Jump 1 vs Jump 2 ships in the CT Imperium

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
This is an offshoot of the Piracy Redux thread, and an effort to try and clarify issues that seem to have arisen in the Piracy Redux thread regarding the "hunting environment" of pirates.

In order to try and compare apples to apples versus the apple to oranges issues that sometimes creep up in discussions, I'd like to propose the following possible "standards" for use in discussing the original CT rules and the trade/economic rules from CT. Since the history of the Imperium seems to be predicated on the original CT rules to begin with, it would appear that this would be the ideal "methodology" to use.

Now, how does one create a "standard" by which we can measure the effectiveness of J1 cargo ships versus J2 cargo ships? Well, we could do it strictly by displacement. In other words, take two hulls, both at 200 dtons, and build a strictly "legal" book two version of the hulls and using strictly the rules as given in the book. One hull would be built as a Jump 2 hull, while the other hull would be built as a Jump 1 hull.

Another possible standard we can use is that of the "revenue generation" aspects. Thus, we would have to design ships that had the same number of passenger staterooms as well as low berths as well as cargo space allocated for the carrying of cargo. Clearly, the two ships will be of differing hull displacements, but the revenue generation potential will be the same. For the sake of this "mental exercise", I'd like to propose using the same hull size as the standard for comparison rather than the same revenue generation standard.

Ok, using the rules from CT's book 2 ship design rules, lets build the absolute cheapest minimal complexity cargo carrying tramp freighter. Thus, we're going to build a hull whose only purpose is to carry freight/cargo from one location to another. Thus, we're going to design a J1 ship that does nothing more than carry cargo/freight - no passengers.

Jump-A, Manuever-A, Powerplant-A will result in a hull that can achieve a Jump-1, Manuever-1, and powerplant-1 aspect. Total volume used is 15 dtons - thus qualifying us to be able to buy a discounted hull. We want only the bare minimal staterooms, as this will always be an unarmed freighter maximized for cargo hauling. Thus, we need to have only 3 staterooms for our craft - one each for the manditory pilot, engineer, and medic. Net use of volume thus far is 27 dtons (15 for engineroom and 12 for staterooms). We have to allocated 20 dtons for the Bridge. Next, we need to have enough fuel for a jump 1, or 20 dtons for the fuel. Then we need to allocate a total of 10 x Pn for the powerplant usage, or an additional 10 dtons for fuel. Net tonnage used thus far has become 57 dtons. We're not going to include anything else for this craft, as the captain of the ship isn't going to be carrying his own air-raft from world to world. If it has people, it has transportation services for rent. Next, we need to allocated an additional 1 dton for the ship's Model-1 computer. Total volume used within the 200 dton hull is: 15 (drives)+20 (bridge) + 1 (computer) + 12 (stateroom) + 30 (fuel tanks) or 78 dtons. This leaves the ship with a total of 122 dtons for cargo/freight. Cost of the ship is: 2 MCr (hull) + 22 MCr (drives) + 1 MCr (Bridge) + 1.5 MCr (Staterooms) + 2 MCr (Computer) or 28.5 MCr total (not including the 10% discounted costs possible).

Jump-2 version: Drives required are Jump-B, Manuever-A, Powerplant-B to give us Jump-2, Manuever-1, and Powerplant-2. Net Volume for the drives are 23 dtons. Fuel required for this hull will be 40 dtons for the jump and 20 dtons for the powerplant, for a net total of 60 dtons for fuel. All other volume expenditures will be the same as for the J-1 version because it will have but 3 staterooms, 1 dton for the computer, etc. Total volume used:
23 (drives) + 20 (Bridge) + 1 (computer) + 12 (staterooms) + 60 (fuel) or 116 dtons allocated. This leaves us with a total of 84 dtons of cargo space.

Cost: 20 MCr (hull) + 40 MCr (drives) + 1 MCr (Bridge) + 1.5 (Stateroom) + 4 MCr (computer) or 66.5 MCr total (not including the 10% discounted costs).

Now lets compare a Jump-1 freighter versus a Jump-2 freighter

 

[Hal]

Per the rules given under the heading of Starship economics, we have the following data:

Down payment: 20%
Jump-1 freighter: 5.70 MCr.
Jump-2 freighter: 13.30 MCr.

