Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)

[tbeard1999]

Yes but...

...there are ways to present criticism that do not involve insulting people and acting like an arrogant jerk. (I am not saying you have done either of these, but some have).

Oh, I'm sure I have. Arrogance often being in the eye of the beholder...

...after a certain point, when you have made your criticism known, say, three or four times, it's time to give it a rest.

I don't necessarily agree. "The squeaky hinge gets the oil..." is a truism in business.

...finally, some "candid feedback" around here has been motivated not by a desire to see the game made better, but by a desire to denigrate said game and those who play it.

I don't possess a mind reading machine, so I can't test your claims. In any case, the motives of a critic are largely irrelevant to the accuracy of his criticism. IMHO, of course.

No one that I have seen has advocated mindless acceptance of Mongoose Traveller's flaws (and yes, they do exist). I do feel though that supporting the line (which includes, yes, constructive criticism) makes a lot more sense than the egotistical agendas that we have seen in even threads designed to be positive about the game. Fortunatley, these are only a very few people out of those who have commented.

Well, I think that some folks seem awfully invested in quashing *any* criticism of MGT. What perplexes me is why they bother (I'm convinced that most of them have no financial stake in the game or in Mongoose).

In any case, the project I'm working on may somehow bring the light and dark sides of Traveller into balance. At the very least, it will shut *me* up re canon gripes.

Just call me Vader. Lord Vader.

 

[tbeard1999]

Allen,

Egotistical agendas? Let's talk about egotistical agendas...

Hey now, don't mention me; I'm not in this fight!

 

[Colin]

Gygax's wife also effectively sued GDW into oblivion. Even if she never sued them directly, her efforts to get Gary saw GDW staff swamped by trying to prepare and deliver statements at a time when they should have been preparing and delivering product. Couple that with the gaming meltdown in the early 1990's and GDW folded. (There is somewhat more to it than that, but without her efforts, GDW may very well have survived. Then again, maybe not.)

So either it's a bad simile, or else a thinly-veiled act of malice.

Matt,

Gygax's ex-wife began a process that took D&D from what was essentially a handcrafted, hobbyist run business setting and put it on the path towards being part of a professionally run business. That's an improvement.

Suggesting your role may be the same isn't being rude.


Regards,
Bill

 

[captainjack]

The two Steams helped a great deal though!


Regards,
Bill

That is what they are for ! Try Anchor's Liberty Ale -judging by what yoiu like in a beer, it should fit the bill...

 

[captainjack]

So, I got interested in the contention that the pro and anti MGT sides belittle each other (yes, I'm taking for granted right now that there are sides). So, I looked thru the thread for instances of Other bashing, and applied airly liberal criterea to both sides (and yes, I included my own posts as needed)

Out of about 400 posts, about 17 fit the criterea of stigmatizing, insulting or generally belittling those who disagree with the posters side as a group. about 10 and 7 pro vs anti. (one seemed to damn all sides); so for the "belittling complaint, its its close to 3:2 insults generated by the pro:anti sides, I'd also note that overall, the "group stigma" posts are only a small percentage of the whole (4.25%). In each case, one poster on each side accounted for at least 50% of that sides posts; and often directed at each other.

At least 20 posts make a point of insulting MgT (the company) as a group; obviously, all of these are on one side.

At which point I gave up strict counting for fear my spleen would burst with dismay.

Most of the accustatory or belittling content of the thread (which probably is less than 25%, counting a post with any countable content)
is aimed by an individual, at an individual, decrying lack of various knowlege or social skills, politeness, intellectual honesty, etc (both sides pretty even, but there are about half as many on the anti side) .

For a godwin estimate, we have had no comparisons to Hitler, and only one close brush with Nazi.

What does this mean ?
1. It means I'm bored and waiting for a report to land on my desk.
2. much of the purported quashing and threadcrapping accusations seem realistically to be directed at specific individuals, rather than the criticism (or promotion) itself.
3. Similalry, where hostile comments are aimed at content, it is primarily with regard to the form of the post,and the use of emotionally laden wording (both sides)
4. Within a small subset includeding both sides, there are some of us who do not play well with the others in said subset.
5. There are more pro than anti; but the anti works much harder. I'd also argue that they are better at adversarial debate, if such a comment can be taken in a non-insulting way.

Personally, I am delighted that several key points have precipitated out of this.

Ooops ! It landed on my desk. Later.

 

[fiat_knox]

They may have skill at adversarial debate, but that is not to say that their argument is in the right. Quite the opposite, as the evidence of Mongoose Traveller's key role in the resurgence of this august game would infer.

And my part in this whole thing is to bring that evidence to light, and to ensure that the actual record of success of the modern game suffers no lasting effects from attempts to sully it, or to cheapen the name of those who would defend the achievements of those who have brought Traveller back into the light.

 

[captainjack]

They may have skill at adversarial debate, but that is not to say that their argument is in the right. Quite the opposite, as the evidence of Mongoose Traveller's key role in the resurgence of this august game would infer.

The data provided cannot possibly determine right or wrong; it is purely descriptive, with some minimal interpretation on my part.

Caveat:This analysis is for legal display and entertainment purposes only. The writer and analyst assumes no responsibility for illegal, immoral or blatantly retarded use of said analysis. Do not base crucial decisions upon it without seeking out and receiving second opinions from a knowlegable source. Use at own risk. Trained use is required for best results. Do not use as a step or a striking object. Not a food product, not to be used internally or topically, keep out of eyes; do not vaporize and inhale. Persons under the age of 18 should be supervised while using.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.
TSAR associates

(Trivial Statistics Associates of Remulaque)

 

[atpollard]

Personally, I am delighted that several key points have precipitated out of this.

I'd be interested in hearing a summary of "Key Points".

(And I'll keep it away from exposed skin, just to be safe. )

 

[Icosahedron]

Consider this. . .

Have you ever made a mistake in your professional life at all?

Now. . . Did you know you were making a mistake at the time?


Okay, okay, that is a circular argument

Then the future is rosy for both Mongoose and Traveller players.

 

[Whipsnade]

Gygax's wife also effectively sued GDW into oblivion.

Colin,

The discussion wasn't about the ex-Mrs. Gygax's role in the GDW/Traveller story. The discussion was about what Mongoose Matt's role would be in the TSR/D&D story.

Doc suggested Matt's role would be akin to the roles of Gygax and Arneson. I objected because I feel Matt's role would best be described as a business one and not a founding one.

The ex-Mrs. Gygax was instrumental in transforming TSR from an amateurish group of well meaning hobbyists who had driven D&D over one million dollars in debt into an actual profitable business which was worthy of both investment and out right purchase.

Ms. William did most of that work, but the ex-Mrs. Gygax played her part too. If I'd been writing an essay instead of quickly replying to a post on a chat board, I would have taken the time to look up Williams name and explain to those who didn't know who she was just what her accomplishments are. Instead, I used the ex-Mrs. Gygax because I knew her name and knew everyone would know her name and what she did for TSR and D&D.

So either it's a bad simile, or else a thinly-veiled act of malice.

It was a bad simile only.

It was a bad simile on my part because I should have taken the time to use Ms. Williams as my example rather than the ex-Mrs. Gygax.

It was also a mistaken assumption on your part, and on the part of whoever bitched to you, because you both thought I was referring to Mrs. Gygax's effect on GDW and Traveller when the conversation was actually about TSR and D&D.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Allensh]

Colin,

The discussion wasn't about the ex-Mrs. Gygax's role in the GDW/Traveller story. The discussion was about what Mongoose Matt's role would be in the TSR/D&D story.

Doc suggested Matt's role would be akin to the roles of Gygax and Arneson. I objected because I feel Matt's role would best be described as a business one and not a founding one.

The ex-Mrs. Gygax was instrumental in transforming TSR from an amateurish group of well meaning hobbyists who had driven D&D over one million dollars in debt into an actual profitable business which was worthy of both investment and out right purchase.

