Why Other Versions of Traveller Failed

[Gallowglass]

There is no need, either amongst the majority of fans or commercially, for ANOTHER packaging of the OTU setting and a rule system. We have had six of those, all of which have had at least modest commercial success and ALL of which still have followings (yes, even poor little T4 with it's deformity, I mean, innovative use of half-dice). As for commercially supported rule systems, we have GURPS, d20 and (arguably) CT. And many are happy with these (or use their own favoured rules: D6, BRP, Universe, whatever).

But I (and a number of others) think that a promsinging line of game development that ran from CT to MT, was sidelined by the GDW House System, and nearly lived again in T4, only needs thet right pulling together of material (some already published) to produce an outstanding SF RPG game that most Traveller players would find very familiar whilst also being able to adapt to settings very different to the OTU.

Since this is what for many people, for many years, Traveller WAS, I don't see a problem with wanting it to be called Traveller. Whether it's quite what MWM has in mind for T5 is another matter entirely of course.

But then, T5 is increasingly likely to be an aspiration rather than a product: the commercial realties are that whilst GT, T20 and the CT reprints continue it is hard to see there being sufficient market to make a T5 viable on the Traveller name alone, and there is no White Knight in the wings waiting to swoop down and bank roll T5 (and given what happened last time...)

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by daryen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gallowglass:
What is generic about Jump Drive, STL Communication, Laser Weapons, Gauss Weapons, Fusion and plasma Weapons, AI's (lack there of), cyber technology (lack thereof), biological modification, Interstellar Feudalism etc etc? To varying degrees, these things are assumed in every set of Traveller RULES. Snip away THESE bits of the "optional 'Imperium' background" leaves some major holes... as both T:TNE and T4 acknowledged, hence FF&S and it's entries for variant technologies...

Here is where I think you had me a bit confused. When I hear people talk about "no background", I had assumed that they meant no "history" (i.e. no Imperium), but that the technological base remained (e.g. jump). If you get rid of the underlying technology, then (to me, anyway) you cease to have Traveller. All you really have at that point is a generic SF roleplaying game.

And at that point, what you are effectively asking is for a new "GURPS" or "D20" that uses better mechanics. While I agree that is a good request, that is a pretty tall order.</font>[/QUOTE]Sadly I think your last paragraph is indeed partly what I am saying. Depressingly, I think your last sentence is spot on!

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Gallowglass:

But I (and a number of others) think that a promsinging line of game development that ran from CT to MT, was sidelined by the GDW House System, and nearly lived again in T4, only needs thet right pulling together of material (some already published) to produce an outstanding SF RPG game that most Traveller players would find very familiar whilst also being able to adapt to settings very different to the OTU.

Didn't this GDW House System evolve from CT and MT though? *checks TNE* Oh, I didn't realise it was a bit different - still has the Easy/Average/Difficult etc difficulty levels, just with different dice. Fair enough.

But then, T5 is increasingly likely to be an aspiration rather than a product: the commercial realties are that whilst GT, T20 and the CT reprints continue it is hard to see there being sufficient market to make a T5 viable on the Traveller name alone, and there is no White Knight in the wings waiting to swoop down and bank roll T5 (and given what happened last time...)

That's the thing - much of the T5 yearning that goes on here strikes me as being on the same level of "here's what I'd do if I was rich" - entirely pie-in-the-sky dreaming, most of which seems to be about 80% CT nostalgia and 20% not having a clue about what would work in the modern RPG market.

If people want to dream about T5 then that's fine, but they can't expect to be taken seriously if their ideas are so impractical. For example, I'd imagine that if it really was just a case of updating some of the CT rules and slapping it all in new T5 LBBs, then Marc Miller and co. would have done it a long time ago - but they didn't.

 

[Prometheus]

yawn boring!

 

[Dynamo]

Dr. Evil has it right... it is pie in the sky dreaming. I personally hate Gurps, hate with a passion! GURPS traveller has none of the lets create a character and see where his path leads me. And thats the big dissapointment for me, now if everyone wants to play retired imperial marines they can at the expense of Merchant, Nobles, etc without the randomness of Traveller.

Lets face it the character creation system was the heart and soul of traveller and Gurps doesnt cut it. I cant comment on d-20 because I dont have it yet but I doubt it cuts it either.. ..

transmission break due to solar flaring.

 

[thomryng]

Originally posted by Dynamo:
GURPS traveller has none of the lets create a character and see where his path leads me... I cant comment on d-20 because I dont have it yet...

I don't like GURPS either, but T20 char gen certainly does have the Traveller "feel", at least to me and my gaming group.

As one of my players puts it: "Traveller - the game so tough your character can die before he's finished..."

cheers,

thom

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Valerian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dynamo:
GURPS traveller has none of the lets create a character and see where his path leads me... I cant comment on d-20 because I dont have it yet...

I don't like GURPS either, but T20 char gen certainly does have the Traveller "feel", at least to me and my gaming group.
</font>[/QUOTE]I think T20 would be much more similar to CT if the levels were ditched completely, but the careers remained. So your careers would tell you how many XP/skill points/whatever that you get per term, and you had free reign to pick from any list you liked.

