Aslan

[Jame]

Later edition canon... that story did not exist for most of the CT era.

And a story that I don't particularly like, having heard fairly recently. For Me, the Aslan will have always been the inventors of their own Jump Drive - it would be the only reason that they didn't obliterate each other.

(Sort of what I hope happens to humans - I'm quite convinced, however falsely, that we're gearing up to some form of WW3. But that could be me listening to TV and conservative talk-radio too much.)

 

[robject]

And a story that I don't particularly like, having heard fairly recently. For Me, the Aslan will have always been the inventors of their own Jump Drive - it would be the only reason that they didn't obliterate each other.

(Sort of what I hope happens to humans - I'm quite convinced, however falsely, that we're gearing up to some form of WW3. But that could be me listening to TV and conservative talk-radio too much.)

Self-moderation is required... with the Aslan, the jump drive was needed, but it always boiled down to individuals making decisions with their brains.

 

[rancke]

The Aslan not being a major race is also an issue that, unless PC's do something untoward, isn't going to get out, either.

True for any ATU where the party who went through the adventure were PCs. For the OTU the secret is out. The journalist wrote an article about it. How many believe him is another question. How many gives a toss is still another.


Hans

 

[rancke]

For Me, the Aslan will have always been the inventors of their own Jump Drive - it would be the only reason that they didn't obliterate each other.

That's fine for when we discuss your TU.


Hans

 

[robject]

Not so. The dates fits perfectly well with an early (but still post-Great-Rift-crossing) incursion into the Marches. Probably a jumper expedition that suffered a misjump.

That's perfectly reasonable. I like it.

The radioactive waste dump is a very old site, and is obviously a sign that this world was once inhabited, or at least regularly visited. The chasm gives a clue as to who these people were: Aslan. The Aslan are one of several intelligent races known to the lmperium and to the Sword Worlds. However, their closest settlement (at the present time) is over
forty parsecs away, and their primary areas are more like eighty or ninety parsecs
away. This proof that the Aslan once ranged this far (and they are an old, and well-
established race) could be important to Imperial archeologists, or to Aslan agents.

So there's a possibility that this was more than a stray ship, but was actually a colony.

 

[rancke]

Paul and I decided on a date for the Aslan colony on Mithril, but I don't think we mentioned it explicitly. However, Paul did write:

"Since the chasm is no less than 1,800 years old, it is the earliest known sign of the Aslan in the Marches."

This puts the colony at around -700 or earlier.


Hans

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Isn't it canon that terrans used Aslan because it was turkish for lion?

I'm sure it is mentioned somewhere...

GT:Alien Races 2

 

[Ishmael]

There's always the matter of the coyns...
Aslan appear on them even though they weren't anything remarkable in the time of the Ancients. They appeared in groups of Droyne at a low tech level where other races might not have been known to the Droyne colony at the time.
One of the arguments for Aslan being a major race is that they are on coyns as well as the other 5 major races.
There is a theory ( MT ref's handbook ) that the Droyne did not invent jump-drive on their own but used Ancient technology they had recovered.

so does the idea of 'Major race' make a big deal?
can a race that controls a huge multi-sector polity really be called 'minor'?

 

[rancke]

There's always the matter of the coyns...
Aslan appear on them even though they weren't anything remarkable in the time of the Ancients. They appeared in groups of Droyne at a low tech level where other races might not have been known to the Droyne colony at the time.
One of the arguments for Aslan being a major race is that they are on coyns as well as the other 5 major races.

They're on the coyns because at the time Grandfather last revised the coyns (around -1000), the Aslans had become a major race. Scholars of Charted Space, who don't know Grandfather as anything but an ubiquitous Droyne legend, mistakenly assume that they must have been on earlier ones too, only no one has found any yet.

There is a theory ( MT ref's handbook ) that the Droyne did not invent jump-drive on their own but used Ancient technology they had recovered.

There's also a theory that one Droyne community invented (or copied) jump drive around -70,000 and spread the coyn ceremony to all the other known Droyne worlds. Again, the lack of knowledge about Grandfather makes that a viable theory.

so does the idea of 'Major race' make a big deal?

To some people, yes, to others, no.

Can a race that controls a huge multi-sector polity really be called 'minor'?

