BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Not to mention a French marine biologist purchasing an ex-Royal Navy minesweeper (that had been given to the British by the USN) and converting it to a research vessel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RV_Calypso
Why wouldanyone want a Type-Y?
- Thread starter Sir Brad
- Start date
Not to mention a French marine biologist purchasing an ex-Royal Navy minesweeper (that had been given to the British by the USN) and converting it to a research vessel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RV_Calypso
salochin999
SOC-13
When looking at the Bk 2 ships I think it's worth thinking in terms of eras and time i.e. what ships would have been in the past at TL9, TL10, TL11 etc.
In the early years of space expansion a type Y would be worth its weight in gold as systems were just being explored by the scout service and any noble who had their own ship could follow close behind prospecting and staking claims on the most valuable bits or even just taking important guests to see the new sights.
As TL advances yachts would advance also imo so if I was looking at yachts I'd be looking at designing a Y9, Y10, Y11 etc version.
In which case the Bk 2 type Y would just be the cheapest available.
.
The second thing is cost - when the setting was at TL9 a civilian type Y might only be affordable to a wealthy Duke or equivalent but by TL15 a wealthy Duke's yacht could be massive and a Bk2 yacht something wealthy knights can afford.
.
Both of those points might imply it's a bit obsolete but
.
Thirdly there's civilian vs official - some yachts may be handed out as part of a job e.g. the Knight-Inspector of Outer Rim Orbital Defences Regina might get an official yacht to perform their duties. The size of these official yachts could vary with the status of the job with the book 2 version the most basic.
That could be how many of them get into the market - custom made civilian yachts for the very wealthy or official yachts sold off as surplus and snapped up by the lesser nobility.
.
Personally I really like the idea of massive yachts at the top end, both civilian ones for the Atreides type noble families and official ones for Dukes and official roles like Count-Ambassador to the Zhodani - with design focused on defense, speed and looking impressive
but also crappier ones at the bottom end for officials like fuel depot Knight-Inspectors and the Knight-Ambassador to Crout.
In the early years of space expansion a type Y would be worth its weight in gold as systems were just being explored by the scout service and any noble who had their own ship could follow close behind prospecting and staking claims on the most valuable bits or even just taking important guests to see the new sights.
As TL advances yachts would advance also imo so if I was looking at yachts I'd be looking at designing a Y9, Y10, Y11 etc version.
In which case the Bk 2 type Y would just be the cheapest available.
.
The second thing is cost - when the setting was at TL9 a civilian type Y might only be affordable to a wealthy Duke or equivalent but by TL15 a wealthy Duke's yacht could be massive and a Bk2 yacht something wealthy knights can afford.
.
Both of those points might imply it's a bit obsolete but
.
Thirdly there's civilian vs official - some yachts may be handed out as part of a job e.g. the Knight-Inspector of Outer Rim Orbital Defences Regina might get an official yacht to perform their duties. The size of these official yachts could vary with the status of the job with the book 2 version the most basic.
That could be how many of them get into the market - custom made civilian yachts for the very wealthy or official yachts sold off as surplus and snapped up by the lesser nobility.
.
Personally I really like the idea of massive yachts at the top end, both civilian ones for the Atreides type noble families and official ones for Dukes and official roles like Count-Ambassador to the Zhodani - with design focused on defense, speed and looking impressive
but also crappier ones at the bottom end for officials like fuel depot Knight-Inspectors and the Knight-Ambassador to Crout.
IRL all but the most high end Steam Yachts where built on the same hulls as Tramp Steamers with re-worked super structures and the Crew, Staff & Servants stuffed down in part of a converted hold space. as where lots of Oiler Yachts until about the 70's with the introduction of the "Super Yachts".
Edit: though they where built of the same Hulls as their commercial counterparts the Yachts where built as Yachts.
also Hold space on Yachts was important since it was used for extended cruising and for Cost defrayment, Rich Folks and poor titled types would courier for each other and for their favorite Hotels, Resorts, Casinos ect.
Edit: though they where built of the same Hulls as their commercial counterparts the Yachts where built as Yachts.
also Hold space on Yachts was important since it was used for extended cruising and for Cost defrayment, Rich Folks and poor titled types would courier for each other and for their favorite Hotels, Resorts, Casinos ect.
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esampson
SOC-13
Yes, there will be exceptions to the rule. That's why I didn't say 'you'll never see..'. However the number of cargo vehicles converted into yachts is tiny compared to the number of yachts that were originally built as yachts, and a large part of the reason for that is because of the image.
