More correctly, it was his mustering out that made him the 15. Which I decided for his particular background would mean that since he has now left the service he has the potential to return and claim his birthright.
Duke on board - Need Advice
- Thread starter Anthelios
- Start date
More correctly, it was his mustering out that made him the 15. Which I decided for his particular background would mean that since he has now left the service he has the potential to return and claim his birthright.
R
Rev Round
Guest
If you are going to quote me out of context then go ahead. Your questions don't make sense regarding my original statements and the previous texts written by others.
(my excuse for the above is I am not that good with the jiggery pokery of word processing and am much better with image processing)
"No, he's far more powerful than any king."
A Duke not showing deference to a King would make an ass of himself in society. Not an intelligent thing to do. It undermines title. Power?
This is a major problem with the simpleton structure of the noble in this role playing game. Because rank and title are confused in one stat. It is in effect presented as a lower middle class view of nobility. Heavily imbued with wannabe tonality. Power and wealth seen erroneously as an accomplishment.
If an actor were to play this part with such undeveloped background it would appear flat, unrealistic, and the usual truncated reality of Hollyweird.
Nobility is a different tribe to the "Families" in Sicily and is structured and operated differently. How does your simplistic concept of power fit into that melange?
I base my "claim" as you put it on intelligence being a factor of interacting smoothly enough within society to retain credibility let alone power. An aristo requires intelligence to be cultivated. The Empress analogy is a reference to a previous post citing Emperor of the Earth being a similar powerful enough example of what a Duke is in your "present day" Trav Universe.
I previously made myself perfectly clear regarding power and wealth not being an index of accomplishment in this post and previous.
Queen Elizabeth? Which one? The present one is the on off button to parliament. That is the only "power" she has. The living embodiment of one simple piece of bureaucracy. The accomplishments transcend that unenviable position.
"Almost all dukes have immense power and influence. All the ones that are mentioned in canon have." <<< yes "worthy" of mention or just ignoring the thousands upon thousands of Dukes in that particular fictional empire? All mentioned enthread regarding quantity of Dukes generated as per canon. boom! boom! AND being a Duke is not the job.
Like I said before, do you really want a Hollyweird cliché?
A real aristo who does not even attempt to transcend nobility itself is unworthy.
Try keeping up at the back there. You appear to think traveller precedes reality.
Last edited:
R
Rev Round
Guest
Sounds like you are the one getting away from it all. :rofl:
Last edited:
How did I quote you out of context?
I posed one question:
You had written, "He might find himself politely sidelined if he tries to push his non-weight around."
To which I asked, "And you base this claim on what, exactly?"
To elucidate, I was challenging you to either provide canonical backing for your bald statement of fact or rephrase it as an unsupported opinion.
A nobleman who was socially inferior to a king would, yes. My point was that Imperial dukes, who rule over 30 or 40 worlds are so much more powerful than rulers of small subdivisions of individual worlds that they wouldn't be socially inferior to mere kings.
There's nothing simplistic in assuming a strong correlation between wealth and power on the one hand and social position on the other. To assume that the correlation is 1 would be simplistic, yes, but game stats are supposed to simplify complicated situations down to simple die rolls.
My concept of power is that there often is a correlation between power and social position. Often enough that it's the default assumption. Sure, a first generation crime lord does not have the social position to match his power, but throughout history we see various forms of successful criminals insinuate themselves into the fabric of their societies at a level commensuate with their wealth and power.And sure, the sovereign Medieval king of a small postage stamp of a country has a higher social level than the duke of some much bigger province, but that's because the duke's own king treats the small king as a peer and thus elevates him to his own level. But in the Imperium, there ARE no kings more powerful than Imperial dukes to give the other a leg up. None.
Whereas I was asking for some canonical statement that justified you in making such a bald statement as if it was a fact and not an opinion.
Then I failed to make myself clear. My point was that even if Earth did have a world emperor, he'd still be further down the social food chain than someone who ruled over many worlds.
Not really. The correlation of power and wealth with social prominence should be too obvious to require proof. Just have a look at any society on Earth, past or present.
Yes, but kings used to be powerful, which is why royalty got to the top of the social scale in the first place. I never said that the correlation between power and social position was absolute. As long as people treat someone royal as something special, they'll remain socially prominent. But why should an Interstellar society treat the ruler of a small subdivision of one world as more important than the ruler of 30 worlds?
Does the Imperium actually routinely elevate a whole bunch of its long-time navy veterans, officers and non-coms alike, to rank besides its most powerful noblemen, or is that a flawed effect of the Character Generation System? That's where examining the rest of the canon comes in. Is there a single example of a navy veteran who was elevated to duke anywhere in canon? Is there a lot of examples? And in addition to examining canon, one might also examine the concept itelf. Is it plausible? Has that sort of thing been seen in any historical example? Was Victorian England overrun with a dozen reward dukes for every hereditary one? Was any other country?
Like I said before, do you really want a Hollyweird cliché?
A real aristo who does not even attempt to transcend nobility itself is unworthy.
Try keeping up at the back there. You appear to think traveller precedes reality.
On the contrary, I believe that plausibility is of immense importance to any role-playing setting. So I can't tell you if I want a cliché until you tell me which one. If it's a plausible one, then sure, I want it.
Hans
epicenter00
SOC-13
That's an interesting view and generates a bunch of possible complications. For instance, in many inheritance systems, getting married to someone of lower rank would lower the rank of the higher-ranked spouse ("If he/she is so gauche to thin his/her blood by marrying...him/her...") so the Duke's relations could be clambering for that solution, especially considering that'd put themselves or their kids in the line of succession instead. However, what if the current Duke is pro-Imperial and the 3I's hold on the world has been traditionally weak/non-existent until recently and it's in the best interests of the Emperor to have a Navy man ruling the world?
---
As for Soc for me, it's a rating of "how easily/quickly are you able to talk to someone important based on social station alone?" This doesn't have to be a state visit with pomp and ceremony, it could be simply a willingness for someone important to talk to you for an hour on a Tuesday afternoon "off the record" in their office or perhaps right outside of their office to speak of something like having a starship inspection schedule sped up, allowing a group of people to investigate the local Droyne ruins, etc.
The higher ranked (and more important) of a person who is willing to see you on relatively short notice (within a week of requesting it) based on your name alone represent Soc in my games. Obviously with the proper skills this becomes much easier, but basic Traveller lacks skills and you never get enough to cover all the abilities a character should have. So, I use Soc as a "stand-in" for social ranks that a character should have, but may not be able to get (especially in LBB Traveller).
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Exactly... for PCs a very high Soc is a game mechanic for easing through trouble... "Officer, do you know who I am, and would your supervisor appreciate questions about your treatment of me?" (as he pulls out his other set of Imperial ID), and facilitating tasks... "If you give me access to those records, I can see to it that you receive a great write-up in the next Journal of the Imperial Archives, and a letter of thanks sent to the head of the Imperial Library Appropriations Office".
This focus on the <100 Dukes in the Imperium ignores their thousands of children, cousins, etc... what is the Soc of a navy CPO whose uncle is a sector Duke? What if his second cousin (once removed) holds the same rank?
Wouldn't people still treat them as high nobility based on the trouble that not doing so could create?
There are lots of people who, in the ways that matter to PCs, have a lot of "pull" based on their relatives, not their own position.
And the paparazzi issue is easily dealt with... most nobility have a plethora of names... Prince William of Wales* is fully named William Arthur Philip Louis [of Windsor], it would not be unreasonable for him to be able to finagle an official ID in the name of Arthur Louis**.
After all, the name on his UK military ID card and records is William Wales... not William Windsor or William of Wales.
*Prince of Wales is not a permanent title, thus the ID gives a fictitious last name.
**3 sectors away from home, what reporter would be looking for him under that name?
This focus on the <100 Dukes in the Imperium ignores their thousands of children, cousins, etc... what is the Soc of a navy CPO whose uncle is a sector Duke? What if his second cousin (once removed) holds the same rank?
