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XBoat deckplans.

a) Read my quote, I never said "Non-existent".
No, you said "the Xboat network infrastructure already present". I said "non-existent", as I think that would be the extent of the existing Xboat network infrastructure at the time they were designed.

b) X-boat may cover a diversified reality over time. For various reasons they might not have been all Jumper at all time. It is therefore not possible to provide an extensive answer to your question as asked.
You mean that they went from a model with a maneuver drive to amodel without one? I don't find that assumption credible.

c) if your question was :.. when THAT MODEL of Xboat was designed, I'd say that this type of Xboat was designed together with the XBoat Tender. Unless somebody design things that can't operate for lack of required infrastructure or infrastructure that have no use for lack of user, both the Xboat Tender and the Xboat were designed as a match to upgrade whatever was previously existing.
Which IMO would have been the pre-Xboat courier network.

As I said, just trying to make sense of the OTU. If the OTU does not make enough sense for you, do like me, fix it. However, sometime, it makes sense without fixing.
And that's fine when it does. But I don't think the drive-less Xboat does.

110 T to gets more databanks, might be a fine idea, I hope you do it IYTU. But availability of space do not justify counter productive use of it by fitting in 2 T of useless and expensive machinery.

Useless refer to "large" M drive. In my understanding of the OTU Jumpers still have thrusters (I guess your 0.1g M), simply because it would not make sense to have such an expensive piece of machinery unable to stabilize or stop helplessly drifting after a minor impact.
But this requires assuming that the CT ship design system is simplified to omit this possibility. Which I'm perfectly OK with, but contradicts the existence of Xboat tenders designed to go fetch immobile Xboats.

As to the 20T bridge & the stateroom, all are CT canon. Simplicity does have its virtues and its sins.
Simplicity for game purposes is fine. But to assume that this simplicity applies to "Real Life" is wrong. In "reality", it should be possible to create an 18T bridge by shrimping here and there. Perhaps not as good as a 20T bridge. Or perhaps more expensive than a 20T bridge. But possible.

[Note: the quotation marks around 'real life' and 'reality' is to acknowledge that it's a fictional reality. But one that is supposedly every bit as complex as Real Life.]


Hans
 
No, you said "the Xboat network infrastructure already present". I said "non-existent", as I think that would be the extent of the existing Xboat network infrastructure at the time they were designed...

Cost reduction would require the use of as much as possible of the pre-Xboat courier network infrastructures: data receiving centers, scout bases, training facilities, repairs workshops, recruiting centers, current admin, vet admin... A large chunk of the infrastructure used by XBoat existed as the nest in which XBoats and their Tenders hatched and became their nest.

As to the semantic issue: could the previous communication infrasctructure (the courrier network) be properly refered to as Xboat infrastructure once used by XBoat, I have no interest in such a debate from the semantic stand point (if that was your point). The aspect of your question that is of interest for me is how the new grow from the old.

Of course, if you play an early millieu, you may game the birth of the Xboat network whatever way you wish.

The way I see it (as I was working on a Pocket Empire campaign), as an Empire ( and that include TI) expand: the military network start carrying the message of the "civilian" administration (often a military governor) as it settle in the new territories and the issue of the economic expansion is raised. Since it require civilian access to a rapid communications infrastructure, a paying service is set up to make a needed system pay for itself.

In the early stage you use Fleet couriers, then the civilian/administrative courier creep foward with S courriers (or other less well known models) until distance and volume justify setting-up a Jumper link. That is the most credible pattern.

In the later stage, as worlds evolve, a mail route may evolve from mail contracts into a Xboat Jumper link.

You mean that they went from a model with a maneuver drive to amodel without one? I don't find that assumption credible..

No I mean a) that the current model might not have been the first yet ultimate model of Jumper. b) that one of the Imperial Secretary for Communication might have believe (like you in a later statement) that M less Xboat were not making sense and that a "MXBoat" version might have been used before common sense prevailed and (a new version of?) Jumper (the current one?) put back into service.


Which IMO would have been the pre-Xboat courier network..

Yes for the first model of Jumper-Tender.


And that's fine when it does. But I don't think the drive-less Xboat does.

noted,

But this requires assuming that the CT ship design system is simplified to omit this possibility. Which I'm perfectly OK with, but contradicts the existence of Xboat tenders designed to go fetch immobile Xboats.

