World Memberships in the Imperium

[rancke]

is it specifically mentioned anywhere that Imperial Citizens retain voting rights in prison!?
because, well, that's just insane.

No, it isn't. So they presumably wouldn't count as the local sovereign population either. Which is the point I have been trying to make. Imperial prisoners (and guards) does not explain the presence of 90 individuals who the Imperium consider to be the sovereign population of Pixie.


Hans

 

[Ref00000]

Ah! I grok.

I think.
I tend to interpret "Scout Survey Data" as somewhat plastic, and to reflect 'the official numbers on the books, at the time of the Last Official Survey/census.'

The less than 100 running the system at Pixie could be The Noble House in residence, in system.
It could be the Staff of the Prison.
It could be, for that matter any combination of those, and "five incarcerated Nobles who retain citizenship by Imperial Exception".

Why is the low number in the UPP bugging you?
I'm genuinely curious as to your being 'troubled' by this.
Is it the fact that the {x} number of Inmates don't get counted?

why would guards not count?

 

[rancke]

Why is the low number in the UPP bugging you?
I'm genuinely curious as to your being 'troubled' by this.

It's because I don't believe in a universe where governments allow small numbers of people to lay claim to entire worlds. Oh, a few special cases are fine, but not in the numbers the world generation tables throw up.

Sure, there are some historical examples of governments allowing small populations to lay claim to small islands. But when I compare it to the number of islands that various powers have laid claim to and consider the difference in value between small islands and entire planets, I believe that most low-population worlds should to be outposts under the sovereignty of other, more populous, worlds. Mining outposts, scientific outposts, military outposts, transshipment stations, etc., etc..

And I just don't see the Imperium solemnly grant an Imperial Charter to a handful of people and granting them the same rights and protections as full-fledged member worlds.


Hans

 

[savage]

The Kinunir, p. 5.


Hans

You know Hans. Kinunir adventure states that the ship in orbit, Gaesh-Imperial Prison 17, was converted to a prison ship. It does not suggest that there are no other facilities in system. They might be onto something. The planet services a navy base and a 2nd Kinunir is stationed in system, and rotated regularly.

So, it states that Gaesh is an experiment in converting ships to penal rehabilitation. No reason to assume a primary facility is not on the planet since they'd have the resources to support an experiment.
"The orbiting prison is an interesting study in economy, converting an otherwise useless starship to an important social institution." -- Kinunir pg 41

I'd say the YTU, non-canon environment is pretty open. My only comment is that there is a very good reason someone would name it Pixie.

 

[rancke]

You know Hans. Kinunir adventure states that the ship in orbit, Gaesh-Imperial Prison 17, was converted to a prison ship. It does not suggest that there are no other facilities in system. They might be onto something. The planet services a navy base and a 2nd Kinunir is stationed in system, and rotated regularly.

Yes, I know. There is also a small shipyard and a Class A starport.


Hans

 

[Ref00000]

the reason I'm dwelling on this...

Had a little 'In Universe' fun with Pixie, recently, at my Table.

Player rolled a Noble, local to the 'Area of Operations' in Game.
I chose Pixie for a variety of reasons, most of which in truth boil down to 'haste' and a not unearned need for me to address this player's newest Noble as 'something/Pixie' (he's got that a lot. I blame my generous dice-rolling conventions equally with the player's choice}
in ANY case, I noticed the number of pop. later, along with the 'Prison System' notation after I'd already signed off and we had a long, humorous chat about what, exactly, sort of criminal you'd have to be in order to warrant the expense of shipping your criminal self to a special prison with zero chance of escape, in a whole special system, and what that entailed at Tech-Level-15.
Basically, we ended up with The Joker has a love-child with Harley Quinn, that girl breeds with the 3rd Imperium's answer to Hannibal Lecter. The resulting child has access to everything the technological society can offer by way of education, possible psionic potential, and the implications of a fully augmented/A.I. capable star-spanning Culture. hijinks ensue
you get my point...
so, hence your mention of the Pixie system grabbed my attention.