I should also point out that there's a world of difference in image between converting a cargo hauler and a military vessel, even if that military vessel was only a mine sweeper. A military vessel carries a connotation with it of being strong and tough. A cargo vessel carries a connotation of work.
And that's the big thing about a yacht. A yacht is a status symbol. It says 'I've got so much money that I can afford a space ship. I've got so much money I can afford it outright and it doesn't need to be used for something as trivial as work. Maybe it isn't as fast as a 'working' vessel (or aircraft, in the real world), but that's all right because I shouldn't be hurrying anywhere. People should be waiting for me.'
A research vessel is a completely different thing from a yacht. A research vessel is a 'working ship' while the whole point of a yacht is about luxury (and not working). Sure, there are people who own yachts and the yacht has the facilities to do research work, but that's not the same thing at all. The research isn't what is financing the vessel. It is something the vessel's owner 'chooses' to do. It's the difference between being a carpenter and being a rich guy who does woodworking as a hobby.
esampson
SOC-13
From Wikipedia:
The first is a luxury yacht in the modern sense—a vessel owned privately and used for pleasure or non-commercial purposes. Steam yachts of this type came to prominence from the 1840s to the early-20th century in Europe. The first British royal yacht was Victoria & Albert of 1843. The first in the USA, Vanderbilt's steam yacht North Star, launched in 1854. steam yachts were commissioned by wealthy individuals and often heads of state as extravagant symbols of wealth and/or power.They were usually built with similar hull-lines to clipper ships, with an ornate bow structure and a low, smooth freeboard.
There's an enormous difference in 'built with similar hull-lines' and 'built on the same hulls'. These were vessels constructed from the ground up to be yachts, not repurposed vessels.
Now there may be some confusion because at the time there were two other uses of the name 'steam yacht'.
Again, from Wikipedia:
The English steamboat entrepreneur George Dodd (1783–1827) used the term "steam yacht" on 16 May 1817 albeit in describing PS Thames, ex Duke of Argyle. She was one of the five passenger steamboats then under Dodd's direction, and his description was used in an effort to advertise how luxurious these vessels were-for the general public. . .
. . .Those of the second class of steam yacht were built for commercial use, but gained the 'yacht' title due to their size and design similarity with the private vessels and because they were not constructed to be mainly cargo- or passenger-carrying vessels, but as versatile, low-draft ships capable of working local coastal routes. This is closer to the original meaning of the word "yacht", coming from the Dutch term Jacht, describing a small, fast commercial vessel.
. . .Those of the second class of steam yacht were built for commercial use, but gained the 'yacht' title due to their size and design similarity with the private vessels and because they were not constructed to be mainly cargo- or passenger-carrying vessels, but as versatile, low-draft ships capable of working local coastal routes. This is closer to the original meaning of the word "yacht", coming from the Dutch term Jacht, describing a small, fast commercial vessel.
However, both of those cases are referring to commercial vessels (going so far as to clearly misappropriate the word in one case just because of its connotations) and are nothing like a noble's yacht in terms of function.
casquilho
SOC-13
For me, the idea of a space ship yacht is sort of like a real world "Exotic Car". They are clearly for showing off, but they are not all the same. I buy a Maserati Ghibli at about $80k and I can say I own an Exotic Car. But when my buddy pulls up in his Lamborghini Veneno Roadster that goes for something north of $4.5 million dollars US and we all know who has the real money.
I land in a Type-Y and they know someone with money has landed, but the custom 800 ton one of a kind Yacht that shows up later that day, well we all know who falls where on the power/money latter don't we. :rofl:
I land in a Type-Y and they know someone with money has landed, but the custom 800 ton one of a kind Yacht that shows up later that day, well we all know who falls where on the power/money latter don't we. :rofl:
Yes, yes we do.
Second, the dip in the 200-ton standard can wait till an official reception, but the Nob who spent money to get a serious working noble's ship gets to meet me pretty much as soon as they call. I respect a person who goes the extra klick.
On the other hand I am going to try and interest them in laying out the cash for true 800-ton yacht. Got one on the pad, care to check it out?
First off, I will happily, okay I will ride in your Maserati long before I let the former tractor company wreck my back.
Second, the dip in the 200-ton standard can wait till an official reception, but the Nob who spent money to get a serious working noble's ship gets to meet me pretty much as soon as they call. I respect a person who goes the extra klick.
On the other hand I am going to try and interest them in laying out the cash for true 800-ton yacht. Got one on the pad, care to check it out?
