
But lately, there seems to have been a steady drop-off in the number of new entries to the amateur writers' websites. Even rambling emo freeverse is seeing a decline in submissions. This has been going on for about a year, and I first noticed the trend at about the same time that I noticed a decline in CotI posts and calls for games and players.
Something is going on, and it is not seasonal. There is a pervasive, encroaching something that is not only diminishing interest in table-top RPGs, but that also seems to be sapping the imaginations of fiction writers.
Real Life? Teh Interwebz? The popularity of vampires in the commercial media? A Hiver manipulation?
All I know is that opportunities to participate in what I consider fun activities are gradually and steadily becoming fewer and farther between. It's as if the recreational universe has expanded beyond the limits where group-based and face-to-face activities like RPGs can attract enough people to enjoy them.
We're like fading suns retreating into the darkness of intergalactic space.
I actually noticed a "similar" trend in the computer gaming community, but what's happening there is more business related than anything else. There used to be a lot of computer gaming fan sites on the web, each having their flavor of models, maps, skins, or whatever addon for whatever game you were into at the time.
I don't know that this is what is happening here, and I probably doubt it (though there may be a degree of truth to it), but the fan sites are getting absorbed by internet "squatters" buying up inactive sites, or sites whose owners can't afford the annual fees. Ergo some really cool game site that used to have an active BBS and all kinds of Freebees is gone, and is now owned by "Real Estate Venture dot Com" or something, with all kinds of links to all kinds of other websites with links.
*EDIT*; what's more notable is that the fan sites are getting gobbled up by super-"fan sites" that don't sell anything but advertising space. If you want an addon to whatever game you're into, then all those little fan websites are now part of the new marketing websites that offers all those downloads, but at the cost of viewing tons of flash ads.
*shrug*
All I know is I want the traffic that used to be here with the original REAL Traveller gamers. Let's make it happen.
I don't know that this is what is happening here, and I probably doubt it (though there may be a degree of truth to it), but the fan sites are getting absorbed by internet "squatters" buying up inactive sites, or sites whose owners can't afford the annual fees. Ergo some really cool game site that used to have an active BBS and all kinds of Freebees is gone, and is now owned by "Real Estate Venture dot Com" or something, with all kinds of links to all kinds of other websites with links.
*EDIT*; what's more notable is that the fan sites are getting gobbled up by super-"fan sites" that don't sell anything but advertising space. If you want an addon to whatever game you're into, then all those little fan websites are now part of the new marketing websites that offers all those downloads, but at the cost of viewing tons of flash ads.
*shrug*
All I know is I want the traffic that used to be here with the original REAL Traveller gamers. Let's make it happen.
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there are some interesting articles that our society is getting overly saturated in media and information: we've gone from simple face to face only communication, to letters, telegraph, phone lines, cell phones, computers, and cell phones that are now effectively computers (I've an Incredible, so I can phone, IM, surf the web, email, play games, read and get distracted by a simple device that fits in my pocket. Oh, and actual make phone calls...). And the time between developments has increased dramatically (there will be dual-core phones out next year. Seriously. With pico-projectors so you can have a large screen TV on..your..phone...it is getting crazy)
Anyway - some theorize that there is so much distraction that we're not functioning at deep levels as much anymore. Role playing, while not a particularly deep thing, does require consistent time set aside to actually play. And with such an expanding media universe (on-line games, TV, movies, etc) people get easily distracted, are trying new things. And from what I've read, it is hard to recruit younger players to a PnP type of game: they are raised on hi-def graphics where thinking is not at a premium. Heck - I'm luck my son will play some games (I got him playing my old, 1977 (I think) version with the 1st 5 expansions version of Cosmic Encounter that I ordered from Eon back in HS back in the 80s. I got Traveller the same way: direct from GDW) But I digress, which was sort of the point I was ambling towards: there are so many things to engage us that the markets are necessarily fragmenting and getting very targeted.
That's just one theory that fits into the where has everyone gone question.
Anyway - some theorize that there is so much distraction that we're not functioning at deep levels as much anymore. Role playing, while not a particularly deep thing, does require consistent time set aside to actually play. And with such an expanding media universe (on-line games, TV, movies, etc) people get easily distracted, are trying new things. And from what I've read, it is hard to recruit younger players to a PnP type of game: they are raised on hi-def graphics where thinking is not at a premium. Heck - I'm luck my son will play some games (I got him playing my old, 1977 (I think) version with the 1st 5 expansions version of Cosmic Encounter that I ordered from Eon back in HS back in the 80s. I got Traveller the same way: direct from GDW) But I digress, which was sort of the point I was ambling towards: there are so many things to engage us that the markets are necessarily fragmenting and getting very targeted.
