Duke on board - Need Advice

[epicenter00]

Nobles use the nuture argument too, claiming that someone trained from childhood to perform a job is likely to be good at it.

You are correct.

However, that argument really only started once large portions of a population stopped buying into the Divine Right myth. I would envision that the RoM genetic testing actually showed predisposition; one that would have to be carefully nurtured and monitored and coupled with training to create a leader. Even then, many such genetic candidates would be unsuitable because of prediction towards anti-social behavior or earlier socialization may have made the candidate unsuitable for leadership. Such "leadership science" perhaps would have been accepted during the RoM with a certain jaundiced eye by Terran populations of the time who looked at it in the same way that most of us chuckle what we do during "management training" or similar week-long courses.

It would only be after the Long Night which saw history and myth rewritten by those in power that the tests would have gained a mythical power approaching that of destiny or divine right and all the stuff about training and so on would be secondary to having the right genes ("blood").

 

[Rev Round]

I must add that when I describe cultivation I do mean education and not necessarily "breeding".

 

[aramis]

Hans, Rev Round:

Take it to PM or Visitor Messages, please, but let's not clutter the thread with the off topic personal issue.

 

[rancke]

Hans, Rev Round:

Take it to PM or Visitor Messages, please, but let's not clutter the thread with the off topic personal issue.

Excuse me? Which off topic personal issue are you referring to?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Excuse me? Which off topic personal issue are you referring to?


Hans

the kind of dialog in posts 51 to 55 of this thread... Others were complaining about it.

 

[hunter]

Excuse me? Which off topic personal issue are you referring to?


Hans

The sniping a little earlier. Aramis posted a quick note to head things off before they possibly escalated. Nothing obnoxious, and he was right. Lets move on. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.

 

[Rev Round]

The sniping a little earlier. Aramis posted a quick note to head things off before they possibly escalated. Nothing obnoxious, and he was right. Lets move on. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.

False alarm. No sniping. All is well don't worry. We both know that we are talking about the same thing. We both truncated a quote for quote sequence that becomes wearisome for others as well as both of us. Hans made me laugh anyway.

 

[Poppyseed45]

Just wanted to pipe in and say I am enjoying the discussion so far. Interesting takes on all things noble.

I also noticed that (by generation rules in most Traveller versions) you could only be born at Soc 12. From there, any title would have to be some sort of award or appointment made by relavent authorities (which actually makes the thing about Ducal families silly, since none of them can inherit his title). Barons, Marquises and Dukes can only be those who rose through the ranks through meritorious service.

IMTU, I was thinking of doing this the heavily modified British Empire way, that is, a noble title can be either hereditary (all titles up to Soc 12, possibly having some tiny blob of land somewhere that, as mentioned upthread, barely pays its own upkeep), and the rest would be on appointment under the Emperor's right to create peerage for the holding of office, or other ceremonial services as required.

So, a Soc 15 Duke might either be someone in the Noble career as an Ambassador or Administrator who has served the Emperor well, or has an important job (I imagine Ministers of subsectors and the like would hold high title); someone who performs great military service or commands a large amount of assests (I note that Army, Merchants, Marines, Navy, and Scholars can gain Soc either through the skill/development tables or when Mustering out). Or maybe just because, as a "thank you for all your awesomeness." How many "sirs and ladies do we have floating around Britian nowadays?" Sir Mick Jagger indeed!

My short answer to all the long-windedness above - the Imperium seems to provide for reward nobles of various functions, usually as a "thank you" for service, or when someone needs it for the job.

 

[Dagrill]

Hi,

I played in a CT campaign a long time ago, where my character was heir to Tanoose (Garda-Vilis in OTU) and ended up spending the fifth frontier war fighting the imperials, sword worlders and zhodani to regain my inheritance. I enjoyed it, hope your players enjoy similar.