CliffBates
SOC-12
In the world of the 3rd imperium, especially in its last quarter (if you accept the Rebellion happened) is one where the Yacht makes lots of sense. Do you need to be that well armed in the Core or Central areas of the imperium? You need it to get your pals and court to here and there and have a place to host guest if your visiting people officially. A yacht is as much a mobile office/court for a noble so that when they go visit people or inspect places they have some authority over (or where the Empire as has asked this noble to go and didn't need to yet sent in the NAVY), the Yacht is your ground whereas their office or base or ship would be theirs.
Yes they could be more sexy or faster.. but there are such yachts (or they could be made). But the Y does offer a noble his floating palace.
esampson
SOC-13
Yes, but has it occurred to you that among the elite your opinion might be in the minority? Seriously, as I understand it most of these people are suppose to have inherited their money and position. Sailing into port in a 'working vessel' might be a bit like sailing into Monaco with your oil tanker and expecting people to be impressed because your boat is bigger than theirs and you 'gone that extra klick' to show up in a serious vessel.
Of course there is some flexibility in this. Certain professions are more acceptable than others for the nobility. Sail in in the 400 ton military cruiser you own which you use in your patrol duties and the odds of you winning points because you're a 'serious person' and not a 'fop' go way up.
Old money, blah, blah.
I really do not care what useless bags of flesh care about, I am a working noble not some dingbat with more CrImps than sense. I respect work, I respect going out and doing what needs be done and I mostly respect someone who like me gives less than two spits what the posh, lazy rich yahoos care. It is not like they are doing useful stuff. To hell with the fops and useless nobs, give me a working, not caring about looking good and more about being good.
esampson
SOC-13
The problem is that there are very few truly 'useless' nobles. Power is spread out among the nobles. This means that every noble has power over those beneath them (the commoners) but as for 'true power' each one only holds a small piece of the very large puzzle. A very large part of being a 'working' noble is often building coalitions and brokering agreements.
Acting as you are acting is quite likely to have you ostracized and a noble who is ostracized and unable to work with the nobles around them is probably about the most 'useless' type of noble there is.
Nobles have, per the IL7 article, plus the JTAS 24 Justice article, VERY little real power, except upon their fief.
They have no exemption from local laws.
They make no law outside their fief†.
They have no individual judicial power outside that which is part of their fief†.
They have income from their Fief, and may dispose of some parts via lease and/or (local) subinfeudation.
They have access to the subsector moot; voice in whichever, and vote in those where they have a fief. They can serve in certain high-office positions that non-nobles may not. On the other hand, when a subsector or sector duke decides a non-noble is the best man for the job, he can ask his archduke to elevate the guy...
They have LOTS of duties -
Lots of duties, little authority. And all under the ever annoying eye of the Press.
†Excepting those few who are also the local government of the world. There are a few. Including 7 worlds for one archduke that are direct subjects of the Archduke. (See Atlas)
They have no exemption from local laws.
They make no law outside their fief†.
They have no individual judicial power outside that which is part of their fief†.
They have income from their Fief, and may dispose of some parts via lease and/or (local) subinfeudation.
They have access to the subsector moot; voice in whichever, and vote in those where they have a fief. They can serve in certain high-office positions that non-nobles may not. On the other hand, when a subsector or sector duke decides a non-noble is the best man for the job, he can ask his archduke to elevate the guy...
They have LOTS of duties -
- To inform the subsector and sector moots of the needs of their fiefs' worlds.
- To inform their archduke and the Emperor of those worthy of elevation.
- To inform the subsector and sector dukes of threats that need "imperial attention"
- To administer their fief
- To govern the people of their fief - just, fair, and within Imperial law.
- To fulfill whichever offices they may hold in the subsector or sector governments.
- To advise the local world (and system) governments on how to interface with the Imperial Government.
- To encourage local and system government to obey imperial law (and report when they refuse)
- To be an example to the common man
- To coordinate between local agencies and their imperial counterparts.
- To maintain their Huscarles, if allowed, ready for and trained to Imperial Army, Marine, and/or Navy standards, as appropriate.
Lots of duties, little authority. And all under the ever annoying eye of the Press.
†Excepting those few who are also the local government of the world. There are a few. Including 7 worlds for one archduke that are direct subjects of the Archduke. (See Atlas)
Na, it is who ya know.
Also, don't care if the fops don't dig me, Travellers will, I'm willing to get dirty. Plus I come with nice toys and Travellers love toys.