That's just one theory that fits into the where has everyone gone question.
Thunderbolt
SOC-12
I would echo what coliver988 says about media saturation and diversions.
At the risk of falling into the "youngsters aren't like we used to be, get off my lawn, etc" mode, the amount of spoon fed entertainment available now is huge compared to my childhood were we had three TV channels (BBC1, BBC2 and ITV), and best thing going for computer entertainment was the Atari 2600, the coveted property of one kid in my whole circle of friends.
Slightly tangentially, coliver988's posting also reminded me of an article by David Brin (yes the SF author) about the conversion of kids from tinkerers of computers, to passive consumers of games with no clue about they work or how to create software:
http://www.salon.com/technology/feature/2006/09/14/basic
At the risk of falling into the "youngsters aren't like we used to be, get off my lawn, etc" mode, the amount of spoon fed entertainment available now is huge compared to my childhood were we had three TV channels (BBC1, BBC2 and ITV), and best thing going for computer entertainment was the Atari 2600, the coveted property of one kid in my whole circle of friends.
Slightly tangentially, coliver988's posting also reminded me of an article by David Brin (yes the SF author) about the conversion of kids from tinkerers of computers, to passive consumers of games with no clue about they work or how to create software:
http://www.salon.com/technology/feature/2006/09/14/basic
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
After reading through Mr. Brins rant I suggest two things:
+ He should get connected to reality
+ He should get connected to the present
If one absolutely wants his childs to suffer BASIC than the perfect tool of torture is delivered with many Windows boxes - MS OFFICE! Yes, good ole office contains a complete basic interpreter, compatible with Visual Basic 6. It can be found in Word, Excel and Access.
Aside from that there is no need for anyone to "learn to code". Thankfully THAT part of the computer era is over. Same as with cars. While I actually CAN change plugs, oil, belts on quite a few engines, adjust timing and actually remove/replace the engine of a VW Type 181 and an M48A2GA2 as well as knowing the basic service tasks on an Sd.Kfz 173(1) I don't see the need for that today. Nor the need to learn it. Modern technologies has rendered some tasks unneeded(2) and others almost impossible(3) so there is no need to learn them.
The playing field has changed, other things have become important, other skills are needed today. No more need for "everybody a programmer" same as there's no more for "everybody a farmer"
(1) A friend was at Munster tank museeum
(2) I don't miss adjusting the timing in a R5, really I don't
(3) Can't get at the oil plug or filter in most modern cars without a pit. And pits are mostly illegal in privat hands today in germany due to the Greenies
+ He should get connected to reality
+ He should get connected to the present
If one absolutely wants his childs to suffer BASIC than the perfect tool of torture is delivered with many Windows boxes - MS OFFICE! Yes, good ole office contains a complete basic interpreter, compatible with Visual Basic 6. It can be found in Word, Excel and Access.
Aside from that there is no need for anyone to "learn to code". Thankfully THAT part of the computer era is over. Same as with cars. While I actually CAN change plugs, oil, belts on quite a few engines, adjust timing and actually remove/replace the engine of a VW Type 181 and an M48A2GA2 as well as knowing the basic service tasks on an Sd.Kfz 173(1) I don't see the need for that today. Nor the need to learn it. Modern technologies has rendered some tasks unneeded(2) and others almost impossible(3) so there is no need to learn them.
The playing field has changed, other things have become important, other skills are needed today. No more need for "everybody a programmer" same as there's no more for "everybody a farmer"
(1) A friend was at Munster tank museeum
(2) I don't miss adjusting the timing in a R5, really I don't
(3) Can't get at the oil plug or filter in most modern cars without a pit. And pits are mostly illegal in privat hands today in germany due to the Greenies
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
So basically you/we have become slaved to the technological elite - i.e. the people who can program and repair the machines.
We are a black box society, we use technology without understanding its fundamentals.
This is a real problem for a future society even more technologically advanced. What happens when the machines replace the techies then the machines decide they no longer want to serve us?