 

[savage]

Yes, I know. There is also a small shipyard and a Class A starport.


Hans

I am eluding to a larger prison facility on the planet.

 

[Ref00000]

low number of Citizens on Books.

I see your reasoning, better, now Hans.
I've used a number of devices to explain this, at various times in my career as a Referee, depending on a bunch of factors.
One point I need to make is because Neo-fuedalism.
It makes perfect sense to me to redefine a system's 'real' population number as vastly different than 'the number of Official Citizens' on the books.
The Imperium does not 'allow slavery'. it -does allow a lot of leeway in local rule- and certainly allows for economic debt. I have an Imperial Authority that's pretty soft on 'debt peonage'.

It doesn't get abused much, but it makes a great plot seed when it does!

 

[Carlobrand]

I tend to have problems with the idea of a significant population of "undocumented" residents. Certainly I'll consider a few, some small percentage of the population, but the UPP affects trade values. I understand there are canon examples of persons not reflected in the UPP, but it does make it hard to argue the validity of the trade system when someone can invent uncounted people who, oddly enough, don't eat or consume goods. Not that it's a great trade system, but of all the reasons to scrap and replace the trade system, the speculated existence of undocumented residents is not one of them.

It's because I don't believe in a universe where governments allow small numbers of people to lay claim to entire worlds. ...

This one got me to thinking. There are a lot of empty worlds inside the Imperial borders. One presumes that at some point someone or someones may find interest in one of these worlds and settle down there - in which case they're going to be counted in the UPP, unless we're also about to suggest there are numbers of empty worlds that are not empty.

I do not know if it's a question of what the Imperium allows. The Imperium governs the space between worlds. Does canon also say that it governs empty worlds? That it can decide who can settle there or under what circumstances a government set up by settlers will receive Imperial recognition?

If the Imperium does not control empty worlds, then all that is needed is for someone to settle there, form a government, and say, "Here we are." Then, whoopie, they're in the UPP. On the other hand, if they can do that, someone else can do exactly the same thing on the other side of the planet and, voila, balkanized world. If the Imperium does not control the affairs of the planetside folk, then it likewise cannot adjudicate a dispute over the "ownership" of a world: it either all goes to whoever plants a settlement first, or it's a case of, "You own what you can control."

I can't see a "first takes all" approach working because it leads to the megacorps planting a small colony on any and every world on the off chance there's something profitable there. Doesn't really cost a mega much to put a couple families down and lay a claim, and the potential profits from controlling an entire planet could be enormous. That really only leaves two alternatives: people settle where they will unless there's an existing local government with the will and resources to prevent them from doing so without that government's consent, or - contrary to that "space-between-worlds" bit, the Imperium actually does exercise jurisdiciton over uninhabited worlds and has the authority to entertain claims and adjudicate claim disputes.

Unfortunately, I don't know of anything in canon that points decisively on one direction or the other on that one. In fact, at least one example seems to be the "first takes all" approach, leaving us wondering why the megas haven't planted flags and a few feet on every available rock.

 

[rancke]

I tend to have problems with the idea of a significant population of "undocumented" residents. Certainly I'll consider a few, some small percentage of the population, but the UPP affects trade values. I understand there are canon examples of persons not reflected in the UPP, but it does make it hard to argue the validity of the trade system when someone can invent uncounted people who, oddly enough, don't eat or consume goods. Not that it's a great trade system, but of all the reasons to scrap and replace the trade system, the speculated existence of undocumented residents is not one of them.

I agree. For trade purposes not only do all inhabitants (resident and transient alike) count, short-term transients really count too (tourists have to eat too). And the salient figure is the entire system population, not just the mainworld population.

And IMO this is also important for PC adventure purposes. There's quite a narrative difference between a world that has X permanent residents and one that has X permanent residents plus 10X tourists on any given day.