Or even better, if your chosen career used that class' skill/feat list for the entire term. Much easier than all that messing around with multiclassing, I think

As one of my players puts it: "Traveller - the game so tough your character can die before he's finished..."

I'm amazed at how many people think of this as a "feature" of CT rather than as a "bug". Must be down to nostalgia or something. I remember being rather pissed off when I tried making a Scout character years ago with CT, only to find that he got randomly killed in his 5th term (after I'd spent half an hour rolling him up). I landed up fudging the roll anyway so he survived...

 

[Dynamo]

A PDF version of Traveller is a BAD idea. Unless you don't feel like paying for it. PDF's get traded around like MP3's on file share services. If you don't beive me go to Kazaa type in traveller in the documents seach and pick up the issues of travellers aide and T20 lite that are being uploaded. If T20 had been a PDF it would be availible too.

As for characters we always played with an injury discharge rule instead of death (2nd edition gave us that option) which always seemed like a good choice to me.
I love the traveller character creation system because I have to work to explain why my marine Lt of five terms has gambling, electrician, medical, pilot watercraft, tactics and leadership while my friend has 2 ranks of rifle, 2 of heavy weapons and one pilot hovercraft.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Dynamo:
A PDF version of Traveller is a BAD idea. Unless you don't feel like paying for it. PDF's get traded around like MP3's on file share services. If you don't beive me go to Kazaa type in traveller in the documents seach and pick up the issues of travellers aide and T20 lite that are being uploaded. If T20 had been a PDF it would be availible too.

Maybe it would, but bear in mind that hardcopy books have been scanned in, made into PDFs and made illegally available on P2P systems too. It's no reason to not do it though, and there are ways to protect against it (or there probably will be soon).

 

[William]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dynamo:

Maybe it would, but bear in mind that hardcopy books have been scanned in, made into PDFs and made illegally available on P2P systems too. It's no reason to not do it though, and there are ways to protect against it (or there probably will be soon).[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Or assume, like Baen Books and it's free library, that since they will be traded they are essentially free advertising for the dead tree version. Every one of the Harrington books can be freely had. Doesn't seem to be hurting the sales of "War of Honor". Let's face it - do you want to use PDFs or even their printouts at the gaming table or a decently printed book?

I suppose it also depends on what you're doing. Since I almost never actually use GURPS (shudder), I could have gotten by with a kazaa copy of Basic rather than the one I bought that does nothing but gather dust. OTOH, a copy of any of the Traveller books wouldn't be useful at the gaming table so even if I downloaded something, it would be an adjuct rather than a replacement.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Those who will buy will buy irregardless of the downloaded copy they may also have; those who won't buy still won't buy even if they can't download a copy. The producer has lost nothing.

William

 

[Dynamo]

I beg to differ, yes you can download a scanned book, but it takes a certain perverse dedication to rip open the spine of a book seperate each page and scan them when your talking about a 200 or a 400 page book. Thats why you cant get a T20 scan... yet.
For small stuff or advertizing PDF's are fine. Someone in this thread (or was it the Bring back the LBB's) mentioned that RPG companies work on limited funds. To spend months or years working on a PDF version only to have it traded rampently would be a waste. It would be traded rampently too, because gamers are poor. It why most of the law abiding people I know own at least 50 pirated games. Yeah a small percentage of people will pay for the PDF LBB's, but you wont get many repeat sales either. Imagine a GM downloading the PDF and then sharing the file with all his players (who would copy it) so you can discount repeat sales to a group of players. Plus the size books your talking about 60 pg LBB's come out to 30 double sided pages (a cinch for a gm to run off 5 copies for his or her players) which could be take to Kinkos and run off without anyone being the wiser. With the advent of WISIWIG printing its just too easy for everyone to copy.
Game companies wont do it, they have to make back some money.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Dynamo:
I beg to differ, yes you can download a scanned book, but it takes a certain perverse dedication to rip open the spine of a book seperate each page and scan them when your talking about a 200 or a 400 page book. Thats why you cant get a T20 scan... yet.
For small stuff or advertizing PDF's are fine. Someone in this thread (or was it the Bring back the LBB's) mentioned that RPG companies work on limited funds. To spend months or years working on a PDF version only to have it traded rampently would be a waste. It would be traded rampently too, because gamers are poor. It why most of the law abiding people I know own at least 50 pirated games. Yeah a small percentage of people will pay for the PDF LBB's, but you wont get many repeat sales either. Imagine a GM downloading the PDF and then sharing the file with all his players (who would copy it) so you can discount repeat sales to a group of players. Plus the size books your talking about 60 pg LBB's come out to 30 double sided pages (a cinch for a gm to run off 5 copies for his or her players) which could be take to Kinkos and run off without anyone being the wiser. With the advent of WISIWIG printing its just too easy for everyone to copy.
Game companies wont do it, they have to make back some money.