Not at all, it is faster for a 1G Self Prop drydock to reach a 0.1G Jumper than for a 0.1G Jumper to reach an orbital drydock. Using the thruster as main propulsion would be a waste of the reaction mass given the incoming Tender. So there is no contradiction between the Jumpers' "immobility" from the standpoint of Tender pick-up and it having attitude thrusters

The whole issue of thrusters having been (as far as I know) left unspecified you cannot postulate that the canon design had none and therefore that "immobile Xboat" is to be taken literally to the point of absurdity.


Simplicity for game purposes is fine. But to assume that this simplicity applies to "Real Life" is wrong. In "reality", it should be possible to create an 18T bridge by shrimping here and there. Perhaps not as good as a 20T bridge. Or perhaps more expensive than a 20T bridge. But possible.

[Note: the quotation marks around 'real life' and 'reality' is to acknowledge that it's a fictional reality. But one that is supposedly every bit as complex as Real Life.]


Hans

Right, that is why I redesign all MTU ships using T5.

Have fun

Selandia
 
Sidebar if I may ?

It's rather interesting that a private venture hasn't stepped in to compete with the X-boat Network to carry news-dispatches under contract or as an independent network themselves.

Mind that high tech levels are available to rehab-replace stock-retired X-boats as well as with tenders, so start-up for a commercial service might be a workable venture given enough investors and Imperial subsidiary contracts to pick-up less traveled routes.
 
Sidebar if I may ?

It's rather interesting that a private venture hasn't stepped in to compete with the X-boat Network to carry news-dispatches under contract or as an independent network themselves.

Mind that high tech levels are available to rehab-replace stock-retired X-boats as well as with tenders, so start-up for a commercial service might be a workable venture given enough investors and Imperial subsidiary contracts to pick-up less traveled routes.

It canonically has... at least in the domain of Deneb. And it's a J6 line at that. But it's also not public knowledge. See the appendices of The Traveller Adventure.
 
Sidebar if I may ?

It's rather interesting that a private venture hasn't stepped in to compete with the X-boat Network to carry news-dispatches under contract or as an independent network themselves.

Mind that high tech levels are available to rehab-replace stock-retired X-boats as well as with tenders, so start-up for a commercial service might be a workable venture given enough investors and Imperial subsidiary contracts to pick-up less traveled routes.
Despite all the hype about the Xboats, the news conveyors to compete with are the Imperial Navy's J6 couriers.

Secondly, if J6 passenger liners exist (which I believe would be the case, since the ship-building rules allow private individuals (i.e. PCs) to buy J6 ships), they would constitute an informal network between all the high-population worlds. News organizations would make deals with such liners to carry news for them.


Hans
 
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It canonically has... at least in the domain of Deneb. And it's a J6 line at that. But it's also not public knowledge. See the appendices of The Traveller Adventure.

The existence of J6 navy couriers is public knowledge, however. There are some canonical TNS newsbriefs datelined Regina that were brought by navy couriers from Terra in record time even for jump-6.


Hans
 
Not at all, it is faster for a 1G Self Prop drydock to reach a 0.1G Jumper than for a 0.1G Jumper to reach an orbital drydock. Using the thruster as main propulsion would be a waste of the reaction mass given the incoming Tender. So there is no contradiction between the Jumpers' "immobility" from the standpoint of Tender pick-up and it having attitude thrusters.

The whole issue of thrusters having been (as far as I know) left unspecified you cannot postulate that the canon design had none and therefore that "immobile Xboat" is to be taken literally to the point of absurdity.
But the flavor text explicitly states that the Xboats are immobile. I agree that that is an absurd design, but that's what the text says. You can't argue that the text isn't absurd on the grounds that it can't possibly mean what it says since that would be absurd.

"Space is so cramped aboard the xboats that they do not even contain maneuver drives. A ship makes its jump [...] and then waits to be picked up and towed into the xboat station..." [BoJTAS2:13]

"The express boat is almost useless for any purpose other than that for which it was originally designed [...]. Its cramped hull doesn't even have room for maneuver drives; the ship is helpless until picked up by a tender." [T&G:9-10]

I did notice something interesting. In the original writeup, the X-boat station is distinct from the tenders. The tenders fetch the Xboats and bring them to the station. It's only in T&G that tender and station are conflated. And to my Mark I eyeball the illustration of the tender makes it about a 400T design, capable of carrying two Xboats or one Scout/Courier.