Wouldn't people still treat them as high nobility based on the trouble that not doing so could create?
There are lots of people who, in the ways that matter to PCs, have a lot of "pull" based on their relatives, not their own position.
And the paparazzi issue is easily dealt with... most nobility have a plethora of names... Prince William of Wales* is fully named William Arthur Philip Louis [of Windsor], it would not be unreasonable for him to be able to finagle an official ID in the name of Arthur Louis**.
After all, the name on his UK military ID card and records is William Wales... not William Windsor or William of Wales.
*Prince of Wales is not a permanent title, thus the ID gives a fictitious last name.
**3 sectors away from home, what reporter would be looking for him under that name?
The figure is more like 300+. There are ~300 subsectors in the Imperium. Some of them (like Five Sisters, Vilis, Lanth and Aramis) will for one reason or another not have a duke. OTOH there are probably some dukes who do not have a subsector for their dukedom. No canonical mention of any, but I think there would be some. Not very many, though.
How many nephews of sector dukes would enter the Navy as an enlisted man? As for the question, this is just my opinion, but I think the SL of a nephew of a duke (no matter his own occupation) would depend on how close he was to the succession. But it wouldn't be the same as a duke unless he was the heir.
Incidentally, the character generation system does not produce ANY relatives of dukes (unless you count the Nobles career). The highest-ranking relative any product of the CGS has is an Imperial baron (SL 12). What the CGS system does produce are Navy veterans who has gotten a boost to their SL while in the Navy. Hence the talk about reward dukes.
They'd certainly be able to trade on the relationship.
And you don't think people pay attention to his comings and goings anyway?
Have you any idea how difficult it is for celebrities to avoid paparazzi and other scandal sheet vultures? The best scandal sheets have standing offers of a reward for tourists spotting any celebrity when they're on holiday.
In any case, the anonymity would only last until the PC tried to use his status. And if he never uses it, there's no problem.
Hans
Last edited:
What his Courtesy Title is depends upon his closeness to the succession as well, but still makes him a "High muckity muck..."
Most of the Soc 15's in the Imperium will be "courtesy titles"... Spares, siblings, and vacated fiefs.
One PC duke with a fief in one of my games got a mere 1000 shares of Makidhadrun, including 10 voting shares, and an office building in Regni. He broke even after upkeep... he adventured for spending cash.
Most of the Soc 15's in the Imperium will be "courtesy titles"... Spares, siblings, and vacated fiefs.
One PC duke with a fief in one of my games got a mere 1000 shares of Makidhadrun, including 10 voting shares, and an office building in Regni. He broke even after upkeep... he adventured for spending cash.
That's your opinion. My opinion is that only the heirs of archdukes will have ducal courtesy titles. Unless you count spouses, who will have their title as long as they remain associated with the spouse. Children of dukes will have the social rank of their parent (again, at least as long as they're associated with his household), but any courtesy title they have will be one of the parent's secondary titles, so unless the parent holds more than one ducal title, the children will have lesser ones.
That's the kind of duke I just don't believe in. Imperial duke, that is. It sounds fine for a planetary duke.
Hans
Ideals
First of all, I was looking for a solution to a back sector political problem that allowed the player to keep title without granting ultimate power and adds entertainment and challenge. Hopefully it was clear that I was not trying to incorporate every failure point of the European aristocracy. :rofl: Actually, I think the concept of Nobility is a huge failure point of Traveller campaign. This is a high tech universe that understand the basics of genetics and nobility would be a birth right based on the excellent behavior ones ancestors in a forgotten battle or leading a colonization/ terraforming event not biological superiority.
Not to totally negate it. There are always a few that feel they have the better genetic stuff.
Essentially, a back world Duke has many freedoms that a Core sector Duke would not. I could come up with a dozen reasons why it would work, the Hero approach being the easiest. :smirk:
Also, I agree with the need to take SOC with a certain open minded viewpoint for accessing patrons. My original comment was detailed around how we address SOC during character creation. SOC is not just a measure of nobility but a tool for ranking achievements in society.