We are a black box society, we use technology without understanding its fundamentals.
This is a real problem for a future society even more technologically advanced. What happens when the machines replace the techies then the machines decide they no longer want to serve us?
If he learns BASIC now, and codes his first computer program however simple, he won't be nearly so scared as when he has to go and code in Python, Ruby, Java, C++, Perl etc. etc.
Visual Basic's not BASIC. VB and VBA are still part of the "overthinking the plumbing" mentality. 75% of the work's already done for the user, in that the graphics are prepackaged. All you have to do is plonk them down on the form and press a button to tie them into the app. That's not coding.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
IF you use a visual application. Nobody forces you to do that, VB (and even more VBA) allow classic BASIC spagetti coding without a GUI. Actually in VBA it is easier to program without than with GUI elements, at least using EXCEL/VBA.
And honestly, who really needs to learn a programming language these days if he is not working in that line of business? Add in that BASIC is easily the worst language to start with (GOTO, rubber variables etc) and even IF one wants to learn that he should at least start with a decend language. There are MODULA-2 and JAVA environments for free
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Actually you can't serve a modern car unless you invest the cars price in tools and workshop. At LEAST the cars price. Engines are computer controlled/diagnosed these days and quite a few systems (Like the catalisator and lamba sensor) can only be checked with one. A producer specific one. Same with a lot of other systems like TVs (SMD chips, can't solder these at home)
That is the price we pay for a greatly increased efficiency in many of the systems be it fuel/power consumption, be it price, be it maintenance intervalls. I don't want to go back to 1980s cars without computer controlled ignition, ABS/ASR and all the other nice stuff.
Oh and even KNOWING the basics (I do have an Engineers degree in Computer Science) does not change that. I may know how to design a chip but I still can't fix it since modern boards are not user serviceabel
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Thunderbolt
SOC-12
Apologies for derailing the thread slightly with that link, I thought of it because it touched on the way that kids are encouraged away from creating stuff on their own (e.g. learning BASIC), to becoming passive consumers of other people's creativity instead.
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
I think that is the core of the issue. Why participate in a sporting event when you can watch it on the telly? Why try out for the cast at civic theatre when you can pop in a Blu-Ray instead? Why sit across a table from 4 or 5 other people and collaborate with them on an evening's entertainment when Twitter is available? Why play Traveller when you can watch a You-tube video of total strangers playing Guitar Hero?
We've become passive lumpen of commercial entertainment at the expense of our sociability.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
OTOH why SHOULD one do all the activities? Many (like the theater) come from times thankfully gone by when "Littletown Theather" was all the amusement one could get. Today I don't have to accept low quality versions of MacBeth, I CAN watch Polanskis excellent version.
Same for many other things. 25 years ago the only way to view some frescos on Cologne Cathedral was to climb up a few hundret stairs and stand on a windy roof. Tooo bad if for one reason or another you could not go there. Today there is likely a webcam allowing everybody the view.
"Because we did so" is not the equivalent of "it was better" (and made from wood!). More often it is "time has faded my memory of the bad stuff"
Same for many other things. 25 years ago the only way to view some frescos on Cologne Cathedral was to climb up a few hundret stairs and stand on a windy roof. Tooo bad if for one reason or another you could not go there. Today there is likely a webcam allowing everybody the view.
"Because we did so" is not the equivalent of "it was better" (and made from wood!). More often it is "time has faded my memory of the bad stuff"
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
I used to run track, rather than sit in the stands. I've been in civic theatre productions, rather than sit in the audience. I ran an AD&D campaign for 7 years, rather than just watch something on VHS ... or Beta. I play Traveller more for the social aspects, rather than just watch other people have fun. I've climbed the dome at St. Peter's Basilica, rather than just watch another travelogue. It's a matter of being there, and being part of the event, rather than vicariously observing someone else's efforts. And it's just plain fun!
There is as much difference between doing and watching as there is between participation and mere interest. Of course, participation requires both preparation and personal involvement, both of which can be tedious. This may explain, in part, the abundance of pron on the interwebz -- why go through all the trouble and mess of an intimate encounter while an impersonal video is just a few mouse clicks away?
There is as much difference between doing and watching as there is between participation and mere interest. Of course, participation requires both preparation and personal involvement, both of which can be tedious. This may explain, in part, the abundance of pron on the interwebz -- why go through all the trouble and mess of an intimate encounter while an impersonal video is just a few mouse clicks away?
I've got to admit, I feel like one of those lumpen passive consumer flesh blobs from WALLE. Working two jobs to keep a roof over my head eats up a lot of man hours. I get one night off a week, and hopefully, will move onto better employment in the near future. But, who's to say?
I miss gaming with responsible, intelligent, either family or career oriented people. But I'm cool with moving onto other things.
I just miss the company here.
I miss gaming with responsible, intelligent, either family or career oriented people. But I'm cool with moving onto other things.
I just miss the company here.
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
Aye, when you're working two jobs to support your family, passive entertainment is the best you can do ... been there ...
"Der Lumpen" that I'm referring to seem to fill their free time more with instant gratification than with any participatory activities.
"Der Lumpen" that I'm referring to seem to fill their free time more with instant gratification than with any participatory activities.
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Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
The discussion of spoon-feeding Soma to our children explains what's happening to them, but does it explain what's happening to us, the people who were brought up with FTF RPGs?
I think Blue Ghost's own situation is nearer the mark. It may be selective memory, but I reckon we all had more spare time twenty years ago than we do now, and in many cases we had more time two years ago. Every year, we seem to have to do more work for the same (or less) pay, we're more tired at the end of the day, other people are equally tired and more difficult to engage, so we spend a greater proportion of our diminishing time on passive entertainment.
And of course, there is the ever-increasing effect of Big Brother at work monitoring and censoring our internet activity...
There just aren't enough hours in the day any more. Where's the life of leisure all this technology was supposed to bring us? That's what I want to know.
I think Blue Ghost's own situation is nearer the mark. It may be selective memory, but I reckon we all had more spare time twenty years ago than we do now, and in many cases we had more time two years ago. Every year, we seem to have to do more work for the same (or less) pay, we're more tired at the end of the day, other people are equally tired and more difficult to engage, so we spend a greater proportion of our diminishing time on passive entertainment.
And of course, there is the ever-increasing effect of Big Brother at work monitoring and censoring our internet activity...
There just aren't enough hours in the day any more. Where's the life of leisure all this technology was supposed to bring us? That's what I want to know.
Madarin Dude
SOC-13
I miss gaming too. but I am in a different place than before and having to take care of my family and living in a different place where I do not know a lot of gamers I am content to be a dad and do more passive consuming. I certainly can't play like before but i would enjoy a game every two weeks or so.
Still do the three D stuff too but I do not put the time i used to put into it because I have other obligations. Lots of distractions but hey that is fine I brought it on myself.
Still do the three D stuff too but I do not put the time i used to put into it because I have other obligations. Lots of distractions but hey that is fine I brought it on myself.
Yeah, I can also relate. A couple of years ago I was an IT professional contracting around Europe (mostly UK) for loads of money and a reasonable amount of free time. Now I’m back on the North American continent (Western Canada), looking for a permanent IT job here ... and working full time in a crappy Dollar Store to make the rent (equivalent hourly rate of 10% what I’m used to). Not only am I divorced from my gaming group of 15 years, when not working I’m job hunting or trying to get a technical certificate (to prove I have the skills I already have) to bolster my resume.
It’s defiantly the case (for me) that there is less free time now than there was, and I have less energy too. But it should all be temporary. In a few years things could be back to normal? Perhaps for everyone else too?
(Actually, the Dollar Store I'm in is the retail equivalent of Fawlty Towers. If I had the time I could probably write a black comedy about it.)
It’s defiantly the case (for me) that there is less free time now than there was, and I have less energy too. But it should all be temporary. In a few years things could be back to normal? Perhaps for everyone else too?
(Actually, the Dollar Store I'm in is the retail equivalent of Fawlty Towers. If I had the time I could probably write a black comedy about it.)
About every two weeks is right. Although, I am a Dad with two great kids...2 & 6 yrs old...you still need a breather once and a while...and gaming does provide a perfect outlet.
Plus, it makes the kids curious...and soon you are raising the next generation of gamers. Yup, videogames has zapped the minds of a generation but there is a newer generation (like my kids that I will not let them have an X-Box or Wii or similar contraption till their teen years)...in the meantime, I would rather they do the make-believe/LARP for as long as I can keep them outside...I always involve them in stories where they are the main protagonist...only this way can we fend off the video demon.
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