Monthly payments:
Jump-1 freighter: 118,750
Jump-2 freighter: 277,083.33

Crew costs for both:
12,000 Cr per month for pilot, engineer, & Medic

Life support per month for 3 staterooms: 4,000 x 3 or 12,000 Cr

Routine Maintenance per year:
J-1 freighter: 285,000 Cr
J-2 freighter: 665,000 Cr

Berthing costs per month (assumes 2 trips per month): 200 Cr.

Thus setting the background for discussing the effectiveness of a J-1 ship versus a J-2 ship. For purposes of discussion, we will use Supplement 3 SPINWARD MARCHES, Regina subsector for a commonality in discussing the effectiveness of a J-2 freighter versus a Jump-1 freighter. Both ships will be on Regina looking for freight to ship and securing speculative cargo. Show all work

 

[Hal]

As best as I can tell, the relevant passage regarding fees and income for Traveller's "per parsec" travel is found under the heading of "Passengers" in the CT book. It reads:

"Differences in starship jump drive capacity have no specific effect on passage prices. A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The difference is that a jump-3 starship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations, and require three separate tickets). Higher jump numbers also make make otherwise inacccessible destinations within reach."

This then implies, that just as passengers pay on a per jump basis, cargo/freight would also pay on a per parsec basis. Thus, for freight to reach a destination 2 parsecs away, the shipper has to pay 2,000 per dton of cargo carried to the destination on a Jump-1 ship, while the shipper will only have to pay 1,000 Cr per dton of cargo transported to a destination 2 parsecs away when using a J-2 freighter.

For the sake of this "discussion" - assume that you have two individuals, brothers if you will, who were both beneficiaries of their grandfather's estate when he passed away, leaving them both with 20 MCr to use (after taxes of course!).

 

[far-trader]

I think your use of "per-parsec" above is confusing. It is still priced per jump, and as noted shipping the same cargo to a destination 2 parsecs away will cost twice as much (and take longer) by J1 than by J2. So obviously there is no trans-shipment by J1 (unless there are no J2 ships available), the only cargo a J1 ship will find is that going 1 parsec.

 

[robject]

I think your use of "per-parsec" above is confusing. It is still priced per jump, and as noted shipping the same cargo to a destination 2 parsecs away will cost twice as much (and take longer) by J1 than by J2. So obviously there is no trans-shipment by J1 (unless there are no J2 ships available), the only cargo a J1 ship will find is that going 1 parsec.

I dunno; what I read from this is that there is trans-shipment by J1. Or, rather, that it is allowed, simply because it is not excluded, and in fact seems to be strongly implied.

 

[far-trader]

Allowed sure, or at least not prohibited. But nobody will do it if there is a J2 ship available like I said (and should have expressed clearer perhaps). So I think the "per-parsec" statement will only lead to confusion and end up with people thinking a J2 ship can charge Cr2000 per ton to ship cargo.

 

[Hal]

On the presumption that the Jump-1 brother wants to head towards Efate, a total of 6 parsecs, the rolls for cargo would be based on a destination world with a pop 9. With a 3 tech level difference between Regina and Efate in Efate's favor, we would be rolling:

1d6+5-3 or 1d6+2. Average of 3 for a 1d6 would result in about 5 Major Cargoes for our Jump-1 captain. Assuming an average roll of 3 for the lot size, we'd get 5 x 3 x 10 or 150 dtons of major lots of cargo.

1d6+6-2 = 1d6+3 minor cargoes, or about 6 minor cargo lots available. This works out to 6 x 3 x 5 or 90 dtons of cargo.

1d6-2-2 = 1d6-4 incidental lots, or on average -1 dtons of incidental tons of cargo.

Depending on the rolls, both captains should be able to fill their cargo holds almost to the brim. So call it 120 dtons of cargo for our Jump-1 captain, and 80 dtons for our Jump-2 captain.

6 parsecs distance, Jump-1 captain takes 6 jumps to achieve his goal. His gross income will be 120 dtons x 6,000 or approximately 720,000 for hauling it from Regina to Efate. Since this took him 6 jumps or about 12 weeks, that's 3 month's time or roughly 240,000 Cr per month. The Jump-2 captain, took only 3 jumps to reach Efate with his 80 dtons of cargo, earning approximately 240,000. However, time spent in transit was not 12 weeks, but instead, only 6 weeks (1.5 months). The Jump-2 captain has earned approximately 160,000 per month. Since the Jump-2 captain has pay a monthly payment to the bank of 277,083.33, clearly, the Jump-2 captain can not afford to handle "routine freight". The Jump-1 captain on the other hand, with a monthly bank payment of 118,750, can afford to handle routine freight transport. He also has sufficient income over and above his monthly bank payments to handle his 24,200 credit per month payments for wages and berthing fees.

I'm not saying that the Jump-2 ships wouldn't be more efficient for the shippers as far as actual "shipping costs", but with a mandated income based on a "Per jump" basis rather than a per parsec basis - the Jump-2 ship has problems handling only routine freight shipping business. It would appear that the only way a J-2 ship can survive the original Traveller economic rules is if the ship engages in a LOT of speculative trade.

 

[atpollard]

122 cargo ton Jump-1 Ship Fixed Operating Expenses:
1. 118,750 Cr per Month bank payment (28.5 MCR / 240)
2. 12,000 Cr per Month Crew Salaries (6000+4000+2000)
3. 12,000 Cr per Month Life Support
4. 5,000 Cr per Month PP Fuel (10 tons x 500 Cr)
5. 2,375 Cr per Month Annual Maintenance (28,500 / 12)

122 cargo ton Jump-1 Ship “Per Jump” Operating Expenses:
6. 10,000 Cr per Jump JD Fuel (20 tons x 500 Cr)
7. 100 Cr per Jump Berthing Fee

For a Jump 1 route, assuming full cargo holds and 25 jumps per year (with 2 week maintenance), the annual revenue is 122 tons x 1000 Cr x 25 jumps = 3.05 MCr per Year. The annual operating expenses are 12 months x 150,125 Cr/month plus 25 jumps x 10,100 Cr/jump = 2.054 MCr per Year. The ship has a net annual profit of 3.05 MCr – 2.054 MCr = 996,000 Credits.

For a Jump 2 route [the ship performs 2 consecutive Jump-1 trips to deliver the cargo to a world 2 parsecs away], assuming full cargo holds and 12 trades (24 jumps) per year (with 2 week maintenance and 7 days lost refueling between jumps), the annual revenue is 122 tons x 2000 Cr x 12 jumps = 2.928 MCr per Year. The annual operating expenses are 12 months x 150,125 Cr/month plus 24 jumps x 10,100 Cr/jump = 2.0439 MCr per Year. The ship has a net annual profit of 2.928 MCr – 2.0439 MCr = 884,100 Credits.
[NOTE: LBB2 charges “per jump”, so 2 consecutive jumps = 2000 Cr per ton of cargo.]

84 cargo ton Jump-2 Ship Fixed Operating Expenses:
1. 277,083 Cr per Month bank payment (66.5 MCR / 240)
2. 12,000 Cr per Month Crew Salaries (6000+4000+2000)
3. 12,000 Cr per Month Life Support
4. 10,000 Cr per Month PP Fuel (20 tons x 500 Cr)
5. 5,542 Cr per Month Annual Maintenance (66,500 / 12)

84 cargo ton Jump-2 Ship “Per Jump” Operating Expenses:
6. 20,000 Cr per Jump JD Fuel (40 tons x 500 Cr)
7. 100 Cr per Jump Berthing Fee

For a Jump 1 route, assuming full cargo holds and 25 jumps per year (with 2 week maintenance), the annual revenue is 84 tons x 1000 Cr x 25 jumps = 2.1 MCr per Year. The annual operating expenses are 12 months x 311,625 Cr/month plus 25 jumps x 10,100 Cr/jump = 3.992 MCr per Year. The ship has a net annual profit of 2.1 MCr – 3.992 MCr = - 1.892 MCr (the ship operates at a LOSS of 75,700 credits per Jump). [NOTE: A J2 ship operating at J1 is assumed to use the JD fuel at the J1 rate.]

For a Jump 2 route, assuming full cargo holds and 25 jumps per year (with 2 week maintenance), the annual revenue is 84 tons x 1000 Cr x 25 jumps = 2.1 MCr per Year. The annual operating expenses are 12 months x 311,625 Cr/month plus 25 jumps x 20,100 Cr/jump = 4.242 MCr per Year. The ship has a net annual profit of 2.1 MCr – 4.242 MCr = - 2.142 MCr (the ship operates at a LOSS of 85,700 credits per Jump).

SUMMARY:
A Jump-1 ship on Jump-1 Route earns 996,000 Credits per year.
A Jump-1 ship on Jump-2 Route earns 884,100 Credits per year.
A Jump-2 ship on Jump-1 Route looses 1,892,000 Credits per year.
A Jump-2 ship on Jump-2 Route looses 2,142,000 Credits per year.

CONCLUSION:
A Jump-2 ship will steal all of the cargo and passengers until it goes bankrupt,
then the Jump-1 ships will take over.

Arthur

 

[Anthony]

Allowed sure, or at least not prohibited. But nobody will do it if there is a J2 ship available like I said (and should have expressed clearer perhaps). So I think the "per-parsec" statement will only lead to confusion and end up with people thinking a J2 ship can charge Cr2000 per ton to ship cargo.

There's an issue here: exactly what force is preventing the person with a J2 ship from charging Cr2000 per ton? The buyer doesn't care -- paying Cr2000 for one jump vs paying Cr1000 twice for two jumps makes no difference to his bottom line. The owners of other J2 ships have no motivation to force him to lower his rates. The owners of J1 ships can only force him to lower his rates by charging less than Cr2000 for two jumps.

I suppose the Imperium could have regulations covering allowable freight costs, but it seems rather more intrusive than the Imperium normally bothers with.

 

[robject]

Basically, I think we think too much, and don't play Traveller nearly enough.

Allowed sure, or at least not prohibited. But nobody will do it if there is a J2 ship available like I said (and should have expressed clearer perhaps). So I think the "per-parsec" statement will only lead to confusion and end up with people thinking a J2 ship can charge Cr2000 per ton to ship cargo.

But I didn't get that impression, and I don't suppose you did either? Nor did the previous poster? So...

I understand your argument, but I guarantee that if I'm playing the captain of a Free Trader, I'm not going to ask myself why this world is willing to pay me to haul freight six parsecs away... especially if my hold would otherwise be empty... I mean, we know how hard it can be to break even in this thing...

There's an issue here: exactly what force is preventing the person with a J2 ship from charging Cr2000 per ton? The buyer doesn't care -- paying Cr2000 for one jump vs paying Cr1000 twice for two jumps makes no difference to his bottom line. The owners of other J2 ships have no motivation to force him to lower his rates. The owners of J1 ships can only force him to lower his rates by charging less than Cr2000 for two jumps.

I suppose the Imperium could have regulations covering allowable freight costs, but it seems rather more intrusive than the Imperium normally bothers with.

I think you're asking the wrong question, but only because these rules are meant to be enjoyed rather than analyzed...

 

[Zowy]

Without speculation most free traders and many subsidized merchants would go bankrupt. But the tramp ships are bought used at 30% to 80% of a new ships cost and with lower fixed cossts can stay in bussines. Only a Shiping firm with long term contracts or a subsidezed mail rout can get bank loans for new ships, with 20% down. I sure as heck would not lend out 40Mcr-100Mcr to an "adventure type" for a new ship without more casg up front.... o:

 

[Anthony]

I think you're asking the wrong question, but only because these rules are meant to be enjoyed rather than analyzed...

If your goal is to have the rules be enjoyed rather than analyzed, don't bother with freight rates at all. For that matter, don't bother with mortgages. Just declare that the ship, in normal operation, is just barely breaking even, and ignore the details of how it's going about doing that.

If you're going to go to the extent of calculations about mortgages and salaries, you can go to the extent of calculating freight rates in a rational manner.

 

[atpollard]

Routine Maintenance per year:
J-1 freighter: 285,000 Cr
J-2 freighter: 665,000 Cr

Maintenance is 0.1% = 1/1000 the cost of the ship.
J-1 freighter: 28,500 Cr
J-2 freighter: 66,500 Cr

 

[Hal]

The thing to remember here, is that the table for determining what cargoes are available for shipment from any given world to another world does not imply that the world has to be within ONE jump.