Regards

David

 

[vegascat]

I had better luck using a redefined SOC scale with Duke at 20 and Emperor at 21.
A SOC of 15 would be a Subsector Duke, with a Fief of 1D6 planets
The prefix of Grand is inherited or Emperor awarded only. Other titles can be gained by service
21 - Emperor, the big guy on the Iridium throne
20 - Archduke, Controls several sectors
19 - Grand Duke, In charge of a full sector,
18 - Grand Count, Working noble, In charge of a partial sector
17 - Grand Marquis, Working noble
16 - Grand Baron, Controls a sector
15 - Duke, Fief of 2D6 Planets
14 - Count, Fief of 1D6 planets
13 - Marquis, Fief of a single planet
12 - Baron, Estate on a single planet
11 - Baronet
10 - Knight - No fief

 

[Rev Round]

Hey! Don't mess w' duh King.

22 - Emperor, the big guy on the Iridium throne
21 - Elvis
20 - Archduke, Controls several sectors

 

[Straybow]

OOh woo sinister! Yes and mix into that Hydra dna (More than one dna type naturally in the same body) and epigenetic memory (proven ancestral memory. Recorded in the dna!)

you mean chimera dna?

 

[MCEvans]

Just curious

1. How did the finally work out?
2. SOC level and title don't always have to be the same.
3. If you are going to have them equate it could have been a an assigned position were the PC gets to keep the title and contacts but no real power after the job is done (IMTU). Think about those who have held high office in the US like Pres. Clinton keeps the title, even a Secret Service detail, but no power or authority.

Sorry about the necromancy

 

[aramis]

Actually, according to CT sources, all Soc 15's are dukes, but only a scant few of them are holding offices as landed dukes; the rest are honor list dukes - titular dukes without ducal fiefs, or only small fiefs, but not cluster, subsector, nor sector dukes. Let alone archdukes.

 

[rancke]

Actually, according to CT sources, all Soc 15's are dukes, but only a scant few of them are holding offices as landed dukes; the rest are honor list dukes - titular dukes without ducal fiefs, or only small fiefs, but not cluster, subsector, nor sector dukes. Let alone archdukes.

Is that game rule canon or setting material canon? If it's setting material, I'd love to know just what it says. As far as I'm aware, there practically no CT material about Imperial nobles except for the essay in LDNZ and some scattered mentions of a few specific nobles. I never heard about cluster dukes either.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Is that game rule canon or setting material canon? If it's setting material, I'd love to know just what it says. As far as I'm aware, there practically no CT material about Imperial nobles except for the essay in LDNZ and some scattered mentions of a few specific nobles. I never heard about cluster dukes either.


Hans

cluster dukes aren't canonical, but have been used in many people's games in lieu of subsector dukes for situations where an obvious cluster presents.

Titular nobles are: CT library data. Essay on nobility. Revised and reprinted (trivial changes) in MT IE.
Landed aka high nobles are canon, and CGen can produce them using S4: COTI or MT... but getting the rolls in the noble career...
a titular baron is 10+ to get position, then 12+ to get promoted 3 times of 7 tries prior to mandatory retirement. So 10/36*1/36*1/36*1/36=10/1679616 to make it in 3 terms.
Baron to Duke in 3: 0.000005953741807651273
Baron to duke in 4: 0.000005788360090772071
Baron to duke in 5: 0.000005627572310472847
Still pretty rare.

Getting in is too easy, IMO, but, hey. There's only so much one can do to fit to a 2d6 "curve."

 

[rancke]

Titular nobles are: CT library data. Essay on nobility. Revised and reprinted (trivial changes) in MT IE.
Landed aka high nobles are canon...

But their numbers are among the few we do have very good evidence to base an estimate on. There are six archdukes, one high duke per subsector (less any subsector too poor to be a viable duchy), so about 300 (less the aforesaid non-duchies -- I usually assume 10% of subsectors are non-duchies, but that's just a guess), one count or viscount per 4-6 worlds, one marquis or baron per system, except the nobles seen to double up on those titles (e.g. Norris, Leonard of Aramis). And that evidence is from the nobles essay, so that's actual setting material.