This one got me to thinking. There are a lot of empty worlds inside the Imperial borders. One presumes that at some point someone or someones may find interest in one of these worlds and settle down there - in which case they're going to be counted in the UPP, unless we're also about to suggest there are numbers of empty worlds that are not empty.

That's precisely the implication of not counting transients. Another implication is that outpost personnel should not count in the population figure, so all those mining colonies should have a population of 0.

I do not know if it's a question of what the Imperium allows. The Imperium governs the space between worlds. Does canon also say that it governs empty worlds? That it can decide who can settle there or under what circumstances a government set up by settlers will receive Imperial recognition?

There are examples of the Imperium exercising direct control of worlds. There are examples of the Imperium forbidding people to visit a world (various interdictions). If these worlds count as member worlds, the Imperium would be in violation of the very first line of the first paragraph of the Warrant of Restoration.

I think that the Imperium normally doesn't bother one way or another with squatters. It could slab a "DO NOT LAND" sign on any (non-member) hunk of rock it wants to, but in most cases it doesn't want to.

If the Imperium does not control empty worlds, then all that is needed is for someone to settle there, form a government, and say, "Here we are." Then, whoopie, they're in the UPP.

Yes, but not whoopie, the world is a member world. That's where the belief snaps for me. Which is why all those low-population worlds with sovereign governments bothers me so much. Not necessarily any particular example (though there are some of those too), but the relatively large number of them. A few odd exceptions is fine by me; 6 or 10 or 15 out of 36 is not.

[/quote]On the other hand, if they can do that, someone else can do exactly the same thing on the other side of the planet and, voila, balkanized world. If the Imperium does not control the affairs of the planetside folk, then it likewise cannot adjudicate a dispute over the "ownership" of a world: it either all goes to whoever plants a settlement first, or it's a case of, "You own what you can control."[/quote]
And a small population simply does not have the ability to control a whole lot of surface by itself. It's different if they have a home government to send a warship to evict latecomers, but then they aren't independent, are they?

That really only leaves two alternatives: people settle where they will unless there's an existing local government with the will and resources to prevent them from doing so without that government's consent, or - contrary to that "space-between-worlds" bit, the Imperium actually does exercise jurisdiciton over uninhabited worlds and has the authority to entertain claims and adjudicate claim disputes.

IMO the "space-between-the-worlds" bit is a slogan, not an accurate description of reality.

The way that would work is that the Imperium can exercise control over anything that isn't a member world or owned by a member world (If it bothers to). When someone settles on an empty world, it does not automatically become a member world. It becomes a member world when the Imperium feels that it has become important enough to confer that status on it. That would be the time it gets an Imperial high noble assigned. And an Imperial legation or at least a consulate.

Unfortunately, I don't know of anything in canon that points decisively on one direction or the other on that one. In fact, at least one example seems to be the "first takes all" approach, leaving us wondering why the megas haven't planted flags and a few feet on every available rock.

People and the governments run by people are not always 100% self-consistent. Especially in a place like the Imperium where one duke can rule one way and another duke the other way.

As I said, the odd exception is fine. Bbetter than fine; they lend color and verisimilitude to an otherwise bland and unconvincing setting. It's the wholesale aberrations I have problems accepting.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Imperial prisoners (and guards) does not explain the presence of 90 individuals who the Imperium consider to be the sovereign population of Pixie.

What about families of Imperial officials and/or guards living planet-side (presuming the officials are stationed there semi-permanently)? And perhaps a few trade-contacts to service the colony?

 

[rancke]

What about families of Imperial officials and/or guards living planet-side (presuming the officials are stationed there semi-permanently)? And perhaps a few trade-contacts to service the colony?

Are they citizens of Pixie or citizens of their homeworld? Do they plan to stay on Pixie after their tour of duty is over?

You're conflating living on Pixie, which is relatively easy to come up with explanations for, and counting as someone whose homeworld is Pixie. I have no trouble with the former, but I have great trouble with the latter.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...Why is the low number in the UPP bugging you?
I'm genuinely curious as to your being 'troubled' by this. ...