Some people say they can; others say they can't.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

They're on the coyns because at the time Grandfather last revised the coyns (around -1000), the Aslans had become a major race. Scholars of Charted Space, who don't know Grandfather as anything but an ubiquitous Droyne legend, mistakenly assume that they must have been on earlier ones too, only no one has found any yet.

That must be from a source I don't own or no longer have.
The MT ref's comp indicates the coyns were introduced around -75,000 and doesn't mention revisions to coyns and does have a passage that implies that the Aslan were on them then.

oh well....
Major-minor race designation seems to have been written by humans and is a vehicle for discrimination. The question then becomes how much such a designation/discrimination affects diplomacy and trade between Aslan and humans. Especially when the Aslan look upon humans as the barbarians.
* would a cartoon like "Samurai Pizza Cats" be used to re-inforce such racial stereoypes within the Imperium? *

I still think the Sengoku and Edo periods of Japanese history characterize the Aslan better that a generic warriorcats samurai image for how they relate to the Imperium.
It'd certainly give them more depth than the usual "I must have honor!" trope.

 

[rancke]

That must be from a source I don't own or no longer have.

It's from Secrets of the Ancients. The detail that Grandfather's last walkabout was around -1000 is from somewhere else that I can't find again, but the general picture is from SotA.

The MT ref's comp indicates the coyns were introduced around -75,000 and doesn't mention revisions to coyns and does have a passage that implies that the Aslan were on them then.

That material is mostly viewpoint writing, not authorial voice. It's not the truth, it's what Imperial archaeologists believe is the truth.

Incidentally, some of the dates in MT material are wrong. The Ancients Era ran from around -310,000 to around -290,000. Any dates that indicate Ancient activity proir to that are erroneous.

I still think the Sengoku and Edo periods of Japanese history characterize the Aslan better that a generic warriorcats samurai image for how they relate to the Imperium.
It'd certainly give them more depth than the usual "I must have honor!" trope.

I prefer to think of it as the "I must have land! How can I get some without giving someone else an excuse to take it from me?" trope.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

Yes, it's canon that by the commonly accepted definition, the Aslan are not a major race. Which just goes to show that the commonly accepted definition is silly, not that the Aslan are not a major race. They're major all right.

Hans, don't forget that the definition of "Major Race" is not how much territory comprises their empire but "a race that discovered Jump Drive on it's own without outside influence".

DGP always claimed it was an easter egg of sorts dating from the very beginning. They pointed to both the oddities in Aslan history in AM:1 Aslan and a map in AM:6 Solomani showing Terran settlements outside the Confederation circa -2204.

Sounds like a retcon to me, but no one from GDW ever called them on it.

Actually, Bill, I have, in my possession, and interview with MWM where Marc confirms that the Aslan are not a Major Race and did not discover jump drive on their own.

It's right there in B&W print.

Remember, the Traveller universe used to be a living universe. People who subscribed to the JTAS got news stories about the Fifth Fontier War as it happened. I got the impression that this Aslan revelation was the next major "twist" in the living universe that just never got the play that the FFW did as GDW backed away from doing Traveller, higher contractors (DGP) to do the game.

But, I do have MWM's words specifically stating that the Aslan are, indeed, not a Major Race and did not discover the jump drive on their own.





Again...it's really going to surprise me if MGT gets this "right". I bet it will be skipped entirely.

 

[Ishmael]

That material is mostly viewpoint writing, not authorial voice. It's not the truth, it's what Imperial archaeologists believe is the truth.

In that case, I'd have to argue that its the prevailing view within the Imperium as opposed to secret knowledge that only the pc's who experienced SotA would know. As the view of those who set the "major" races, the coyns enigma reinforces the idea that Aslan are a major race to the group that applies that label..

As far as the detail that Grandfather's last walkabout was -1000 means little unless it also stated that Aslan were not on the coyns until afterwards. It's a bit difficult to think that no earlier coyns were ever found given that archaeologists 'know' they appeared around -75000. How did they figure that out if they never found older coyns? Droyne history as told by the Droyne?
If it is stated thus and if a handful of people know the truth, it would probably be suppressed if it might have a perceived negative impact on relations or trade.

other ideas
===========
Why would the ancients meddle with 3 of the major races ( humans, droyne, and vargr ) and leave the others ( aslan, hivers, and k'kree ) alone?