Ms. William did most of that work, but the ex-Mrs. Gygax played her part too. If I'd been writing an essay instead of quickly replying to a post on a chat board, I would have taken the time to look up Williams name and explain to those who didn't know who she was just what her accomplishments are. Instead, I used the ex-Mrs. Gygax because I knew her name and knew everyone would know her name and what she did for TSR and D&D.



It was a bad simile only.

It was a bad simile on my part because I should have taken the time to use Ms. Williams as my example rather than the ex-Mrs. Gygax.

It was also a mistaken assumption on your part, and on the part of whoever bitched to you, because you both thought I was referring to Mrs. Gygax's effect on GDW and Traveller when the conversation was actually about TSR and D&D.


Regards,
Bill

Your version of events at TSR and who drove the company into near bankruptcy is seriously at odds with everything I have ever read on the subject.

Allen

 

[dmccoy1693]

Stuff

If you're comparing Mongoose in a business sense, I'd suggest something substantially closer would be Wizards of the Coast. Ms. Williams was anything but good for D&D and made the game so irrelevant that White Wolf became the industry leader and (later) the market leader, for a time. It was Wizards that made good business decisions to make D&D a popular game again.

Traveller is popular, like how D&D was at the start of 3E. Its probably more popular now than it has at single point in time in its history (although I am sure that some could argue CT over its entire life). That popularity is thanks to Mongoose.

 

[Allensh]

If you're comparing Mongoose in a business sense, I'd suggest something substantially closer would be Wizards of the Coast. Ms. Williams was anything but good for D&D and made the game so irrelevant that White Wolf became the industry leader and (later) the market leader, for a time. It was Wizards that made good business decisions to make D&D a popular game again.

Traveller is popular, like how D&D was at the start of 3E. Its probably more popular now than it has at single point in time in its history (although I am sure that some could argue CT over its entire life). That popularity is thanks to Mongoose.

Oddly enough, I have to take issue with some of this I remember 1979-1983 when Traveller was THE standard for sci-fi games. In our group, we dabbled in Space Opera, but Traveller was the game we actually played when we did sci-fi. I think RPGing in general may have been more "popular" back then than it is now. So I would say that CT -at first- was very popular..and it was of course the only Traveller back then AND gaming choices were, on the whole, more limited.

It was actually a product by a former Traveller licensee that sort of killed Traveller for us for awhile...the FASA Star Trek RPG.

Allen

 

[dmccoy1693]

I think RPGing in general may have been more "popular" back then than it is now.

I vaguely remember one of the upper people at Wizards (could be wrong on the reference) saying that RPGing this decade is vastly more popular than it was back in the 80's. I don't know personally. I haven't seen the numbers myself.

So I would say that CT -at first- was very popular

I'll concede the possibility. Like I said I haven't seen the numbers. But I do know that it is much, much easier for a company to start today and reach customers than it was back in the 80's. A company my scale wouldn't have existed back in the day. Today they're common. I would argue that the hobby is much more fragmented than it was back in the 80's, but is vastly more popular.

 

[Allensh]

I vaguely remember one of the upper people at Wizards (could be wrong on the reference) saying that RPGing this decade is vastly more popular than it was back in the 80's. I don't know personally. I haven't seen the numbers myself.



I'll concede the possibility. Like I said I haven't seen the numbers. But I do know that it is much, much easier for a company to start today and reach customers than it was back in the 80's. A company my scale wouldn't have existed back in the day. Today they're common. I would argue that the hobby is much more fragmented than it was back in the 80's, but is vastly more popular.

That could well be true...and of course computers and desktop publishing help with that a lot

I need to check out some of your products

In any event, I do feel that Mongoose Traveller is bringing Traveller back into the consciousness of the general RPG public. I go to other message boards like RPG.net and I see it mentioned a lot. There are detractors there too, of course <g> but they seem outnumbered by people who like it and are actually playing it.