Funny what they will do for a BattleDress, legal like with papers and everything. Hell if they do a good job I may even use real papers that don't fold up and disappear in two months after they leave the system.
Plus, as a newly created high nob, we got to move around a lot, a whole lot and so I too think the 200-ton J1 Yacht is pretty bogus. But that gives me impetus to create a better version for my nobles.
And thanks Aramis for saving me a bunch of typing and doing it far better than my ranting butt would probably do so.
First off it depends on who ranks who on whether they feel like you do or not, if I rank them they are gonna suck it up to get what they want. Probably.
Also, don't care if the fops don't dig me, Travellers will, I'm willing to get dirty. Plus I come with nice toys and Travellers love toys.
Funny what they will do for a BattleDress, legal like with papers and everything. Hell if they do a good job I may even use real papers that don't fold up and disappear in two months after they leave the system. Plus, as a newly created high nob, we got to move around a lot, a whole lot and so I too think the 200-ton J1 Yacht is pretty bogus. But that gives me impetus to create a better version for my nobles.
And thanks Aramis for saving me a bunch of typing and doing it far better than my ranting butt would probably do so.
salochin999
SOC-13
A type Y would work quite well as a low level official yacht imo.
14 state rooms with 2 for the noble leaves 12.
6 for the crew - including two gunners, leaves 6.
Say two for office space and the other four for 2 assistants and 2 security.
14 state rooms with 2 for the noble leaves 12.
6 for the crew - including two gunners, leaves 6.
Say two for office space and the other four for 2 assistants and 2 security.
Well said, m'Lord!
Edit: I probably should add something useful.. the Bk 2 yacht can also be what the high nobility gift to their offspring to get them out of the house.. their first second-hand "car" to drive around.
Second-hand since's it's been mouldering around in orbit for the past 20 years with nothing much done to it. I can see all sorts of campaign possibilities for fops, petty-nobles (or whatever else you as Ref want to call your players) opening up...
esampson
SOC-13
Using that same logic an American Senator has very little power.
- They have no exemption from local laws (with the very minor exception that they cannot be detained when going to or from a congressional session).
- They individually make no law at all.
- They have no judicial power at all.
- They earn $175,000 per year (which is a nice salary but hardly what they could earn as corporate CEOs and the like).
- They have can vote in the senate.
- They can serve in certain senate positions. On the other hand, these positions give them no additional voting power.
And they have to do all of this under the eyes of the press while having to deal with re-election every 6 years.
Additionally, several of the responsibilities you list for a noble also include significant power, so rather than being a burden they are probably an asset.
- The ear of the archduke and the Emperor of those worthy of elevation (a nice carrot to offer to wealthy and/or influential commoners to convince them to do what you want).
- The ability to declare that something needs "imperial attention"
- Whatever additional powers they may hold in the subsector or sector governments.
- The power to advise the local world (and system) governments on how to interface with the Imperial Government (which is very significant, especially when combined with below).
- The power to report when local and system governments fail to obey imperial law.
- Influence between local agencies and their imperial counterparts.
- Permission to maintain their own armed forces in some occasions.
Not if you've succeeded in getting yourself ostracized. Seriously, if you're a noble who are you more likely to pay attention to, a Count who has pretty much isolated himself from the other nobles or a Baron who has firm control over a fairly substantial block of votes at the subsector moot?
But Travellers don't have any voice in the moot. It's great that they love you, but that does pretty much squat all for your power base.
Except your papers are only legal within your fief, remember? Of course if you were an influential noble then even if those papers didn't carry legal weight outside your fief they might convince people to give the Travellers a pass. After all, while they can legally refuse to acknowledge the papers they might prefer to accept them in the hopes of getting you to do them a favor in the future (something they are less likely to care about if you have isolated yourself).Plus I come with nice toys and Travellers love toys.
In short, there is a very real difference in 'power as written' and 'power as exercised'. Yes, the 'power as written' for a noble is very limited, but that's all the more reason for networking with the other nobles. It's when you do that that you are able to substantially build up 'power as exercised'. Since your average subsector seems to have about 40 systems the subsector moot probably has between 100-200 nobles (depending on how many fiefs per system you think exist). 1 vote out of 150 for things affecting an entire subsector is a pretty powerful thing. It's not enough to pass whatever you want, but it's enough to make the average people who have no votes want to stay on your good side.
