Odd starports

[savage]

formerly airports

An opportunity around every corner. I always enjoyed searching for the remains of lost airports particularly those that we're closed after world war 2. We have one here that became a state park. The polution from the WW-2 activities required alternatives to residential development.

http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/FL/Airfields_FL.htm


In traveller, I can see these being pirate location, empty spots to hide out or meet, and perhaps remnants from Rebellion or 5th Frontier War staging.

 

[rancke]

Couldn't an UWP have been plausible during the Second Survey and then updated into implausibility?

I don't know. Could it? How?


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

I don't know. Could it? How?

Hans,

In the same manner in which Korea built all those worthless international airports as described in the news article that kicked off this thread.

Obviously, an "implausible" UWP of the type we're talking about will only be "implausible" in it's social aspects; port, government, law level, and (perhaps) population. I listed those aspects in the order in which I believe they can be "plausibly implausible", if that phrase even makes sense. Perhaps a better phrase would be "incorrectly reported".

So, we have Arglebargle-IX which, during the Second Survey, was noted as having a Class C starport. Sometime in the near past, Arglebargle-IX upgraded that port to Class B or, more accurately, was reported as upgrading it to Class B.

The Filing Cabinet Commandos of the Department of Redundancy Department duly make their updates to the Pilot's and Bartender's Guide of the Bargleargle Subsector that a Class B port exists and the universe moves on in a greased groove.

Trouble is, the Argelbargle starport really isn't Class B. It can't do what it claims it can do or what it should be able to do. The port's SPA managers, mindful of both their pensions and necks, are spending more time hiding the truth than fixing the problems.

Of course, such a situation can't last forever, but it can last long enough to involve the players. Perhaps their Beowulf limps in for a much needed annual overhaul only to have the work drag on and on while the yard managers make increasingly transparent excuses. Perhaps the IISS or SPA has had reports of the situation but must investigate surreptitiously due to political considerations, so the players are called in to make a casual visit that is really a fact finding mission. Perhaps the players even work for the port and must find a way to cover their bottoms from the inevitable discovery of the port's true nature and the subsequent fallout.

Who knows? There are hundreds of ways to use the situation and the situation need not last very long at all.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

In traveller, I can see these being pirate location, empty spots to hide out or meet, and perhaps remnants from Rebellion or 5th Frontier War staging.

Savage,

Oh, most certainly! Nice find by the way. I wouldn't be surprised if people engaged in a certain South American trade aren't using many of those "lost" airfields as we speak.

IMTU[/i] the Grote/Glisten system has many abandoned and forgotten landing pads, hangars, and hardstands. Well, more accurately, all were abandoned but more than a few were never forgotten.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Obviously, an "implausible" UWP of the type we're talking about will only be "implausible" in it's social aspects; port, government, law level, and (perhaps) population. I listed those aspects in the order in which I believe they can be "plausibly implausible", if that phrase even makes sense. Perhaps a better phrase would be "incorrectly reported".

But, you see, that's just the point. You're mixing up "implausible" and "incorrect". If a UWP hasn't been updated in 30 years, obviously it can be wrong (Come to that, it could be wrong even if it was updated yesterday, but that would be due to a reporting error/deliberate lie; I'm talking about how a world with a UWP that was right 30 years ago easily could have changed under it: Population grown a level, government changed, laws changed, technology improved, atmosphere pollution passed a threshold, canal cut to flood a low-lying basin, no, I can't come up with a way the size could change[*]). But if it was implausible 30 years ago, it will still be implausible today.


[*] Oh, wait: Population of secondary world surpassed the mainworld in those 30 years and the Scouts now consider it the new mainworld

So, we have Arglebargle-IX which, during the Second Survey, was noted as having a Class C starport. Sometime in the near past, Arglebargle-IX upgraded that port to Class B or, more accurately, was reported as upgrading it to Class B.

You mean, 30 years ago the starport class was upgraded based on an erroneous report? Why not use that explanation straight up instead? "Arglebargle-IX starport was erroneously reported as being upgraded two months ago and nobody have fixed the error yet." Much more plausible that the error is a recent occurrence than that it remained undetected for 30 years.

(OK, with the same UWPs being reported for 1105 (TSM), 1111 (SMC), and 1117 (RgS), the "it's a mistake that just hasn't been corrected yet" explanations get a lot weaker.)

The Filing Cabinet Commandos of the Department of Redundancy Department duly make their updates to the Pilot's and Bartender's Guide of the Bargleargle Subsector that a Class B port exists and the universe moves on in a greased groove.

Trouble is, the Argelbargle starport really isn't Class B. It can't do what it claims it can do or what it should be able to do. The port's SPA managers, mindful of both their pensions and necks, are spending more time hiding the truth than fixing the problems.

And it's more plausible that they've been able to hide this for 30 years than that it's only been going on for a year?

Of course, such a situation can't last forever, but it can last long enough to involve the players.

No argument there. I've never said a UWP couldn't be wrong. I said that if a UWP is implausible, claiming that it hasn't been updated recently won't make it plausible.

Actually, that's not quite true. If the implausible condition was caused by war or catastrophe, the question, "How come Entrope's starport hasn't been brought back to Class B in the two decades since 1084?" is, indeed, answered by "It has; the UWP just hasn't been updated since 1084".

Provided, of course, that you think it is plausible that the Scouts wouldn't've updated Entrope's UWP in 19 years. IMO you're much more likely to arrive at a starport and find that it's no longer Class B because the rock termites ate it yesterday[**]


[**] Joke. A Class B starport would have orbital facilities. Hit by a yardworkers' strike, perhaps.


Be that as it may, we were talking about high-tech, decent-population worlds with Class D starports (I was, anyway). As Wil said, there are ways to explain those (the religious dictatorship of Dodds probably has something to do with its starport rating), but I can't think of any explanation that is improved by adding the claim that the UWP hasn't been updated in 30 years.



Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

I see no problems with "everybody knows but the officials still don't get it" errors.

I.e the soccer stadium of the local team is still listed as the "Glückauf Kampfbahn" in the cities "List of sports clubs and arenas". We have stopped using it around 1998 and switched to a new stadium in a totally different location , the former one has been covered with residential buildings in the meantime.

It took a nearby city more than two years to change their official web presence from "home of two coal mines" to reflect the fact that both mines had been shut down. By the time they did the mines where totally demolished leaving only flat space.

Until the late 1980s there was an official office for the "Monopol Tugboat Service" on the next channel junction. The state-operated/owned tugboat service stopped operating in the late 1960s...

 

[Beech]

I see no problems with "everybody knows but the officials still don't get it" errors...

Funnily enough I saw this yesterday...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8057798.stm

 

[mbrinkhues]

Funnily enough I saw this yesterday...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8057798.stm

Bet the boss was ex-military. Like the guy who ordered six "KaJaPa" tankhunters to be painted Nato 3-color because "tanks hauled out of deep storage are repainted in current cammo schemes". Didn't matter that they where hauled out to be scrapped because the "Inactive reserve" units of the Bundeswehr where disbanded.

======================================

A good reason for having "wrong" ratings for a starport is a lot more sinister. Assuming your Imperial Bureaucracy IS bribabel (for Scouts this may be as little as an inflateabel companion ) some forces might see a benefit in having a slightly lower/higher rating. Lower keeps traffic small (Ah, it's only a Class-D port, no trade or maintenance there) producing a resonably safe place. Higher attracts some traffic (Class C, they should have some trade and operate an SDB or three) and might give you chances.

Just don't overdue it. Few care if the occasional Free Trader "suffers fatal misjump" but you don't want the bigger lines to send a trade team (And those Lorimars have some teeth) to check out the "opportunity"

=======================================

And sometimes it's just "Inertia". That Scout-Depot on "Whatchamacallit IIb" once was great and important but today it is little more than a drunken stationmaster and a one-legged orderly. But it's still a Depot instead of say an emergency landing place because it has always been one because it would have been too much paperwork to reduce it in status. So they just reduced staffing and funds, closed down most of the installation and forgot about it. Happens IRL more often than not.

 

[rancke]

I see no problems with "everybody knows but the officials still don't get it" errors.

Neither do I (within reason; I wouldn't expect the Michelin Guide to keep awarding three stars to a restaurant that turned into an auto-shop 30 years ago). You're defending the notion that a rating can be wrong, which was never in dispute[*]. In general I claim that some UWPs are just plain wrong and should be changed; that others are individually defensible but collectively implausible, and that some (not all) should be changed; and that yet others are highly implausible and should be changed if a good explanation can't be found. In this specific thread, I claim that if a UWP is implausible, then it doesn't help to claim that it is 30 years out of date -- it would also have been implausible 30 years ago, so what's gained, explanation-wise?


[*] Mind you, I've suggested that one to Marc Miller and gotten the reply that I was trying to change the UWP to fit with a preconceived notion, so no go -- it wasn't wrong, I just hadn't come up with the right explanation yet -- and neither had he).



Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

Some stuff depends on:

+ How often is a system re-checked?