The same thing happens for lots of other 'intangible' things though - music (Mp3s) and software (warez) being the most major. Yet people still produce music and still produce software that one must pay for. The majority of people buy their stuff legally, and the same goes in the RPG industry too. It's a greater risk that one has to take when one publishes as PDF, but from what I'm seeing on on of the threads on the topic at rpg.net, some people do still make a fair bit of money from their products, so something's obviously working right.

 

[Dynamo]

Im just saying a physical book would be a better Idea than a PDF. My opinon is that it would sell better and be accessible by many more people than PDF's.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Dynamo:
Im just saying a physical book would be a better Idea than a PDF. My opinon is that it would sell better and be accessible by many more people than PDF's.

I agree that a physical book probably would be more accessible to people than a PDF, but as for the "selling better" part... well, see previous posts.

Of course, we may be pretty biased on CotI. There's certainly a vocal group here that wants to see a T5, but the more important question is "do the rest of the RPG-buying public want it too"? If it were to be released now, it would be directly competing with G:T, T20, and CT for shelfspace, and anyone new to Traveller is more likely to just wander off in complete confusion than to pick any of them up. That said, there are no full Traveller RPGs available on PDF, so maybe there's more of a chance that someone random can pick it up if it was a PDF.

 

[Dynamo]

Actually almost every CT book ever made is availible as a PDF, I have collected a fair number when I couldn't find the physical book. Back when It looked like T-20 would never be made and Gurps wasn't going to renew Marc encourage people to photocopy or electronically copy all the old classics. People took it to heart which is why I have books 0-8 PDF and S-1-8 PDF's (I also have the classic reprints but thats because I like the physical book.) Its nice having the PDF's but they suck compared to a physical book. Most people hate e-books because without a perfectly sized screen you find yourself scrolling and scrolling.

 

[Gallowglass]

The Evil Doctor wrote:

I agree that a physical book probably would be more accessible to people than a PDF, but as for the "selling better" part... well, see previous posts.

Pretty much every statement I have seen from RPG publishers involved with PDF publishing indicates that dead tree out sells electrons EVERY time. Now those statements have mostly come from d20 publishers... but they are pretty much the only segment of the RPG market even trying to sell PDF's at present, presumably because thats the only market segment big enough...

The Evil Doctor continued:

Of course, we may be pretty biased on CotI. There's certainly a vocal group here that wants to see a T5, but the more important question is "do the rest of the RPG-buying public want it too"? If it were to be released now, it would be directly competing with G:T, T20, and CT for shelfspace, and anyone new to Traveller is more likely to just wander off in complete confusion than to pick any of them up. That said, there are no full Traveller RPGs available on PDF, so maybe there's more of a chance that someone random can pick it up if it was a PDF.

That ANY web community is representative of the wider population is highly doubtful but that cuts BOTH ways: just because the T5 partisans are a vocal minority here doesn't mean they aren't the silent majority of actual gamers... ( Nice dream!

)

More importantly, I think (as QLI and others have done) the true role of PDF's is as Web enhancements and supplemental material. I still think the BEST, MOST PRACTICAL option for T5 is a subscription financed dead tree option. But given the erratic history of print-on-demand and the problems of decent editing, it would require meticuluous planning and management...*

But small print presses DO survive, at least as well as as small RPG companies, so dead tree is viable.

And PDF's of actual books are a nice back up, or for doing an extract from, but nothing beats paper in your hand...

*Think about the T20 pre-orders

 

[Ron]

Regarding PDFs, it appears that very few people are actually making any money from them. Check this thread at EN World.

It appears that most PDF don't sell more than 100 copies, which is too low to justify the investment needed to write them. Only a few products achieved the 500 mark.

If those numbers are representative, PDF publishing doesn't appear to be a healthy market to be explored, at least not in the scale needed to launch a new edition of Traveller.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Ron:
Regarding PDFs, it appears that very few people are actually making any money from them. Check this thread at EN World.

It appears that most PDF don't sell more than 100 copies, which is too low to justify the investment needed to write them. Only a few products achieved the 500 mark.

If those numbers are representative, PDF publishing doesn't appear to be a healthy market to be explored, at least not in the scale needed to launch a new edition of Traveller.

Also check this thread on RPG.net:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25644&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

It seems that if you can sell 100-500 copies, you're making a fair bit of money actually (if you're a small operation that is). I'm not entirely convinced that a T5 would sell more than that anyway, particularly not in the current environment.

 

[Murph]

What about the CD-ROM idea like BAEN did for the last Honor Harrington novel? Put all the LBBs and Megatraveller material on one of those.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Murph:
What about the CD-ROM idea like BAEN did for the last Honor Harrington novel? Put all the LBBs and Megatraveller material on one of those.

Someone suggested something similar for BP on the Blue Planet discussion boards, and I'll say the same thing here as I did there: that unless someone spends the time to interlink everything and construct all the necessary indices and databases, then it won't really be worth the effort.

IMHO a decent electronic copy of a game isn't just about slapping it all on a CD and letting the reader find his way through it - it's about using the medium to its fullest and making the information as accessible as possible.