In theory? Shipping cargo from Regina to Efate in one jump increments of 1 parsec per jump is as equally valid is shipping that same cargo/freight via a ship that handles 2 parsecs per jump and does it in 3 jumps.

What is the major issue here, as has been questioned was "Why is it that the prices are rigidly held to 1,000 credits per jump?" What keeps the market from charging 2,000 credits per jump?

In the example I gave in my original posts, the distance to be traversed by the J-1 ship to its destination 6 parsecs away, required that it do so in 6 one parsec jumps. It was transshipped by ONE ship the entire distance instead of taken aboard one ship for the first jump, a second ship for the second jump etc.

Now - here's the rub. In a game universe where the shipping charges are per parsec travelled rather than per jump travelled, the Jump-2 ship would in fact, be the more efficient. In the original CT universe however, this was not the case.

One thing to keep in mind is that if you're shipping something that is worth 100 credits per unit, and you can carry 1,000 units in a space approximating (including the shipping container) 1 displacement ton, adding on an additional 1,000 credits to the overall price of the items being shipped isn't all that big of a deal. Why? 1,000 credits spread over 1,000 items means that the cost of that item was forced to increase by the S&H costs. 1000 credits divided by 1,000 items makes it 1 credit per item actual S&H cost. Throw in the fact that each item was originally worth 100 credits, and that 1 item's cost increase is only 1% of its net value.

Truth is? I think that the designers of the game made a mistake in making it a strictly "per jump" value for income instead of a pro-rated per parsec value. Real life trucking/railhead shipping and container shipping aboard ships tend to use formulas based on the weight of the item in question versus its volume required. Carrying 10,000 lbs worth of feathers is probably going to take up a heck of a lot of space than is 10,000 lbs worth of iron rebar rods for construction work. On one hand, the cost per lb is a more worthwhile measure while the cost per volume taken is a better measure for other things.

In the end analysis - if using the original rules as presented in CT (I don't recall if MT was the same), the ships with a higher Jump rating could not handle the relatively low incomes for the reduced "revenue generating" capacity of any given ship.

One aspect of the rules for Traveller's random freight/cargo lot sizes is that they are almost always in values of 5's and 10's. Having a cargo hold that is 84 tons in size means that in order to fill in that oddball 4 dtons of cargo space, you need to buy speculative cargo yourself in order to handle it. A "Trading" company that buys a warehouse, and hires men to look for speculative cargo on the world where they are stationed, will manage to gather up a lot of speculative cargo while the ship is on runs between worlds. When it comes back to the main world with the warehouse on it, they will find that the cargo they own in the warehouse is already waiting for them to load up and take elsewhere. Such a business could in theory, generate enough income to pay for a Jump-2+ hull. Note however, that the income/revenue being generated exceeds the standard "1,000 per dton" aspect of shipping ordinary freight.

Now - it is one thing to do the "rational" thing and state that the Imperium suffers the same problems that any other "free economy" has overall - competition often lowering prices. It is another to state that the Imperium has what amounts to a controlled economy where one price is mandated by law and everyone has to work under those conditions. Truth be told? I suspect that the CT when it was fashioned in its day and age, had to choose between a simple economic set of rules at the expense of playability. Why? Because it would have taken a heck of a bit more skull sweat to come up with something that was a bit less intrusive, yet was reasonably realistic - which is what many of us players would rather have.

The point of this thread however, was to reference the frame of mind where one uses the rules as STATED in the game itself, and was in use when the material regarding the Third Imperium was originally written. By the "logic" involved with the original rules, starships were USUALLY going to be Jump-1 ships because it was TOO costly to buy/purchase jump-2 ships and engage in normal transshipment of goods as a freight carrier. However, when you get right down to it, if the rules and regulations in the Official Traveller Universe were such that you could only earn 1,000 credits per jump per dton of freight carried - then it would explain much.