The Guide etc. works because they recheck every 2-5 years IIRC. If the Scouts only re-check minor systems once every 30-50 years it gets more interesting. If they use a "graded" recheck based on "It should not change for x years according to this model" it
might be even more interesting. They did the "grand surveys" for a reason.

+ Effectiveness/Lawfullness of the Scouts

If there is "one recheck per 30-50 years" and the Scouts are bribabel you can keep changes secret for quite some time

+ Willing to listen to outsiders

How willing is the ISS to listen to non-ISS sources that claim "Planet WayOutaThere" has changed? Again this might depend on wether it's a "Pink Captain" from a Tukera Liner or a grimy FreeTrader

+ How often gets the data updated

IMHO the UPP data is the "official" data published by the ISS. How often do they issue upgrades/new data sets? And how long does it take until the FreeTrader "ISS Shitgangs Pleasure" gets those updates

+ How well does inofficial data spread

It might very well be that Trader "BeenThisSectorSince1000" knows that a planets UPP is wrong. But will he tell?

+ Cover my Rearside

30 years ago JuniorScout "Buffy Summers" switched two UPPs while entering them in the database and when she later realised it, the data was "officially published" so she kept quit. Today SeniorScout "Summers" get's a report from a young scout lining out the truth. Guess what will happen.

 

[atpollard]

Until the late 1980s there was an official office for the "Monopol Tugboat Service" on the next channel junction. The state-operated/owned tugboat service stopped operating in the late 1960s...

The US has a department to oversee Rural Electrification (bringing electricity to farming areas where the cost per mile to run wires is too expensive on a per person basis to be profitable). It was started in the 1930's (I think). Even though it has long since fully completed it's intended function, it still exists. Now it makes low interest loans to major power corporations that bought out the small utilities it was created to deal with.

This is not about modern politics and government.
It is about the basic fact that bureaucracies refuse to die even after they accomplish their goal - and The Imperium would be no different.

Attention from the MOOT or Emperor during a past war identified the need to upgrade the Class E starport on a strategically useful world to Class C (to support patrols/ the Navy/ the ISS/ whatever). The port was easily upgraded in a few years, but rather than disband, the board placed in charge has simply continued to follow its mandate to upgrade the port and has upgraded it to Class B and has plans in place to some day achieve Class A with a full navy depot. The PoP 2 world could not operate the entire facility even if they employed every man, woman and child on the planet. Only about 1% of the starport is actually operational, the rest is carefully sealed in preparation for the possible need to import SPA personnel and activate it's full capacity at a moments notice ... they can even show you the 5 volume reactivation plan that they prepared and the 500 year plan to complete the navy depot.

When you arrive, the starport is in fact Class B (able to build starships) and even has a Modular Cutter under construction. They build about 1 per year under a subsidy from the Sector Treasury "to maintain a skilled workforce for the purpose of facilitating reactivation in the event of an emergency". It can repair a starship, but only at 8 times the normal required repair time.

 

[Whipsnade]

Hans,

I don't understand where all this "thirty years" stuff comes from. Who mentioned thirty years? I'd surprised if the cover-up lasted thirty weeks or months.

How about this for a timeline?

1065: Second Survey published. Argelbargle-IX is noted as having a Class C starport.

1095: Argelbargle-IX Port Upgrade Project announced. Additional hiring and construction lead to small economic boom around the port.

090-1114: Argelbargle-IX starport officially proclaimed Class B. The change in the port's rating had previously been disseminated to the duchy's databases with 090-1114 as the starting date. A SPA official resign in protest but their letter of resignation is never made public.

105-1114: Later inquiry suggest that on this date the first complaint by a ship owner concerning the Arglebargle-IX yards was lodged. The complaint was withdrawn on 114-1114 under obscure circumstances.

Late 1114: Later inquiries reveal that complaints regarding the Argelbargle-IX yards continue to mount. Some are withdrawn, some are not substantiated, and others seem to have been investigated slowly, if at all, by local SPA officials. The inquiry also notes that turnover among SPA personnel at the Arglebargle port is high.

022-1115: Major scandal involving the Argelbargle-IX starport's Class B status breaks during a Board of Inquiry into a recent shipping disaster. A freak jump capacitor discharge aboard the subsidized merchant Dame Una Merkel on 004-1115 had resulted in heavy damage to the ship and several deaths. The vessel had just undergone annual maintenance at the Arglebargle-IX yards and the surviving officers testify under oath at the inquiry regarding irregularities regarding the overhaul. One SPA official scheduled to testify does not appear before the board and cannot be located.

