World Memberships in the Imperium

[rancke]

But 90 guys having a class A port? Must be highly automated.

The starport is presumably associated with the shipyard that General Shipyards run (or vice versa). Though why the presence of a small shipyard should encourage the Imperial Starport Authority to provide all the other facilities of a Class A starport on a world with no traffic to speak of is a mystery to me.


Hans

 

[rancke]

A thought has just occured: How many prisoners are there on the Gash? According to CT Adventure 1 there are 20 guards and admin staff but from a quick scan I didn't see anything about prisoner numbers. If Pixie's population includes transients then a ratio of just 3.5 prisoners to each prison staff member would account for everyone in the system. No miners (or belters), no staff running the class A starport, no IN personnel in the naval base, no workers in the GS shipyards...

But prison personnel and prisoners would be transients too¹. And I don't see how they could possibly be considered the sovereign population of the system.

¹ Even lifetime prisoners would not be considered permanent residents, would they?​

Hans

 

[Limburger59]

My take is that published UWPs are meant for travellers and small merchants. It has a number of shortcomings when you try to use it for a deeper analysis. How many transients are there? Do they stay in their camps and facilities or interact with the local economy? And on the flipside, how many offworld workers does a planet have? Are they sending money home to their families? What about Imperial military (IN, et al) dependents ... when someone gets an offworld non-ship posting do families follow?

Good thoughts. As a Forward Base, maybe the Naval Installation and dedicated ship building facility are off limits to small merchants and Travellers, therefore the UWP is a true indicator of potential customers.

As to those 90 citizens, maybe a naval hero in a previous war was granted the Barony of Pixie, contingent that the family establishes their home there. Instead of discarding the "white elephant", great-great-grandfather Gustav established his keep there and has instilled in his family the proud (stubborn) tradition of upholding their title. The Navy honors (tolerates) Gustav's heirs, but makes it extremely difficult for non-family members to move to Pixie.

 

[Quint]

As to those 90 citizens, maybe a naval hero in a previous war was granted the Barony of Pixie, contingent that the family establishes their home there. Instead of discarding the "white elephant", great-great-grandfather Gustav established his keep there and has instilled in his family the proud (stubborn) tradition of upholding their title. The Navy honors (tolerates) Gustav's heirs, but makes it extremely difficult for non-family members to move to Pixie.

That's always been my take on Pixie - a single (powerful) noble family + retainers who have essentially a hold-out there and are known as reclusive and eccentric (aka survivalists).

(Ok, they actually have a weird and accidental genetic tie to an Ancient artifact that has to have a living host/operator ala the Great Machine from B5 but that is known only the a very select few...)

D.

 

[GypsyComet]

granted the Barony of Pixie, contingent that the family establishes their home there.

Pixie rates a Knight, but otherwise that isn't a bad scenario.

 

[Dagrill]

(sigh) Although I have a copy of BtC lying around somewhere I've not read a lot of it. But it looks like the author of BtC made some changes ... which doesn't help. 'Belters' does sound less permanent than 'miners'.

I would not agree with that statement, belter are brought up and spend their whole lives living in zero -g, they sound a lot more permanent than 'miners'.

My solution is that the belters rep brown nosed the Imperial ambassador, (that drew up the treaty), who just happened to have a grudge against GS anyway,

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

But prison personnel and prisoners would be transients too¹. And I don't see how they could possibly be considered the sovereign population of the system.

¹ Even lifetime prisoners would not be considered permanent residents, would they?​

Hans

Not if they escaped. It seems the 3I likes to lock up people and throw away the key without any legal justification based on this.

a prison guard however might be intending to retire and settle down there, so could be a permanent resident.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Good thoughts. As a Forward Base, maybe the Naval Installation and dedicated ship building facility are off limits to small merchants and Travellers, therefore the UWP is a true indicator of potential customers.

As to those 90 citizens, maybe a naval hero in a previous war was granted the Barony of Pixie, contingent that the family establishes their home there. Instead of discarding the "white elephant", great-great-grandfather Gustav established his keep there and has instilled in his family the proud (stubborn) tradition of upholding their title. The Navy honors (tolerates) Gustav's heirs, but makes it extremely difficult for non-family members to move to Pixie.

Nice, excellent reasoning

Regards

David

 

[epicenter00]

¹ Even lifetime prisoners would not be considered permanent residents, would they?​

Hans

I'd actually argue that prisoners of a "prison world" are considered residents and should be considered residents if they are not. As prisoners, there's records somewhere that say that he or she was sentenced to that world. While it might not be the most desirable form of "documented person" I believe they would actually be considered residents.

 

[rancke]

I'd actually argue that prisoners of a "prison world" are considered residents and should be considered residents if they are not. As prisoners, there's records somewhere that say that he or she was sentenced to that world. While it might not be the most desirable form of "documented person" I believe they would actually be considered residents.

