Moving past the 3rd Imperium

[Gray Lensman]

Or...

Took me a few days to figure out where I got this pdf from :nonono:.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=13197

Take the lazy man's way out :rofl:.

(The road ahead is clear again, let's try to keep it that way, carry on then, nicely.)
__________________
Dan "far-trader" Burns

Thanks Dan.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Bill;

I took the wave to be a graphic abstract of how one or many intelligent computer viruses were spreading. