World, System, and Allegiance

[Garnfellow]

Worlds join the Imperium as individual worlds. In most cases, interstellar polities have to be dissolved and the component worlds admitted separately.

But is there anything anywhere that specifies the allegiance listed for the mainworld necessarily pertains to all other worlds in the system? Could you, say, have a mainworld that is a member of the Imperium but a gas giant moon in the outer system that belongs to the Solomani Confederation?

Does the Imperium insist on entire worlds joining? Could you have a balkanized world where the majority belong to the Imperium but some nations insist on remaining neutral?

 

[tjoneslo]

In going through the Spinward Marches data I have found at least one world where this is true. For example: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Garda-Vilis_(world) . It is a world undergoing revolutionary changes with some factions supporting the Imperium, and other supporting the Zhodani or simply pure independence.

As long as the violence doesn't exceed levels to trigger an intervention under the terms of Rules of War, this situation could persist for many years. The number of worlds having an ongoing revolution from the Traveller Canon, I would not expect this to be an unusual situation along any of the border regions.

 

[Timerover51]

Worlds join the Imperium as individual worlds. In most cases, interstellar polities have to be dissolved and the component worlds admitted separately.

But is there anything anywhere that specifies the allegiance listed for the mainworld necessarily pertains to all other worlds in the system? Could you, say, have a mainworld that is a member of the Imperium but a gas giant moon in the outer system that belongs to the Solomani Confederation?

I am not sure if you could have both the Imperium and the Solomani Confederation in the same system, but if the main world is in the habitable zone and the gas giant is considerably further out, the amount of effective control the main world might have of a gas giant moon could be highly questionable.

Does the Imperium insist on entire worlds joining? Could you have a balkanized world where the majority belong to the Imperium but some nations insist on remaining neutral?

The Balkanized worlds do make for an interesting issue. In theory, the UN on Earth could agree to join the Imperium as representing the entire planet, but I could see nations opting out of that. My guess would be that whatever nation on a Balkanized planet signs on with the Imperium would be the dominant one on the planet, or the one aspiring to dominance, but the rest of the planet would be up for grabs. That is a case where you would have more than one starport, the one run by the Imperium, with the rest run by the locals. On a lower Tech Level planet, the Imperium will likely control the only High Port, limiting the non-Imperial ports to streamlined ships only, or what cargo can be brought down by shuttle.

It does make for some interesting possibilities.

 

[flykiller]

I am not sure if you could have both the Imperium and the Solomani Confederation in the same system

call it casablanca.

 

[Condottiere]

Unified world and a demonstrably tech level eight industrial base might be requisite for better terms, as opposed to a mandatory protectorate.

 

[Whipsnade]

But is there anything anywhere that specifies the allegiance listed for the mainworld necessarily pertains to all other worlds in the system?

There is a canonical example of one Imperial world owning an outer system body in the system of another Imperial world.

Could you, say, have a mainworld that is a member of the Imperium but a gas giant moon in the outer system that belongs to the Solomani Confederation?

While that might be pushing the concept a little too far, it would make for a wonderful adventure setting.

Does the Imperium insist on entire worlds joining?

Apparently not, because...

Could you have a balkanized world where the majority belong to the Imperium but some nations insist on remaining neutral?

... there are a few examples of balkanized worlds on which varying numbers of nations belong to the Imperium. In some cases, it's the majority. In others, they're a minority. In one case, IIRC, it's only one nation.

Edit: If memory serves, most if not all of the examples I can recall are in the GTU or "Lorenverse". Whether they're "truly" canon or not is up to each individual.

 

[tjoneslo]

Edit: If memory serves, most if not all of the examples I can recall are in the GTU or "Lorenverse". Whether they're "truly" canon or not is up to each individual.

I feel like I've been hellbanned.

If you read through the mercenary tickets in book 4, and depending upon how independent you think the various rebellions or individual nations really are that you are being hired to suppress, you can find three or four examples.

 

[welsh]

The Balkanized worlds do make for an interesting issue. In theory, the UN on Earth could agree to join the Imperium as representing the entire planet, but I could see nations opting out of that....

Stepping away from the original premise here ... I think this is an example of things not being thought through. Just like the question of how a world with government 0 joins the Imperium.

It's possible that one or more nations on a balkanized world could join the Imperium but things get kind of tricky if Starfaring Nation A signs up while Starfaring Nation B declines the offer. Does this world now lie in Imperial space? And if so, what's the status of a ship launching from Nation B's starport?

If a mainworld is Imperial but a secondary world has some other allegiance, who controls the spaces between?

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I feel like I've been hellbanned.

Thomas,

*** What does "hellbanned" mean? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[GypsyComet]

Just like the question of how a world with government 0 joins the Imperium.

That one's easy. In many cases the world and/or system was annexed without consultation because it was uninhabited. The 211 people who were noted by the Second Survey showed up later.

 

[welsh]

That one's easy. In many cases the world and/or system was annexed without consultation because it was uninhabited. The 211 people who were noted by the Second Survey showed up later.

Well, we have to make that assumption, although it opens up another can of worms even farther beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Whipsnade]

That one's easy. In many cases the world and/or system was annexed without consultation because it was uninhabited. The 211 people who were noted by the Second Survey showed up later.

Doesn't work for me.

The Imperium initially claims the entire uninhabited world and/or system, correct?

Then, at some later date, 1 or more people show up, mark off an acre, planetoid, moon, or planet out of the territory the Imperium has previously claimed, and somehow their new claim is suddenly not part of the Imperium?

Sorry, doesn't work for me.

 

[Hal]

IMTU worlds without major Imperial nobility assigned to them aren't member world's. Any other worlds with imperial allegiance are either colonies or chartered worlds for purposes of resources.

Per T5, worlds have to have a minimum population value to have a baron or greater assigned to the world. Keep in mind too, that worlds can undergo a change of government - which makes me wonder what happens (aside from an amber zone rating or even a red zone assignment?) if the new world government decides they don't want to remain imperial subjects any more.

I seem to recall too that the Imperial Navy is not only tasked with defense of the Imperium from external threats, by also rebellions. Probably read from either of TA007 or Sector Fleet.

 

[GypsyComet]

Doesn't work for me.

The Imperium initially claims the entire uninhabited world and/or system, correct?

Then, at some later date, 1 or more people show up, mark off an acre, planetoid, moon, or planet out of the territory the Imperium has previously claimed, and somehow their new claim is suddenly not part of the Imperium?

Sorry, doesn't work for me.

I answered the question I quoted.

Worlds that balkanize badly, or systems with rebellious elements on secondary worlds, are probably not conducive to a blanket answer. As with many other issues, the Imperium likely has a threshold for direct involvement of armored problem solvers with plasma guns, and a lower threshold for more diplomatic approaches. Below that, "the Imperium" probably doesn't care, even if the local nobles are keeping a wary eye on the rebellious province over on Continent B. Violent disagreement is to be expected occasionally with so many worlds and a thousand years of Empire. Just don't break the Imperial Rules of War, or create trade embargoes above a certain level, or decide to ignore the extrality of Imperial territory.

Those two thresholds will be different for other polities. Sometimes *very* different.

 

[Whipsnade]

I answered the question I quoted.

So you did. My apologies.

 

[aramis]

On a balkanized world, the locals would all probably know well where the fiefs were and know well also to avoid them. Or, if wanting imperial intervention, arrange to violate them disguised as their enemies.

Civilians near them would likely seek asylum on them, too.

 

[Hal]

On a balkanized world, the locals would all probably know well where the fiefs were and know well also to avoid them. Or, if wanting imperial intervention, arrange to violate them disguised as their enemies.

Civilians near them would likely seek asylum on them, too.

Let's run this scenario if I might?

Say there are 200+ nations on a world with a pop rating of say, 9. How does that balkanized world enter the Moot as an Imperial World? Is it a majority vote by the nations one by one? Is it a majority vote such that the population tally must equal 4.51 for the "motion" to pass for admittance into the Imperium? Can a single nation sign up for admittance into the Imperium - and if so, are THEY the ones who have to provide all of the land for the Starport and the fiefs? Just trying to wrap my head around it.

 

[aramis]

Let's run this scenario if I might?

Say there are 200+ nations on a world with a pop rating of say, 9. How does that balkanized world enter the Moot as an Imperial World? Is it a majority vote by the nations one by one? Is it a majority vote such that the population tally must equal 4.51 for the "motion" to pass for admittance into the Imperium? Can a single nation sign up for admittance into the Imperium - and if so, are THEY the ones who have to provide all of the land for the Starport and the fiefs? Just trying to wrap my head around it.

Probably any onf of the top 5 could get admitted... or whichever one leads the space race.

 

[GypsyComet]

...and if so, are THEY the ones who have to provide all of the land for the Starport and the fiefs?

The Imperium assumes control over a certain number of hexes. They don't all have to be dry. Or contiguous.

 

[Hal]

The Imperium assumes control over a certain number of hexes. They don't all have to be dry. Or contiguous.

Per T5, they have to consistently generate a given amount of economic activity whose overall output must exceed the costs of generating said economic activity by a given amount. On water worlds, they can be artificial islands per THE MILLENNIAL PROJECT, or possibly underwater domes in shallow waters. Heck, people could spend their entire lives in gargantuan sized underwater hulls. Point is, the hexes have to be something that the balkanized nations that are Imperial members, can offer or protect. If other non-imperial nations are willing to go to war over resources stolen from them, wouldn't such a balkanized world be perpetually at risk of a red or Amber zone?

If, in order to qualify for Imperial membership in the moot, a world's population must meet a minimum level, would it make sense that a balkanized world's pro-Imperium population must also meet a minimum criteria?

Just musing aloud.