First of all, I was looking for a solution to a back sector political problem that allowed the player to keep title without granting ultimate power and adds entertainment and challenge. Hopefully it was clear that I was not trying to incorporate every failure point of the European aristocracy. :rofl: Actually, I think the concept of Nobility is a huge failure point of Traveller campaign. This is a high tech universe that understand the basics of genetics and nobility would be a birth right based on the excellent behavior ones ancestors in a forgotten battle or leading a colonization/ terraforming event not biological superiority.
Not to totally negate it. There are always a few that feel they have the better genetic stuff.
Essentially, a back world Duke has many freedoms that a Core sector Duke would not. I could come up with a dozen reasons why it would work, the Hero approach being the easiest. :smirk:
Also, I agree with the need to take SOC with a certain open minded viewpoint for accessing patrons. My original comment was detailed around how we address SOC during character creation. SOC is not just a measure of nobility but a tool for ranking achievements in society.
R
Rev Round
Guest
I already told you.
R
Rev Round
Guest
..........
Last edited:
R
Rev Round
Guest
Use SOC as ease of social interaction no matter what job the other person has but make sure you factor INT in the equation. Then you may have the real advantage of nobility. Cultivation. Networking across divisions created by the process of civilization.
Thus a Duke may be an accomplished violinist and not necessarily a Sector Manager and yet may have the ear of the Sector Manager occasionally. The anarchist duke likewise.
Uncultivated Dukes get sidelined.
Any uncultivated lower middleclass may have money and power.
They are called the "new rich". Hitler, Stalin, Mao.... etc etc.
How it is.
.
Thus a Duke may be an accomplished violinist and not necessarily a Sector Manager and yet may have the ear of the Sector Manager occasionally. The anarchist duke likewise.
Uncultivated Dukes get sidelined.
Any uncultivated lower middleclass may have money and power.
They are called the "new rich". Hitler, Stalin, Mao.... etc etc.
How it is.
.
epicenter00
SOC-13
Currently, "nuture not nature" is the vogue for behavioral inheritance. Those who take the "nature not nuture" view are considered a bit backwards (or some might say, conservative). Perhaps in the future with new scientific (and political, unfortunately) changes, that view might change.
It's easy to imagine during the RoM that detecting such genetic behavioral predisposition markers might have been well-developed. Those entering the Terran forces would be tested and categorized as potential leaders, sub-leaders, and other talents (or even risks). Recruits would then have their dossiers stamped with their codes and be steered towards training and situations to encourage their genetic strengths. "Aleph" we'll say was the code for the "charismatic leader" - such men and women would have been made governors of former Ziru Siirka worlds. More liberal and well-meaning Terrans may have instituted tests amongst the Vilani for the same purposes. The system never completely worked out - for one thing it would be impossible to test an entire population in any reasonable period of time, but there would also be corruption, and regardless the RoM collapsed before the testing was even completed, but it did bring the high-ranking Vilani into the system.
Enter the Long Night. Much technology and knowledge was lost. While people lost the ability to do these "trait tests" the memory of them, perhaps debased into myth or legend, still remained in many populations. Noble rulers of worlds claimed they have the patrimony of the ancient tests which put them into "Aleph" status, thus cementing their rule in a cast-down world, where the ghost of science has become religion, and "Aleph" the new Divine Right.
You could easily explain the primitive nature of the 3I's genetic sciences as a result of that. Ancient and proud family lines, claiming to have a high percentage of Aleph ancestors through careful marriage use ancient Terran science to cement their rule. Sylea was not immune and regardless of Cleon himself was one of these people doesn't matter - his wife certainly would have been in order to give the new dynasty more legitimacy in a fragile time. As the 3I expanded, it continually encountered new worlds also using the Aleph Myth and the 3I integrated these worlds, it left these rulers as satraps and thus the Aleph Myth is one of the underpinnings of the legitimacy of the 3I and the 3I strongly discourages scientists from work into human genetics, for they know if scientists do, they'll find the supposedly noble traits tarnished by bastardry, inbreeding, and lack of inheritance.