025-1115: Baron Arglebargle creates an investigatory committee to examine the claims surrounding the local shipyards. Several mid-ranking SPA employees file for retirement over the next local week.

030-1115: While not yet finished with their investigation, the Baronial Commission recommends an immediate cessation of maintenance activities at the starport yards. The Baron accepts the recommendations, issues a stop work order, and sends his huscarles to the port to see that the order is carried out. First "protective custody" and "material witness" warrants are issued for SPA officials.

055-1115: When apprised of Baron Arglebargle's orders, Verlen, Countess of Tehn, issues her own orders supporting the Baron's actions. County personnel from the several appropriate ministries are dispatched to Argelbargle-IX to assist in the Baron's investigation.

087-1115: Duke Bargleargle endorses the actions of his subordinates. Duchy ministries enter the picture. One prominent SPA official retires to "spend more time with her family".

Mid-1115: Several prominent suicides occur among high ranking SPA officials on Arglebargle-IX. First legal briefs are filed in the matter, mostly by shipping lines and owners. One brief is submitted a local family of groat milkers who claim news of the Dame Una Merkel disaster caused "psychic" stress to their dairy herd. The brief seeks more tinfoil with which to line the family's distinctive headgear.

117-1115: Arglebargle-IX starport temporarily rated as Class C pending final results of official inquiry. Updates to duchy databases will take weeks, with months required elsewhere. Also issued are warnings that any vessels overhauled or maintained on Arglebargle between this date and 1117-1114 are to stand down for immediate safety inspections. Civil and criminal trials are announced. One prominent SPA official announces his conversion to the Church of Stellar Divinity.

There you have it. Between 090-1114 and 117-1115, Arglebargle-IX had a bad UWP. The Second Survey UWP was first changed improperly and then later changed back. More importantly, the players will act as if Arglebargle's port actually was Class B when it really wasn't Class B. Further adding to the fun are the many other ways the players could be involved in these port rating shenanigans. I've sketched out nearly 400 days of "fun" in this little timeline. Any GM worth his Cheetos should be able to take it and run.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

I don't understand where all this "thirty years" stuff comes from. Who mentioned thirty years? I'd surprised if the cover-up lasted thirty weeks or months.

It comes from the suggestion that one might somehow explain an implausible UWP by assuming that it hasn't been updated since the publication of the Second Survey in 1065. Oh... I should have said 40 years, shouldn't I? 1105-1065 = 40. My mistake.

How about this for a timeline?

1065: Second Survey published. Argelbargle-IX is noted as having a Class C starport.

How is that implausible? Does Argelbargle have too few people to maintain and run a Class C starport? You seem bent on proving that Argelbargle's UWP can be wrong, something I have tried to explain that I don't deny (Marc Miller, now... :devil.

There you have it. Between 090-1114 and 117-1115, Arglebargle-IX had a bad UWP.

Sadly, almost any starport rating we want to dispute (in the Spinward Marches, at least) remains the same from (at least) 1105 to (at least) 1117. Many of them remain the same through everything the Rebellion, Hard Times, and Virus throws at the Domain of Deneb up until 1202.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Attention from the MOOT or Emperor during a past war identified the need to upgrade the Class E starport on a strategically useful world to Class C (to support patrols/ the Navy/ the ISS/ whatever). The port was easily upgraded in a few years, but rather than disband, the board placed in charge has simply continued to follow its mandate to upgrade the port and has upgraded it to Class B and has plans in place to some day achieve Class A with a full navy depot. The PoP 2 world could not operate the entire facility even if they employed every man, woman and child on the planet. Only about 1% of the starport is actually operational, the rest is carefully sealed in preparation for the possible need to import SPA personnel and activate it's full capacity at a moments notice ... they can even show you the 5 volume reactivation plan that they prepared and the 500 year plan to complete the navy depot.

When you arrive, the starport is in fact Class B (able to build starships) and even has a Modular Cutter under construction. They build about 1 per year under a subsidy from the Sector Treasury "to maintain a skilled workforce for the purpose of facilitating reactivation in the event of an emergency". It can repair a starship, but only at 8 times the normal required repair time.

Not a bad idea. I'm not sure it will fly (so to speak), though, at least not without bribing some Scouts. Starports seem to be defined in terms of what services they provide. It's not that they're capable of constructing starships or boats that gives a system a class A or B rating. It's not even that they are, in fact, building ships or boats. The fact that planetary governments are capable of building ships and boats for themselves as long as the world has the requisite tech level, regardless of the starport class, shows this (It's mentioned in HG). It's whether you can go there and get an annual overhaul, major repair, refined fuel, and a ship or boat built in the standard number of months that actually determines the rating.