On the other hand that 1 vote you control will probably mean just about jack all to someone else who also has a vote, so don't count on any other nobles to give you very much in the way of respect for that vote. However, someone who makes friends, twists arms, and has a lot of people who owe him favors who can promise 10-20 votes on a key issue? That's a guy that even the subsector Duke starts to pay attention to (because he wants to get that guy on his side since he represents a good portion of the 51% of the votes in the subsector moot that the subsector Duke is going to want to be in control of).
Of course the only way to get control of those 10-20 votes is to get respect. You can pretty much forget about buying them outright. Sure, there are going to be some votes for sale but you'll be matching your wallet against 50 other nobles plus various plutocrats. Even if you can afford a couple of votes you'll go bankrupt long before you can afford a sustained coalition.
To that end a yacht can be a tool. It is something designed to elicit respect from other nobles (and plutocrats). The small fraction it may earn you won't be enough to win their support but it might help you get a foot in the door.
On the other hand if you show up in a ship that says 'I clearly have no idea how to play the game' then why should they give you any respect or support at all? Your first impression to them is that you will never be anything more than one of those people on the fringe. Maybe you will build up a tiny coalition of a handful of votes from other fringe members if you work really hard but that just means you'll be the person that the bigger powers lean on (and I don't mean that in a positive way) when they want to bolster their numbers.
Does this mean every noble sailing around in a yacht is a Machiavellian schemer trying to build his power base? No. Odds are pretty good that he's one of those supporting guys in that block of 10-20 votes. If the subsector moot has 100 votes you can only have 5-10 guys controlling 10-20 votes, so clearly not every noble sailing a yacht is one of them. On the other hand, he is much more likely to be one of those guys then the guy sailing around in the converted merchant ship (not saying that guy in the converted merchant ship couldn't be one of those guys. Just saying that the odds go way down).
The fact is that a man who wants to act virtuously in every way necessarily comes to grief among so many who are not virtuous.
-Niccolo Machiavelli
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
The best reason for wanting a Type Y?
Got your own ship free and clear.
The interesting thing to do is MAKE the player operate it for diplomatic or hoity-toity noble playing/plotting, without turning it into a liner.
Exclusive chartering and working the same crowd as the hunter ships would be on the menu. Espionage and undercover operations too.
Got your own ship free and clear.
The interesting thing to do is MAKE the player operate it for diplomatic or hoity-toity noble playing/plotting, without turning it into a liner.
Exclusive chartering and working the same crowd as the hunter ships would be on the menu. Espionage and undercover operations too.
Patron Zero
SOC-13
A Type Y would be the perfect tool for a group of PCs running a long or short con game, especially if such is painted black with red trim.
"You ain't puttin' me on no starship, Hannibal !"
"You ain't puttin' me on no starship, Hannibal !"
Shadowrunner
SOC-12
I've never used a Type Y for characters, only as "extras" in the story. A Type Y is a bit like an Alfa Romeo Spider, it's not the highest level of luxury or performance and the design is relatively old. I'd want one to blend in, to be inconspicuous among traffic.
esampson
SOC-13
I have one more thing to add to my screed up above:
There may be a temptation to take the attitude of 'well, my noble just doesn't worry about gaining power', and that's fine. The only problem with that is that with the 100-200 other nobles in your subsector you can be fairly sure that there are other nobles who are interested in gaining power. Power is generally a zero sum game.
Even if some clever person were to come up with some incredibly clever plan to pull power from a vacuum (maybe getting the Emperor or Archduke to create additional nobles in the subsector who he can influence) he would, in doing so, increase the amount of power held among the members of the moot. Since you are not gaining any of this new power yourself the percentage of power you hold in the subsector moot would be reduced.
People think that the life of a noble is one of lounging about earning money for their lands without doing anything. If anything being a member of the nobility is probably much more like being a contestant in the Red Queen's race.
There may be a temptation to take the attitude of 'well, my noble just doesn't worry about gaining power', and that's fine. The only problem with that is that with the 100-200 other nobles in your subsector you can be fairly sure that there are other nobles who are interested in gaining power. Power is generally a zero sum game.
Even if some clever person were to come up with some incredibly clever plan to pull power from a vacuum (maybe getting the Emperor or Archduke to create additional nobles in the subsector who he can influence) he would, in doing so, increase the amount of power held among the members of the moot. Since you are not gaining any of this new power yourself the percentage of power you hold in the subsector moot would be reduced.
People think that the life of a noble is one of lounging about earning money for their lands without doing anything. If anything being a member of the nobility is probably much more like being a contestant in the Red Queen's race.
"Well, in our country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else—if you run very fast for a long time, as we've been doing."
"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
—Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