What we don't have are numbers for honor and position nobles.

...and CGen can produce them using S4: COTI or MT... but getting the rolls in the noble career...
a titular baron is 10+ to get position, then 12+ to get promoted 3 times of 7 tries prior to mandatory retirement. So 10/36*1/36*1/36*1/36=10/1679616 to make it in 3 terms.
Baron to Duke in 3: 0.000005953741807651273
Baron to duke in 4: 0.000005788360090772071
Baron to duke in 5: 0.000005627572310472847
Still pretty rare.

True, but not nearly that rare. Survival is 3+, so the chance of getting 7 terms is pretty high. Position is 5+. so pretty likely too. After that, you get seven throws to get at least three sixes. I used to know how to calculate that sort of odds, but I've forgotten most of it. I do know, however, that they're much higher than the odds you quote[*]. They get even better for those with Int 10+, who get a +1 to the promotion throws.

[*] Baron to duke in five tries should have BETTER odds than baron to duke in three tries. Your figures have that reversed.​

And if one out of every 36 people in the Imperium gets a chance to join the Nobles, you're looking at a couple of million dukes even at the worst odds you quote.

Getting in is too easy, IMO, but, hey. There's only so much one can do to fit to a 2d6 "curve."

A very good reason to take evidence drawn from Character Generation with a whole truckload of salt.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

I don't know if this is an important factor, or one that anyone has thought of, but...

Imperial Nobility has nothing to do with planetary governance beyond advising planetary leaders, making sure that 3rd Imperial laws aren't being broken and carrying the words of the planetary leaders of worlds in their fiefs to the 3rd Imperial government. They are part of a government that rules the space between the planets, and that government lets the planetary governments pretty much do what they wish out to 10 planetary diameters from their worlds.

So would an Imperial Duke bow to the whims of the Bureaucratic leadership of a high population world of his fief? Most likely, as its his job to do so, so long as it did not interfere with 3rd Imperial interest. After all, the planet is that guys to rule, not the Dukes. Even if the Duke owns a chunk of land on the world from his feif, he does not rule the planet AND he has to follow the local law just like anyone else when on world. Would he have pull with the worlds government, yes, but probably not as much as you'd like to think. He might be able to mediate trade agreements between planets in his sector, and enforce the few laws of the 3rd Imperium, and in rare instances, he can call in the Imperial Forces to deal with problems that threaten the 3rd Imperium, and possibly get a worlds government to do him small favors (like releasing an Imperial citizen from jail if the guy leaves planet quick) but technically that's about it. He's just another diplomat with a fancy title.

In most ways, the Imperial Duke is just another guy with a high Soc. In a few select instances, hes got power, but most of the time hes a guy trying to keep trade going in his fief, and has received a fancy title for doing so.

Its food for thought anyways.

 

[MCEvans]

In most ways, the Imperial Duke is just another guy with a high Soc. In a few select instances, hes got power, but most of the time hes a guy trying to keep trade going in his fief, and has received a fancy title for doing so.

Remember the Tradewar situation from The Traveller Adventure
Marquis of Aramis
Baron Feri (Oberlindes)
Bulolo - director of Tukera/Akerut in Aramis Subsector (not a noble but has power)

 

[Cryton]

Remember the Tradewar situation from The Traveller Adventure
Marquis of Aramis
Baron Feri (Oberlindes)
Bulolo - director of Tukera/Akerut in Aramis Subsector (not a noble but has power)

Yep. Sometimes the 3rd Imperium is very much a mafia. I didn't meant to imply that imperial nobles, or those with the chutzpah to wage a trade war without targeting civilian populations beyond whats necessary for a trade war, wasn't tolerated or in some cases, encouraged. 3I does have a darkside.