One thing I did note was the fact that even with the original CT rules, there were instances where one earned more than the standard 1,000 credits per dton of freight carried. How? The Mail run. The mail run in effect permittied the ship to dedicate 5 dtons of cargo space towards the shipping of mail for 25,000 Cr regardless of whether the mail took up 1 dton or 5 dtons. The problem here however, was the fact that in the end, it wasn't worth it. Why? The ship had to be armed. This required that 1 dton be set aside for fire control and the turret. Thus, the ship now has to set aside 6 dtons of cargo space to earn the $25,000. Then on top of that, each turret had to have a gunner, which requires another 4 dtons of cargo space be set aside for the $25,000 dtons, neccessitating a total "hull volume" set aside for 10 dtons. This means that instead of earning 25,000 Cr per jump at 5,000 Cr per dton, you're only earning $2,500 per. However? The gunner's pay reduces that by $500 per jump. The gunner's life support reduces it by another 2,000 Cr per jump.

Net result?

25,000 gross pay
-500 per jump pay of gunner
-2000 per lifesupport cost per jump for gunner
-2,000 (approx) for monthly payment of cheap 1 MCr weapon system.

20,100 divided by 10 dtons after all other expenses taken out means that you're not getting 5,000 Cr per dton, but something closer to 2,010 or so. Granted, a captain/owner could have purchased a weapon system after he bought the ship with 20% down and all that - having paid cash on the barrel for the turret and stuff. But it doesn't alter my point - taking a mail run is worth about 2,000 to 2,500 per dton for at most, 5 dtons of cargo capacity.

It would be interesting to build the history of the Third Imperium TODAY using the internet and a few simulation tools such as POCKET EMPIRES or such, while using say, GURPS FAR TRADER principles for determing the general shipping rates for a reasonably competative free market society. I suspect that things would have been written somewhat differently than had been done back in the days when CT was the one and only, and people were waiting for MERCHANT PRINCE to come out

My whole purpose in starting this thread was to explore the ramifications of what was involved in the CT universe back in the day when there was only ONE set of rules and GDW was working feverishly to put out new products to meet the demand.

 

[Matt123]

Good post Hal. It puts the ball firmly into the 'J1 ships are numerous' camp & gives yet another justification why J1 ships would take commisions to deliver cargo 2 parsecs away through 'empty' systems - the regular J2 ship just went broke!

& this was done without including spec cargo or considering Tramp ships with a fraction of the mortgage payments.

Obviously I enjoyed your post

There's an issue here: exactly what force is preventing the person with a J2 ship from charging Cr2000 per ton?

Supply & Demand of cargo carrying capacity at affordable rates. If you consider that the basic charge by J1 traders is 1000cr per ton/parsec, a megacorp can build a vessel charging the same rate but with the speed & security of a multi-jump trip.

Of course both systems have to be able to provide large quantities of cargo to fill this ship at both ends (eg: high Pop worlds, A & B starports, Capitals, etc). Additionally over a 2 parsec distance the megacorp needs to have two large freighters running or risk losing the speed advantage over J1 traders every second week. And if there is no Pirate threat (Pirates don't exist arguement...) the security advantage of skipping the 'empty' system won't wash with cargo brokers.

At this level of one Megacorp competing vs J1 Traders you could get the Megacorp undercutting the J1 traders, charging say 1800cr per ton/2 parsecs jump to secure full holds (representing a 10% discount).

With systems capable of supporting two megacorps (4 freighters) or more, the competition is between each other & the price will trend down in the effort to ensure full holds. 1000cr per jump does seem a liitle arbitrary, but forgivable as the rules were written with the PC's in mind as independents.

So in systems supported by J1 Traders in the main, I see no reason to prevent a J2 Trader from competing & charging on a parsec basis (ie: 2000cr per ton/Jump), especially if they offer security (Pirates exist arguement...) as well as speed. Arguably if Pirates exist & thier J2 capacity is rare, they could charge a premium over the J1 rate.

Yet in systems supported by large J2 freighters, I would expect the prices to have trended down to the 1000cr per ton/jump.

If you accept this arguement, it mans that Far Traders become viable again in the intent of the author as they roam visiting planets off the beaten track & sporadically serviced by other small J2 traders. They will pick up cargo at or near 2000cr per jump whilst avoiding systems being serviced at prices they will go broke at.