Hans
 
Despite all the hype about the Xboats, the news conveyors to compete with are the Imperial Navy's J6 couriers.

And don't forget regular old Mail service, which is an essential source of revenue for subsidized merchants/liners/packets as well as allowing the shipping of information-dense small parcels (such as DVDs or SD cards or whatever) between trade and commerce hubs and spokes.

As has often been pointed out elsewhere, for around MCr250 you can build a 400dton, Jump-5 courier with room for 5dtons of proper Mail as low as TL11 (depending on the rules version used), and the usefulness of such a thing makes a small squadron of them a "must have" for any planetary government that can scrounge up a spare BCr or two to build them and MCr100 or so per year to operate and maintain them.

Given the haphazard and arbitrary way Xboat routes run, I suspect the only reason J-5 planetary naval couriers are not ubiquitous in the OTU is a specific Imperial policy to discourage the rapid dissemination of information to the general public. Hence the IISS runs the inefficient Xboat-and-Type-S Communications Branch, and Mail contracts are portioned out to Subbies in some sort of competitive bidding process that is strictly controlled to limit outgoing Mail to one ship per destination per month.

Meanwhile, Imperiallines and the IN keep the ruling class ahead of the game.
 
Given the haphazard and arbitrary way Xboat routes run, I suspect the only reason J-5 planetary naval couriers are not ubiquitous in the OTU is a specific Imperial policy to discourage the rapid dissemination of information to the general public.
And what would be the reason why the extremely heavy-handed Imperial interference with member worlds needed to discourage the rapid dissemination of information to the general public isn't mentioned anywhere?

Note that while civilian J6 couriers are merely logical, not canonical, Oberlindes is explicitly said to have a number of J5 couriers. If a dinky little subsector-wide line are allowed to have J5 couriers, you can bet that sector-wide companies, mega-corporations, and planetary authorities are allowed them too. With that number of rival news conveyors, there's no point in keeping the Xboats at J4. And, as I said, the existence of civilian J6 shipping is pretty likely too.

I think the haphazard and arbitrary way Xboat routes run is due to the Xboats having been superceded by Imperial Navy couriers as the primary means of conveying information back when J5 was discovered. I believe the Navy kept J5 a military secret for two or three decades before being forced to release it; the same happened again with J6. Naturally the Imperial Bureaucracy began sending copies of orders and reports with 'NavyNet'. This meant no incentive to upgrade the Xboats once it became possible, leaving the Xboats as a redundant source of graft.


Hans
 
And what would be the reason why the extremely heavy-handed Imperial interference with member worlds needed to discourage the rapid dissemination of information to the general public isn't mentioned anywhere?

I doesn't need to be explicitly mentioned anywhere (TTA and Archduke Dulinor's attempt to assert the Right of Assassination in the original GDW timeline notwithstanding). The Xboat system is a given in the OTU, Mail contracts are awarded by local governments, and no one -- not in the least PC types -- needs to see how the sausage is made.

Note that while civilian J6 couriers are merely logical, not canonical, Oberlindes is explicitly said to have a number of J5 couriers.

I expect that that has something to do with the fact that Marc hault-Oberlindes, Baron Feri, is a notorious maverick rule-bending member of the Imperial nobility himself.

:D
 
I doesn't need to be explicitly mentioned anywhere [...].
Depends on how ubiquitous the effects of such a policy is. If it's something that doesn't affect the lives of PCs there's no need. But the fact that they don't get their news as fast as possible does have the potential to affect them big time.

And Traveller news briefs getting around in record time is a canonical fact too.
(TTA and Archduke Dulinor's attempt to assert the Right of Assassination in the original GDW timeline notwithstanding)
I don't understand this point.

I expect that that has something to do with the fact that Marc hault-Oberlindes, Baron Feri, is a notorious maverick rule-bending member of the Imperial nobility himself.
Rule-bending, not rule-breaking. And other interstellar companies will have their own Imperial nobles, so my main point, that there will be scores of rival news conveyors, stands. 13 megacorporations, an undefined number of sector-wide companies, multiple subsector-wide companies, hundreds of high-population member worlds, and most likely lots and lots of jump-6 passenger liners.


Hans
 
Sylean Federation Express- when it absolutely has to be there on time.

Hmmm, the more I think about the egress/safety thing, the more I think I am going to build in explosive bolt hatches into most of my engineering spaces as a standard.

They would be just as thick as any hull so not an invitation in, but a way out if the airlock(s) traditionally fore and around the bridge, cargo bay and/or staterooms are cut off by damage or fire, and as a last ditch way to put out a fire by vacuum if fire suppression and/or atmo control is inoperative.

Same thing for a jettison system for missile magazines.
 
But the flavor text explicitly states that the Xboats are immobile. I agree that that is an absurd design, but that's what the text says. You can't argue that the text isn't absurd on the grounds that it can't possibly mean what it says since that would be absurd.

"Space is so cramped aboard the xboats that they do not even contain maneuver drives. A ship makes its jump [...] and then waits to be picked up and towed into the xboat station..." [BoJTAS2:13]

"The express boat is almost useless for any purpose other than that for which it was originally designed [...]. Its cramped hull doesn't even have room for maneuver drives; the ship is helpless until picked up by a tender." [T&G:9-10]

The text does not says that there is no attitude trusters. My understanding does not contradict it to make sense of it

BTW I am happy with the text implying even less than the 0.1 G "thruster" drive that I may have been willing to credit for the shake of argument with peoples that say that we should be able to make it 101T and squeeze a smalish M-drive in it, or that 0.0001G attitude rocket thrusters should be used as propulsion.


I did notice something interesting. In the original writeup, the X-boat station is distinct from the tenders. The tenders fetch the Xboats and bring them to the station. It's only in T&G that tender and station are conflated. And to my Mark I eyeball the illustration of the tender makes it about a 400T design, capable of carrying two Xboats or one Scout/Courier.


Hans

Yea, somebody got thinking hard and figured the difference between a Tug and Tender. before printing T&G. The ressuply ship, the M-tug and the Tender are the three fundamental options ... see XBoat station tread.

have fun

Selandia
 
The text does not says that there is no attitude trusters. My understanding does not contradict it to make sense of it.
No use arguing this any further. You made a different reading roll than I did.

EDIT: Darn it, it's like an itch I keep wanting to scratch. I'll give it one more try. The text does say, by implication, that there are no attitude thrusters, at least none that can be used for propulsion. It says that the ship is helpless. If it had thrusters, it wouldn't be helpless. Ergo it does not have thrusters. Q.E.D..
BTW I am happy with the text implying even less than the 0.1 G "thruster" drive that I may have been willing to credit for the shake of argument with peoples that say that we should be able to make it 101T and squeeze a smalish M-drive in it, or that 0.0001G attitude rocket thrusters should be used as propulsion.
Just leave out the second stateroom and you have room to spare (By HG, not by Book 2).


Hans
 
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.....Just leave out the second stateroom and you have room to spare (By HG, not by Book 2). Hans

My argument would be the layout of the quarters deck being in need of a renovation for better use of available space.

If said deck were laid-out with a centrally located common area as a 'hub', then the other required sections could be 'broken-up' to be similar to spokes on a wheel or pie-wedges.

Should the staterooms be reconfigured much like a 'capsule-hotel', meaning a compact sleeping 'drawer' than the full-sized bedroom, doing so would opt-out the saved space to other needs.

By 'stacking' said drawers, an X-boat could provide accommodations for the single crew member and up to three (3) additional passengers, all sharing two (2) separate stand-alone fresher facilities and the large commons area.

This radial aligned layout should provide flow-traffic aboard the admittedly cramped little ship and the savings of enough waste-space to allow for a compact M-drive.

Said M-drive easily fitting in a 'hip' collar set parallel to the upper J-drive compartment, such also housing fuel scoops and fuel-processor units.

Now equipped for routinely skimming gas giants, the venerable X-boat design gains more independence and longer 'legs'.

1_Tea-Cup_Class.jpg
 
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