Residents, yes. Permanent resident members of a sovereign local population, surely not.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

It could be that the Imperium is ideologically prevented from denying membership in certain situations, which then leads occasionally to aberrations like Pixie.

 

[BlackBat242]

At least in CT, I was under the strong impression that the question of whether a world was a "member" of the Imperium or not was 100% a matter of whether the Imperium wanted control of that system or not - if the Imperium wants the system they are absorbed, if the Imperium doesn't want the system it isn't.

Additionally, the default position was understood to be "if there are no jump routes out of the Imperium through all non-Imperial systems then the system in question is automatically an Imperial system".


Can anyone provide CT examples of independent systems fully-surrounded by Imperial systems - or of systems petitioning to "join the Imperium" - or of systems successfully "declining membership in the Imperium"?

 

[Carlobrand]

At least in CT, I was under the strong impression that the question of whether a world was a "member" of the Imperium or not was 100% a matter of whether the Imperium wanted control of that system or not - if the Imperium wants the system they are absorbed, if the Imperium doesn't want the system it isn't.

Additionally, the default position was understood to be "if there are no jump routes out of the Imperium through all non-Imperial systems then the system in question is automatically an Imperial system".


Can anyone provide CT examples of independent systems fully-surrounded by Imperial systems - or of systems petitioning to "join the Imperium" - or of systems successfully "declining membership in the Imperium"?

There's the Vegan Autonomous Region, but that's kind of an unusual situation.

 

[rancke]

At least in CT, I was under the strong impression that the question of whether a world was a "member" of the Imperium or not was 100% a matter of whether the Imperium wanted control of that system or not - if the Imperium wants the system they are absorbed, if the Imperium doesn't want the system it isn't.

In the days when CT was the only rules system around, the information about the Third Imperium setting was pretty scanty. I don't think that 'member world' was defined. Indeed, I don't think it has been defined in details even today, although we do have some more hints than provided in CT material alone.

Can anyone provide CT examples of independent systems fully-surrounded by Imperial systems - or of systems petitioning to "join the Imperium" - or of systems successfully "declining membership in the Imperium"?

Not since the Pacification Campaigns. But that's not the difference between member world and non-member world inside the Imperial border (as I see it). The difference is that the member world has an Imperial charter granting it internal autonomy, and that the Warrant of Restoration (T4 evidence) prohibits the Imperium from exercising direct governance of it (It's the first sentence of the first paragraph: "The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world") whereas the non-member world also belongs to the Imperium but does not have internal autonomy and may be governed directly by the Imperium.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

... The difference is that the member world has an Imperial charter granting it internal autonomy, and that the Warrant of Restoration (T4 evidence) prohibits the Imperium from exercising direct governance of it (It's the first sentence of the first paragraph: "The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world") whereas the non-member world also belongs to the Imperium but does not have internal autonomy and may be governed directly by the Imperium. ...

I recall there's a "captive" world mentioned in canon that fit this description. Scandia in the Solomani Rim is a captive government ruled directly by the Imperium since its fall in the Solomani Rim War (Signal GK). Might be a few other worlds in that same situation - local government tried to exit or got overthrown by some rebel that then tried to exit, followed by Imperial reaction and occupation. I vaguely recall there's also a red-zoned world or two within Imperial space who are red-zoned because they want nothing to do with outsiders; I would hazard a guess that they are not members of the Imperium, but I don't recall that being specifically mentioned. Red-zoning might also be an answer to a world that found itself enveloped in Imperial space but still refused to join.

 

[Ref00000]

Pixie?

it's a prison colony.
like Arkham Asylum, distributed on asteroids, with better (functioning) security.
why is this considered odd, in the Imperium's member list?

 

[rancke]

it's a prison colony.

No more than a town with a prison nearby is a prison colony.

like Arkham Asylum, distributed on asteroids, with better (functioning) security.

The prisoners are housed in a Kinunir class ship without a jump drive.

why is this considered odd, in the Imperium's member list?

Because the situation would be analogous to the inmates of the aforementioned prison being allowed to vote in local elections while the people living outside the prison wasn't.


Hans

 

[Ref00000]

obv., you are quoting canon, but I'm unfamiliar with it.
source?

(I use the 'asteroid prison bloc' model because it made sense from my interpretation of the UPP. FYI)

No more than a town with a prison nearby is a prison colony.


The prisoners are housed in a Kinunir class ship without a jump drive.


Because the situation would be analogous to the inmates of the aforementioned prison being allowed to vote in local elections while the people living outside the prison wasn't.


Hans

 

[rancke]

obv., you are quoting canon, but I'm unfamiliar with it.
source?

The Kinunir, p. 5.


Hans

 

[Ref00000]

is it specifically mentioned anywhere that Imperial Citizens retain voting rights in prison!?
because, well, that's just insane.

I don't have access to my reprints, and so, no access to Kinunir.
Does it indicate the Warden Of Pixie or whoever is using proxy votes?
it's a fun little Boss Hogg move, if it's there...