Reducing any alien race to one or two stereotypical tropes is a mistake

 

[Whipsnade]

Actually, Bill, I have, in my possession, and interview with MWM where Marc confirms that the Aslan are not a Major Race and did not discover jump drive on their own.

S4,

I'm not questioning that. I agree completely that the Pathfinder story is canon. What's more I very much like it because it's another of those "wheels within wheels" twists that makes the OTU so interesting.

What I'm questioning is DGP's assertion that GDW had the "Not Really A Major Race" story in mind when they first created the Aslan way back in 1979/80. I think it was a later addition, a very good addition, but a later one.

If I had to bet, I'd say the idea was not in play when the Library Data supplement or AM:1 Aslan were published. I do think it was in play by the time AM:3 Solomani was published because of the settlement map I mentioned. That puts the idea coming about sometime between 1984 and 1986 and not at the very beginning as DGP claimed.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

As far as the detail that Grandfather's last walkabout was -1000 means little unless it also stated that Aslan were not on the coyns until afterwards. It's a bit difficult to think that no earlier coyns were ever found given that archaeologists 'know' they appeared around -75000. How did they figure that out if they never found older coyns?

Ishmael,

How do they know the age of coyns? How do you think archaeologists know the age of anything?

You also need to remember that coyn sets aren't found laying around. They're vitally important to Dryone culture, truly important when we realize what happens to Droyne that can't or don't caste. Discarded coyn sets aren't to be found in Droyne midden heaps and the owners of sets that aren't in Droyne hands really don't want their provenance looked into.

Droyne history as told by the Droyne?

Essentially yes, and that's a big part of the problem.

If it is stated thus and if a handful of people know the truth, it would probably be suppressed if it might have a perceived negative impact on relations or trade.

Most likely, but it's more of a public relations issue. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the upper echelons of Imperial society and government most definitely know about the Pathfinder and know that the Major/Minor labels are nonsense on their face, they just don't want any public upheavals over those facts.

Why would the ancients meddle with 3 of the major races ( humans, droyne, and vargr ) and leave the others ( aslan, hivers, and k'kree ) alone?

Timing. Humans, Droyne, and Vargr were around when the Ancients were active. Humans and Vargr were Ancient experimental subjects and client races while the Droyne were the Ancients. The other races you list were had not developed even rudimentary civilizations yet and, in the case of the Hivers and K'Kree, were relatively distant from Ancient's stomping grounds.

Reducing any alien race to one or two stereotypical tropes is a mistake

Agreed. I'll state that the reduction of the Aslan to a trope has been done more at the hands of the Hobby and less by GDW and other publishers. Too many GMs simply spin the Aslan as "Samurai Pizza Cats".


Regards,
Bill

 

[mike wightman]

Grandfather certainly considers the Aslan to be a major race.

Don't forget that the whole major/minor race definintion is one unique to the 3I - and thus is tied very much to the OTU setting (and we all know how unbiased the 3I is right?).

The Aslan are a major race because they have a multi sector 'empire' and the military and economic might to be a major player. Human racism doesn't really define a major race.

 

[DeusX]

Agreed. I'll state that the reduction of the Aslan to a trope has been done more at the hands of the Hobby and less by GDW and other publishers. Too many GMs simply spin the Aslan as "Samurai Pizza Cats".

Samurai Cats I get, but can someone explain to a noob why "Pizza"?

IMTU I generally present Ihatei(sp?) rogue groups as about as scary as the 'Predator' hunting parties in the Pred/AVP series. That rapidly gets people out of any cute furry mindset.

DX

 

[far-trader]

Samurai Cats I get, but can someone explain to a noob why "Pizza"?

It's a reference to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai_Pizza_Cats

and for a taste...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXiJYcK4-GU

(and for the explanation, which I was thinking maybe was what you really needed and I should add, see the post below, Bill beat me to it )

 

[Whipsnade]

Samurai Cats I get, but can someone explain to a noob why "Pizza"?

DeusX,

Samurai Pizza Cats was an early 90s Japanese childrens' cartoon that was also shown in the US.

The title was quickly borrowed as a pejorative to describe the ham-fisted and unimaginative handling of the Aslan by some GMs. I remember reading the phrase on the old TML by the mid-90s.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Jame]

That's fine for when we discuss your TU.


Hans

And for my own understanding of the OTU. :devil: