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OTU Only: Whither Death?

Guess I approach these things simultaneously from a techie direction and a gameplay direction, and where they intersect is where I likely want to be.

The QND answer I get from a short run-through on wafertech is that the more intrusive and thorough a copy or insertion, the more compatibility and 'changes since' would be an issue, and it hasn't been an ubiquitous tech before else the nature of society would be different, so the techie challenges are why it isn't.

Example, a copy of a person in old age is going to be capturing the state of their mind as they are in a less then optimal physical and endocrinological state.

You put this mind into a freshly grown healthy version of the same person, and there will be less 'rejection' then say someone else, but the physical hardware is naturally different then the source brain, not to mention all the rest of the squishy chemicals and bodily functions.

So there would be mismatches for say we call it 'brain cell addressing', emotional reactions, and likely a host of involuntary coding the wafer would have to have to capture autonomic and movement functions.

For situations where one only has the wafer, there would likely have to be an editing process where the loading is adjusted to work with the differences inherent in the clone.

IMO there should be the possibility of madness or failure/rejection. That alone might make it less palatable as several clones have to be created to deal with failure, and some terminations.

Skill wafers on the other hand are less intrusive or simpler.

They either act as a natural knowledge feed like reaching for a manual you are familiar with, or imposing movement on your system with auto-adjustment for your body's neuromuscular interaction parameters (something already coded to a standard wafer API that was generated individually when the implants went in) without intruding on deep mental or bodily functions.

Another option I just thought of might help the process, but with different costs and problems.

You could have a sync-up, a live transfer between the original and the clone.

That way, the original knows EXACTLY what the clone gets and is thinking, adjustments can be made live from the original right there, the crazy can be avoided or dealt with immediately, the clone likely is on board with the process if he knows he gets to continue after the original is gone, and the swap is either done right then (the original gets killed) or the clone goes on ice awaiting a backup call.

Costly, less current backup, takes time and vulnerability that may be difficult or dangerous for the original to risk.

Bottom line, whichever way your wafer OTU/IMTU goes, unless you want to postulate an immortal society and the effects therein, you are going to want it to cost as much or more then anagathics and carry risks of a technical, legal, social, medical and/or personal nature.
 
Well, I think that I have said my piece, and probably cannot contribute any more to the discussion. Have fun.

While treading lightly around the topic so as to not get either of us in trouble, this topic is mirrored IMO in the argument around Star Trek transporters.

Is the person who just got effectively killed/taken apart molecule by molecule the same one that got reassembled 10,000 km away?

On a practical basis for purposes of storytelling, most of the time yes, except when it fails in unique ways- again for storytelling.

Do ST fans argue the philosophy of existence and what is the nature of the whatever it is that is left at the destination? Some do. Others just accept it as the setting and handwavium story and enjoy.

If you look at wafer/cloning as however you look at transporters, that might make it more palatable as entertainment and not sim or 'abomination'.
 
Guess I approach these things simultaneously from a techie direction and a gameplay direction, and where they intersect is where I likely want to be.
This is good advice.

The QND answer I get from a short run-through on wafertech is that the more intrusive and thorough a copy or insertion, the more compatibility and 'changes since' would be an issue, and it hasn't been an ubiquitous tech before else the nature of society would be different, so the techie challenges are why it isn't.
We don't actually know much about Imperial society beyond the scant information we have for the Spinward Marches. We don't know what Imperial core sectors are like - taking the T4 core subsector and sector then extrapolating to the future will produce a much different society to the one DGP described (core sectors are just like the Spinward Marches - locally autonomous world governments etc, this is a big mistake IMHO).

Example, a copy of a person in old age is going to be capturing the state of their mind as they are in a less then optimal physical and endocrinological state.
This could be an excellent way to put the brake on the rich and powerful using this tech. If they record their memories and personality while at their peek and then just update memories, the wafer version is going to be very different to the nonagenarian that finally shuffles off this mortal coil.

You put this mind into a freshly grown healthy version of the same person, and there will be less 'rejection' then say someone else, but the physical hardware is naturally different then the source brain, not to mention all the rest of the squishy chemicals and bodily functions.
True, but the meat brain is obviously more adaptable to incorporating the personality and memories of the body from which it was copied.

So there would be mismatches for say we call it 'brain cell addressing', emotional reactions, and likely a host of involuntary coding the wafer would have to have to capture autonomic and movement functions.

For situations where one only has the wafer, there would likely have to be an editing process where the loading is adjusted to work with the differences inherent in the clone.
I would imagine that writing the 'old' personality to the 'new' brain is carefully monitored and requires quite a bit of supervision - you don't just slot the wafer into the jack or use your TL15/16 personality overlay machine to zap it.

IMO there should be the possibility of madness or failure/rejection. That alone might make it less palatable as several clones have to be created to deal with failure, and some terminations.
There are rules for it all going horribly wrong in T5 :)



You could have a sync-up, a live transfer between the original and the clone.

That way, the original knows EXACTLY what the clone gets and is thinking, adjustments can be made live from the original right there, the crazy can be avoided or dealt with immediately, the clone likely is on board with the process if he knows he gets to continue after the original is gone, and the swap is either done right then (the original gets killed) or the clone goes on ice awaiting a backup call.

Costly, less current backup, takes time and vulnerability that may be difficult or dangerous for the original to risk.
This is exactly what I was getting at when I mentioned a prime personality (I used a computer based on in my version, but it could be the original meat being linked to the clone) being aware of its clone in real time.

Just a thought - what if the link works both ways so whole 'families' of clones/synthetics can be linked and share their memories for the day while synced during their sleep cycle...

Bottom line, whichever way your wafer OTU/IMTU goes, unless you want to postulate an immortal society and the effects therein, you are going to want it to cost as much or more then anagathics and carry risks of a technical, legal, social, medical and/or personal nature.
Excellent summation.
 
I agree this is one of the most interesting threads we've had in a while.

I don't think the wafertech as depicted in AotI or T5 breaks the Third Imperium setting at all. As Mike points out, we actually don't know that much about 3I society. But more importantly, there are at least a couple of constraints that would limit the widespread adoption of wafers: technology and culture.

The consciousness-downloading wafertech of Agent of the Imperium is extremely cutting edge and deployed specifically to address potentially Imperium-level catastrophes. Assuming the max TL of the Imperium in the mid 300s was 13, and given the Agent's wafertech shows true AI characteristics, then we are talking about a TL 16 experimental device -- something that is beyond the common capabilities of most Imperial worlds even in 1105. Nobles, megacorps, and the military could access this tech, but it would be largely beyond 99.999% of the Imperial population.

But I think cultural prohibitions could be an even stronger constraint. Three very good explorations of this technology are the television show Black Mirror, the movie Moon, the play/movie Marjorie Prime. All depict the difficult moral, philosophical, and practical limitations of this tech. While it sounds great at first, once you start thinking a little more you start to see some really dark implications.

And AotI hints at some of this as well -- imagine if your whole existence consists solely of being awakened in order to issue genocidal orders or provide damage control for planetary cataclysms. Doesn't that sound a lot like Hell?

Fundamentally, as has already been pointed out, this tech doesn't actually grant immortality. I might copy my consciousness into the cloud, but when I die I'm still dead. Period. It's nice to know a part of me will live on, but it's not actually all that more comforting than having successful children or leaving behind some legacy like a work of great art or charitable foundation. Dead is still dead.

These moral and philosophical questions have probably created or will create a serious legal challenge for the Third Imperium. Consciousness-downloading is probably much more valuable to other people than to the person actually being copied.

The military would want to copy great admirals and generals, megacorps would want to copy successful executives, research academies would want to copy brilliant scientists, entertainment corporations would want to copy the most popular entertainers. But a copy of Albert Einstein would probably be a helluva lot more attractive to Princeton than it would be to Einstein. Could my employer force me to download? And once downloaded, who has the rights to my consciousness? What rights does that consciousness have?

In the Imperial year 17 Emperor Cleon Zhunastu declared, "Any sentient life form within the Imperial borders, regardless of its origin, is a protected being, and thus a citizen of the Third Imperium." The "living" qualification has been used to disqualify robots from citizenship, so would it also apply to virtual beings? What if they are downloaded into a clone?

Imagine if the movie studios had this tech in 1960. Marilyn Monroe is starting to act more and more erratic on set, so 20th Century Fox exercises a clause in her contract to force her to download her consciousness. After her suicide, her consciousness is reactivated in a clone, allowing her to complete filming of Something's Got to Give. But the clone is just as broken as the original Marilyn. So as her fame explodes this poor woman is trapped in an endless cycle of dying and being revived to film one new movie after new movie. She even wins the Academy Award for Pretty Woman in alternate 1990. The insatiable public can't get enough of her. Meanwhile the Screen Actor's Guild files suit against the five major studies because so few starring roles are given to new actors; the studios keep going back to the same successful (and free) clone actors over and over again. I got a little queasy just thinking about this.

I'll bet, absent an Imperial declaration, that Imperial Law is a mess on these questions, with a wide variety of interpretations of Cleon's intent. There is probably a large political movement devoted to "liberating" virtual consciousnesses, arguing that this tech constitutes chattel slavery under the Warrant of Restoration. The Megacorps are probably vigorous opponents of this movement.

So. Many. Possibilities.
 
Thats a very good point. Possession of a Personnality without consent of the "Original" might be very neatly "solved" in the OTU by classifying it as slavery.

So. Many. Possibilities. is a great tagline for Traveller
 
More like a copyright, image and patent issue.

Dead celebrities are owned and represented.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ix5IYz0cc
Except it's not an either/or question, which is why this would be such a legal mess in the Third Imperium, just like it is today -- globally the laws are all over the place. It's the ultimate conflict of property and personal rights, which is why it's such an interesting topic.

Instead of downloading a consciousness, imagine creating a simulation of a personality based on social media data. (See, for example, the Black Mirror episode "Be Right Back.") Users have to sign away all rights to post on Makhidkarun's insterstellar version of Facebook. Miss your dead best friend? Drop 0.5 megacredits to sign up for Makhidkarun's new "Restoria" service, which provides you with the ability to speak to a holographic sim of your lost pal for up to six months. (And the more you interact with the Restoria avatar, the more lifelike it becomes!)

How would the law handle something like that?
 
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Well I have just binge watched Altered Carbon - not a bad adaptation of the book.

The stacks and sleeving in the book and TV show raise similar questions of identity as we have been discussing here.
 
Has anyone else been creeped out by the clone pods in Dark Matter?

Clones a la 'Dark Matter'.
Instantaneous (nearly) Transfer to booths in space stations?
Autodoc brainscans PC, Sends signal to chipped android somewhere else.
Easy for repair jobs in hard to reach places. Would keep a lot of humanitii in safety while working on dangerous missions. Also reminds me of The Matrix. The idea of keeping the original on a slab while out of body would relieve many of the legal issues.

Legally? That must throw a few questions.
If there are two of you, which one votes?
OK, two votes and you are removed from election (and BOTH fined after Gov 7?).
Newest technology is only used for priority jobs(Agents, etc).
Most wafers would possibly be lower tech variants, as the best are in short(er/ish) supply.
To be kept as secret as possible for as long as possible.
Everyone would love an extra card in a game of poker.

What about a crazy, who scans himself and implants it into an unwilling 'victim'?

Fancy joining your own gang? (literally)

I agree that at higher TLs (as knowledge & use progress flaws are ironed out) the brain could survive the scanning process, maybe by TL15?

Factory production of batch Sophontoids, all imbued with copies of one soldier from a bunch of chips (you could almost know what that trooper was thinking!). Easy supply of labor for Megacorps, though not cheap (unless compared to transport and living plus wages). A lot like cloning. What would happen after use? 2000AD Rogue Trooper?

Maybe the upper echelons of the Empire have known for a long time, just 'forgot' to mention it to mortals

Programmers must be able to restrict/advance wafer tech with 'safeguards' against The God Complex. Maybe society itself restricts it because of upholding the family gene line, allowing future generations to progress normally.

In Agent:
Why didn`t the technology of the time notice the genetic mutation of navy guy who was submitted for implantation of Bland? Hormonally male, but genetically female (or was it the other way round?) I thought the guy had used plenty of wafers before? (OK, I guess that Bland has special control of the chip he is in, that others might not have - simple Skill Wafers wouldn`t)

IMTU:
Kesali (Vland/2637) has 13 companies of Marines with Wafers.
This allows many squadrons of the Navy to carry the advanced capability into many more areas.
12 of the 13 are considered Elite.
 
T5 is cyberpunk then? Why not play Eclipse Phase as it delves into these questions more intensely.

To me Cyberpunk, especially Eclipse Phase tech, is not Traveller. Traveller is 1950s (60s? 70s?) people put into strange adventures.

I mean if everyone has a backup, or multiple backs, no one "dies" they just respawn and start over. Reminds me of some of my friends FRPG games in the 70s and 80s. Everyone got resurrected if they were so unfortunate as to "die" so no penalty.

What's the fun of that?
 
Side effects

The fun is in the side effects they suffer in their second life. Perhaps the player now has a bizarre appetite for something rare or repulsive. Perhaps they come back with a psionic power that they can't turn off. Maybe during the download procedure, there's a glitch and the player has slightly different skills or something.
 