Think of it this way. Pixie's population affects its trade. It is non-industrial, and it earns negative DMs when you try to score passengers or cargo heading that way. So, its population code isn't an abstraction - it directly affects how much money you can make if you point your ship in that direction.

At the same time, Pixie hosts a naval base, a class-A starport, and an X-boat terminal. A class-A starport is capable of constructing starships and of performing annual maintenance on your starship.

So, we are looking at a world with a population low enough to seriously affect the amount of cargo you can find to fill your holds when you head that way but high enough to build the ship you're flying in and ships quite a bit larger than that - while also playing host to a Navy base, an x-boat terminal and a prison barge.

In this instance, we're saying there are 90 people counted by the Scouts as the population of Pixie. So, at best 40-50 workers - unless we craft a story in which for some reason there's not a child or retiree anywhere in the system, and that still only gives us 90 workers.

Now, any story we craft that takes any of those workers away from building or repairing ships makes things just a wee bit less believable for the world. It's already strained because we know some of those people are doing something other than building and repairing ships: any small community needs a few of its own workers meeting its own needs - plumbers, electricians, merchants, and so on. There just aren't many people left for other jobs. You count guards, you count prisoners, and you make the problem worse - but we know there's a prison there.

So, we don't count some people. The prisoners don't get counted. The naval base personnel don't get counted - we say the Navy handles their needs, so they don't affect trade. Maybe the starport workers don't get counted. We say, "We're only counting locals."

However, that leaves us with new conundrums.

• Why are we not counting some people when those people have an influence on trade - which is the main thing the UPP is used for?
• How is it useful to only know how many locals there are when there are all these other people who have an impact too, not just on trade but on the players' experience of the world?
• And, as Ranke might argue, what possible good can it do to count only the locals when 90 locals cannot in any imaginable way exercise sole sovereignty over an entire world without the Imperium using its muscle to back their claim - which not only strains credulity but violates the Imperial policy of not intervening in planetary affairs?

So, it's a headache. A burr under the saddle. A problem whose every solution seems only to create more problems. The easiest solution, frankly, is to retcon the puppy.

 

[rancke]

Here's another little conundrum for you: Once upon a time Pixie had a Class E starport: A flat piece of bedrock with a radio beacon. Possible a circle of white paint indicating the extrality line.

Then General Shipyards decided to build a shipyard next to the starport. Maybe as a tax dodge? Maybe (my non-canon explanation) the Imperial Navy offers hefty subsidies in order to have an installation that can be turned into an emergency repair facility in the event of war. Maybe the Managing Director had an attack of lunacy.

Be that as it may, one day the Imperial Starport Authority decides to expand the Pixie starport to be worthy of a class A rating. The shipyard is already there, but a shipyard alone does not a class A starport make. So they build a terminal, they erect a starport fence, they post a Starport Director and his staff, clerical and security, they rent out concessions in the terminal, the TAS sets up an office, the X-boat Service changes the jump-4 route from Boughene to Kinorb to dogleg through Pixie...

(That last one is especially puzzling. )

Why in the galaxy would any of them do any of that? o:

IMO, with or without the General Shipyards shipyard, Pixie should still have a Class E starport, because there is just not enough traffic to warrant anything more.


Hans

 

[Ref00000]

it's ALSO got an "Ancient Site" code

which, more or less, means The Imperial Authorities are going to, by definition, have something going on in system.
to me, the fact of there being that code means 'everything you think you know is probably a lie' and that there's much more hidden than openly notable.
in addition, it's my thought that 'trade codes' etc., can be manipulated, and are, In Game Universe. what I mean by this is 'the information may be intentionally false or inaccurate' because the Map and it's features are not just Out Of Character tools, they exist, in Game, as artifacts/props.
to further clarify, the Characters are using the Map, as well. And if the Throne, a trade bureau, megacorp, or The ISS wants to mislead Travellers, they can, to an extent.
weird, yeah, but it works.