Allen

 

[dmccoy1693]

I need to check out some of your products

First hit's free.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Actually the hobby named PnP is dying. Numbers at conventions are down, numbers at regular player meetings are down and shops are either dying of supplementing themselves massively. The future is in MMORPG and similar systems.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Actually the hobby named PnP is dying.

Even then, I semi-doubt that.

Numbers at conventions are down, numbers at regular player meetings are down and shops are either dying of supplementing themselves massively.

Shops numbers are down because books are available at better prices (generally) from Amazon. Mind you, Mongoose goes out of their way to support the FLGSs, but I also heard that over three quarters of all 4e sales were through Amazon.

Convention numbers are down, but how many people do you talk with online every day that you would probably never talk to 20 years ago except at a convention. Plus how many Indy gaming conventions are there? Are indy games really represented at Origins or GenCon? (I don't know, I've never been there, but I can't imagine The Forge having a large of a play area as Pathfinder or D&D 4E). So that's a whole segment of the industry that is not being catered to as well as it could be.

Ryan Dancey recently commented that if 3e had the sales numbers that 4e had (much lower than 3e's, supposedly), he'd have to resign. But how much in the way of gaming dollars are being spent at drivethrurpg on games that probably never make it to print from game companies that didn't exist even 5 years ago. Every dollar spent there is money that would have been spent 20 years ago at a gaming store on D&D simply because there was no alternative. With a much more fragmented market, sales will be lower. And there's no way a FLGS can carry every conceivable game, profitably. Those that survive either diversify or offer something that you can't get at amazon. (What that latter one is, I don't know.)

The future is in MMORPG and similar systems.

Oh this definitely is the future. No doubt about it. Adopting a more computerized model is going to be necessary for any company to survive the next 20 years. While models like RPGXplorer is a great idea for rules intense d20 games, games like traveller could be well served with a simple yahoo voice chat room and an online dice roller.

 

[mbrinkhues]

There are only "Independent" conventions in Germany with the old RatCon being a partial exception. Conventions are generally open to whatever one is offering also at RatCon "non-FanPro" games had a tendency to end up near the toilets. "Ein Schelm, wer Arges dabei denkt".

And numbers are down/stagnating across the board with a lot of conventions dead or dying that where active 10-15 years ago. Where in 1990 it was 200 or 300 persons today it's 50-100 for the smaller ones.

And Mail-order for RPG stuff isn't as big a market over here either, distances are a lot shorter. If you order online it's often done through the E-Shop of an FLGS. And even there orders are down across the board. More than one shop owner has switched from "RPG with add-on stuff" to "Wargames/Miniatures/Trading cards with RPG add-on" to make ends meet.

Same with the "meet weekly" RPG groups and RPG "Vereine" like GFR. Dead, decaying or dying. Where we once had 20-30 players an evening (and problems finding chairs) a "full" evening is 10 people.

Older people drop out and the "DnD crowd" is no longer. The good ole Dungon Crawl that once supplied new players is now done in WoW or games like NWN-2. Where once you introduced 5-10 players a year to the games and kept 2-3 you now are lucky if you GET 2-3 new ones to show up and keep one every other year.

 

[aramis]

Michael: it's different here. The local Anchorage cons are still one a year, and still pack. I can't speak to the national ones directly, but it's pretty apparent that they are doing well; the bankruptcy court didn't restructure GenCon, just put them into receivership. (In short, not letting them squader the income as they previously had.)

I can tell you that, in the high schools, PnP RPGs are MORE popular than in 1984-87.
Chugiak HS, 1984, had 4 RPG groups meeting over lunch; Traveller (later T2K 1E), Palladium, AD&D 1E, and Star Frontiers. My last trip down the halls, in 2007, there were 7 groups playing. One group was even playing AD&D 2E... And another Palladium Fantasy 1st ed. 2 WWG, 1 i have no clue, and 3 more various d20.

East Anchorage HS, in 1986-87 had some 5 groups (I knew players in 4 of them) at lunch; in 2007, I encountered more than a dozen groups, and it was no longer "what's D&D?" but "Oh, yeah, there's two groups playing that..."