Having said that, I'd still pick the J1 Trader as being the better bet & far more numerous.

Cheers!
Matt

 

[Hal]

Maintenance is 0.1% = 1/1000 the cost of the ship.
J-1 freighter: 28,500 Cr
J-2 freighter: 66,500 Cr

Ooops. I used 1% didn't I? Good catch

 

[far-trader]

Maybe I'm just tired but all I can think is "because that's how the game is played" in response to it all. It's not right or wrong, it's just the rules used to have fun. Like why do we count to 100 in hide and seek? Why not a random number? Or a count based on the number of players and distance to optimal hiding places? Or... you see the point yes? It just is.

One bit of lost lore and high jump trade. The original printing of CT included a table for generating commercial traffic routes between world pairs based on starports. It maxed out at J4 and that only 2 in 6 times for A-A and A-B worlds, and 1 in 6 times for B-B worlds. Oh what the heck, the table should be ok under fair use discussion guidelines. Provided for game perspective here it is:

Roll 1D6 equal or greater than the number shown to make a trade link:

    World     jump distance
    pair    J1   J2   J3   J4
    A-A     1    2    4    5
    A-B     1    3    4    5
    A-C     1    4    6    -
    A-D     1    5    -    -
    A-E     2    -    -    -
    B-B     1    3    4    6
    B-C     2    4    6    -
    B-D     3    6    -    -
    B-E     4    -    -    -
    C-C     3    6    -    -
    C-D     4    -    -    -
    C-E     4    -    -    -
    D-D     4    -    -    -
    D-E     5    -    -    -
    E-E     6    -    -    -

 

[Hal]

Thanks for posting that table Dan. I do have to wonder however, why GDW discontinued its use so quickly. Ah well, roads not taken I suppose.

 

[daryen]

The thing to remember here, is that the table for determining what cargoes are available for shipment from any given world to another world does not imply that the world has to be within ONE jump.

Yes, actually, it does. A ship is to only consider worlds that can be reached in the next jump.

The problem is that you are trying to assign way too much meaning to a system that is intended to drive adventure. It doesn't work in a macro sense. (Heck, it doesn't even really work in a micro sense.) It is just a way to give some actual numbers to run with while players go from adventure to adventure. Trying to make any real sense out of the Traveller trade system is just going to drive you nuts.

So, to a large extent, Robert is correct.

However, I completely agree with Anthony. Why bother?

If the point of the Traveller trade system is to drive adventure (which it pretty much has to be since it makes absolutely no economic sense), then why even bother at all? Just say that the characters are "struggling" and go from there. Why the need for numbers at all? It is all arbitrary. Just make the stuff up and go.

In summary,
- All pricing in the standard Traveller trade system is per jump. *None* of it is per parsec.
- Per jump pricing is economically unsustainable and nonsensical.

So, trying to figure out a larger context to the trade rules as given in CT is an exercise in pure futility. Please feel free to make the journey. Just don't expect to actually arrive at a destination.

 

[Hal]

Yes, actually, it does. A ship is to only consider worlds that can be reached in the next jump.

Cite please? I don't mean it in a sarcastic manner, but as a means of correcting myself on the grounds I missed something

Edit: It should be noted, that when generating passengers etc, all that is required is that you state where your next destination is to be. The closest thing that comes to matching what you yourself pointed out above reads:

"Cargo: Starships may inquire at a starport about the number, sizes, and destinations of cargos awaiting transportation. The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number), and roll for each such world on the cargo table."

Note that this does not state "within one jump", it just states "(depending on jump number)". All this means is that the ship has to be able to reach that given world based on its own jump limitations. A J1 ship could not for example, cross a void that is 2 parsecs of empty space before reaching a destination that was 3 parsecs away from the original jump point (not without a mis-jump!). Had it read "Within the jump distance of the ship" instead of "(depending on jump number)" I'd agree with you whole heartedly that all destinations had to be within 1 jump away. However? Then I'd have to ask you "What happened when there were only Jump-1 ships and then jump-2 ships prior to jump-3 ever being invented by the Terrans during the Nth frontier war era?

In all? I'm hoping that you can point out the cite that you seem certain exists based on your statement. It would be interesting if you are correct