(So the mothballed shipyard on Binges ([BtC:78]) is not actually, IMO, a Class A starport.)

And if you have to bribe the Scouts anyway, why not do so from the start?



Hans

 

[atpollard]

It's whether you can go there and get an annual overhaul, major repair, refined fuel, and a ship or boat built in the standard number of months that actually determines the rating.

So what class is an otherwise Class A starport that requires 125% of the standard time to effect repairs due to a chronic shortage of shipyard workers?

From page 178 of the MgT core book, the ability to produce Small Craft (Class C), Spacecraft (Class B) and Starships (Class A) is what defines the class of the starport. If my hypothetical world produced one Type S per year, then it would be capable of building starships, capable of repairing starships and would reasonably expect to be classified by the SPA and ISS as Class A Starport - even if it is a small one.

 

[far-trader]

So what class is an otherwise Class A starport that requires 125% of the standard time to effect repairs due to a chronic shortage of shipyard workers?

Class D in Mongoose Traveller I guess. Sucks to be them.

I'm with Hans on this. If the starport/shipyard can't do the job in the standard time it doesn't get the rating. It may very well be a Class A starport in every other respect (like those practically abandoned airports above) but if the staff isn't there it won't be rated as such and the traffic just won't show up. Congrats, you've got a white elephant

If my hypothetical world produced one Type S per year, then it would be capable of building starships, capable of repairing starships and would reasonably expect to be classified by the SPA and ISS as Class A Starport - even if it is a small one.

Depends, is one year the standard time to produce a Type S? It used to be what, 9 months? If so then no, your starport won't qualify for a Class A rating. Not until you can maintain more workers.

 

[rancke]

So what class is an otherwise Class A starport that requires 125% of the standard time to effect repairs due to a chronic shortage of shipyard workers?

That would depend on the Scout Survey commander for the subsector, wouldn't it?

From page 178 of the MgT core book, the ability to produce Small Craft (Class C), Spacecraft (Class B) and Starships (Class A) is what defines the class of the starport. If my hypothetical world produced one Type S per year, then it would be capable of building starships, capable of repairing starships and would reasonably expect to be classified by the SPA and ISS as Class A Starport - even if it is a small one.

Oh, they've changed that too, have they? I don't have the MgT core book. Could you quote their definition? I'm just giving you the one that we've had up until now.

But, you know, that MgT definition... that'd be the generic definition, right? So the one used by the IISS in the OTU could be different, right?


Hans

 

[dean]

So what class is an otherwise Class A starport that requires 125% of the standard time to effect repairs due to a chronic shortage of shipyard workers?

From page 178 of the MgT core book, the ability to produce Small Craft (Class C), Spacecraft (Class B) and Starships (Class A) is what defines the class of the starport. If my hypothetical world produced one Type S per year, then it would be capable of building starships, capable of repairing starships and would reasonably expect to be classified by the SPA and ISS as Class A Starport - even if it is a small one.

They can get the repairs done in a standard time; you just have to wait a year in queue...

 

[atpollard]

Oh, they've changed that too, have they? I don't have the MgT core book. Could you quote their definition? I'm just giving you the one that we've had up until now.

But, you know, that MgT definition... that'd be the generic definition, right? So the one used by the IISS in the OTU could be different, right?


Hans

That's funny.
Actually, they are similar to THESE definitions from CT: The Traveller Book

Type
Description

A
Excellent quality installation. Refined fuel available. Annual maintenance overhaul available. Shipyard capable of constructing starships and non-starships present. Naval base and/or scout base may be present.

B
Good quality installation. Refined fuel available. Annual maintenance overhaul available. Shipyard capable of constructing non-starships present. Naval base and/or scout base may be present.

C
Routine quality installation. Only unrefined fuel available. Reasonable repair facilities present. Scout base may be present.

D
Poor quality installation. Only unrefined fuel available. No repair or shipyard facilities present. Scout base may be present.

E
Frontier Installation. Essentially a marked spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present.

X
No starport. No provision is made for any ship landings.

So where is this mention of construction time determining the Starport class that I seem to have missed?

 

[far-trader]

So where is this mention of construction time determining the Starport class that I seem to have missed?

It's inferred. Class A starport can build starships. Starships are built in a certain time as determined by hulls. It follows if you can't build a starship in that time frame you don't get a Class A rating. Note (iirc) that (somewhere it's mentioned, HG?) any world can build starships and spacecraft for it's own defense up to it's TL regardless of starport class. The starport class is for commercial purposes more than anything.