Legal requirements for Quarantine

[aramis]

The ability to PLAN a task in advance, even if it involves no tools, instead of just using instinctive or rote-learned behavior, is proof.

this would also include dolphins and all the great apes; Gibbons haven't been used in the three stage experiements.

 

[Drakon]

See, there's a cultural bias trap right there. Stone spear points. A spear doesn't need a stone point; it could just be a sharpened (as opposed to merely sharp) stick.

I don't think this is going to be a big deal. Stone would be one of the earliest materials used, along with wood. If you can think of any other artifacts, I would like to hear them.

The trick is to figure out what is the bare minimum to indicate conclusively what species is or is not sentient. Stone spears, (or arrows,) are different enough from sharp sticks to show intelligence. As you point out, there may be difficulty telling a sharp stick from a sharpened stick. But with stone tips, that is definitive.

Artifacts are nice as proof, but do they prove sentience, or sapience? Behavior is really the key to unequivocable classification.

I think so. It's their behaviour that ends up with stone tipped spears. That behaviour is indicated in the product.

So, the whole "three-stage tool-making" thing, if broadened to "perform three-stage tasks" could work. The ability to PLAN a task in advance, even if it involves no tools, instead of just using instinctive or rote-learned behavior, is proof.

You get into problems distinquishing such planning from non-sentience pack hunting. Physical evidence, like spear points works better.

 

[Doyle Hunt]

As you say. I'll stop arguing now. That's the great thing about debates; they don't change anyone's mind (politicians take note!) but they help you refine your arguments.

I doubt either of us will ever convince the other, but since we game in different universes, that's okay.

 

[Jacqual]

In the case of Dolphins this is from a site devoted to them.

http://www.dolphin-institute.org/resource_guide/animal_language.htm

Peter Tyack later reported that one dolphin could imitate another’s whistle, thereby possibly referring to or calling that individual. As was noted earlier, referring symbolically to another individual, or to some other object or event in the environment, is one of the basic characteristics of a language. However, we still do not know to what extent the dolphin’s whistles may be used to refer to things other than themselves or another dolphin. This is a fruitful area for additional study, however.

 

[aramis]

Dolphins can execute 3 action command sequences, and can respond to questions using punch boards. (Nova.)

 

[Drakon]

As you say. I'll stop arguing now. That's the great thing about debates; they don't change anyone's mind (politicians take note!) but they help you refine your arguments.

I doubt either of us will ever convince the other, but since we game in different universes, that's okay.

I did not think we were debating. You seemed to have figured out exactly what facets of sentience I am trying to test for. While I do not claim my list is exhaustive, and am looking for more tests, you seemed to have worked out a key part of making the list.

The trick is to find objective evidence, and artifacts are the best thing for use as proof. Having your list of sentient facets is great for figuring out what objective proof for those facets we can come up with.