I mean if everyone has a backup, or multiple backs, no one "dies" they just respawn and start over.
But you DO "die". What you have is "life insurance".

Current, today, we buy life insurance to do things like pay off the mortgage or send kids to college. We have Essential Personnel policies to protect companies from loss, etc.

But, in the end, these are all financial instruments. You're still dead, your family has lost you, the company loses your guidance and knowledge, but at least the kids get to college and the investors are paid back.

With the mechanism in T5, you still DIE. You're dead. The personal you. The "you you". Maybe if you're backed up you'll be willing to take more risks. Like, say, a firefighter gets backed up regularly as a perk of the trade. And, since you are backed up, you might feel less concern about going in to a burning building.

Now, as players, we're pretty detached from our characters already. We constantly put them in to dire situations. We have to "roll dice" to feel fear. But even with a backup, I'd think that death is a very personal thing and not to be taken lightly.
 
'You' wake up. You remember falling asleep last night in front of the news as usual, and then you remember the deal you had made. Once asleep you were to be 'backed up'.
'You' move to the bathroom and stare at yourself in the mirror, 'you' stare back.

The bedroom door opens. Someone who looks just like 'you' walks in carrying a big gun.

'Hey it works', says the other 'you' with the gun.
'Shame the law says only one of me is allowed to be alive at a time'...

What do 'you' do next? You remember your childhood, your parents. You remember your first love, every broken relationship, your dead dog.
Do 'you' close your eyes and think 'Well I'm just a copy so my life doesn't mean anything' or do you fight for continued existence.

I actually started a game with this scenario once...
 
T5 is cyberpunk then? Why not play Eclipse Phase as it delves into these questions more intensely.

T5 is not Cyberpunk, but it can be if thats a theme the Ref or group want to explore.

Eclipse Phase isn't cyberpunk either it's Transhumanist.

I feel like using an Inigo Montoya meme here but memethics aren't a thing in the Cyberpunk genre are they?

To me Cyberpunk, especially Eclipse Phase tech, is not Traveller. Traveller is 1950s (60s? 70s?) people put into strange adventures.

I don't get this. T5's Galaxiad Era is set around 6320AD, Traveller in general is set "in the future" not the 50s, 60s or 70s. Yes CT was published in the 1970s and has its roots in the golden age of science fiction, but it's not limited to it. Traveller and T5 in particular allows us to play in the kind of sci-fi genres we like. However I've definitely never seen Traveller as tied to Flash Gordon where 50s kids get into strange adventures on Mongo.

I mean if everyone has a backup, or multiple backs, no one "dies" they just respawn and start over. Reminds me of some of my friends FRPG games in the 70s and 80s. Everyone got resurrected if they were so unfortunate as to "die" so no penalty.

What's the fun of that?

Everyone doesn't have a backup. It's high tech and expensive. PCs might have a back-up if they have the money and think of taking out insurance. If they do its a good way of keeping players, with PCs they may have invested in, in the game without having them roll a new character and sit out the session until the Ref can shoehorn them back into the party. As a Referee tool it allows for those nemesis characters that just won't die no matter how deep a mine shaft you drop them into.

There are penalties and rules for this, and as we've discovered in this thread lots of interesting moral challenges to explore through the medium of science fiction.

Science and science fiction moves on. I like my sci-fi games to be plausible so tools like cloning and memory recording are useful. Do I emphasize them in every game? No. Only where they are part of the plot. That way the OTU is still the OTU for my players and I, it just has more depth and wonder in it to retain their interest.
 
T5 is not Cyberpunk, but it can be if thats a theme the Ref or group want to explore.

Eclipse Phase isn't cyberpunk either it's Transhumanist.

I feel like using an Inigo Montoya meme here but memethics aren't a thing in the Cyberpunk genre are they?

Yes. At least, in CP2020, posergangs were definitely a thing.

I don't get this. T5's Galaxiad Era is set around 6320AD, Traveller in general is set "in the future" not the 50s, 60s or 70s. Yes CT was published in the 1970s and has its roots in the golden age of science fiction, but it's not limited to it. Traveller and T5 in particular allows us to play in the kind of sci-fi genres we like. However I've definitely never seen Traveller as tied to Flash Gordon where 50s kids get into strange adventures on Mongo.
You haven't looked at the maps all that well, have you?
Travellermap: Mongo

Traveller Wiki: Mongo
 
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