The Solomani, perhaps don't have this stigma and may still test for Alephs and all the other ancient Terran categories...
^Very interesting concept. I like the idea of SolSec holding DNA records on the Party leadership, useful for keeping themselves in the seat of power.
Imagine a ship's crew landing at a Solomani port and while clearing Customs they have a swab taken. When SolSec gets the results they realize one of the crew (perhaps the one with the highest SOC) is a blood relative of an ailing Party secretary, albeit a very distant relative but kin none the less. Come to find out, the Party secretary needs an organ transplant, and the crewman is a close enough match.
Imagine a ship's crew landing at a Solomani port and while clearing Customs they have a swab taken. When SolSec gets the results they realize one of the crew (perhaps the one with the highest SOC) is a blood relative of an ailing Party secretary, albeit a very distant relative but kin none the less. Come to find out, the Party secretary needs an organ transplant, and the crewman is a close enough match.
Nobles use the nuture argument too, claiming that someone trained from childhood to perform a job is likely to be good at it.
I don't see why the Imperium being governed by a hereditary nobility is so implausible. There's a deep-seated desire in all humans to provide for their offspring. Getting them a free pass into the upper class is an excellent way to do that, and all the reason anyone really needs to do so. Any explanations will be rationalization not reason, but what's so implausible about that?
The Imperium started out with the nobility of the Sylean Federation already in place. So the nobles claimed that democracy doesn't work across interstellar distances. So what if it's not true? Repeat it often enough and it becomes a case of "everybody knows".
"Have you perhaps ever seen an interstellar democracy that worked? (The Zhodani Consulate doesn't count, of course, because... well, they're Zhodani, so there must be something wrong. The Consulate probably only limbs along because the mind-rippers psionically lobotomizes everyone with the initiative to object. We don't want that in the Imperium, thank you very much). Besides, there are plenty of examples of democracies voting incompetents and madmen into office. No, a well-trained hereditary nobility with an Emperor to remove the occasional incompetent is OBVIOUSLY superior to any other form of interstellar government. It's not perfect, but it's the best option available. Everybody knows that."
Hans
I don't see why the Imperium being governed by a hereditary nobility is so implausible. There's a deep-seated desire in all humans to provide for their offspring. Getting them a free pass into the upper class is an excellent way to do that, and all the reason anyone really needs to do so. Any explanations will be rationalization not reason, but what's so implausible about that?
The Imperium started out with the nobility of the Sylean Federation already in place. So the nobles claimed that democracy doesn't work across interstellar distances. So what if it's not true? Repeat it often enough and it becomes a case of "everybody knows".
"Have you perhaps ever seen an interstellar democracy that worked? (The Zhodani Consulate doesn't count, of course, because... well, they're Zhodani, so there must be something wrong. The Consulate probably only limbs along because the mind-rippers psionically lobotomizes everyone with the initiative to object. We don't want that in the Imperium, thank you very much). Besides, there are plenty of examples of democracies voting incompetents and madmen into office. No, a well-trained hereditary nobility with an Emperor to remove the occasional incompetent is OBVIOUSLY superior to any other form of interstellar government. It's not perfect, but it's the best option available. Everybody knows that."
Hans
R
Rev Round
Guest
Thanks Hans :rofl:
But the superiority inferiority thing sounds very "new rich" empire arrogance and not the hereditary cultivated. As for democracy I will come back to that later. Lengthy comparison in the wings...
But the superiority inferiority thing sounds very "new rich" empire arrogance and not the hereditary cultivated. As for democracy I will come back to that later. Lengthy comparison in the wings...
Last edited:
R
Rev Round
Guest
OOh woo sinister! Yes and mix into that Hydra dna (More than one dna type naturally in the same body) and epigenetic memory (proven ancestral memory. Recorded in the dna!)
The crewman just might trust his/her intuition that the friendly invite has a sinister atmosphere of impending doom due to an incident in the past during the life of an ancestor who suffered a life threatening trauma under similar circumstances.
The organ stolen may just be the wrong dna match! Even though the sample was correct. :frankie:
Similar threads
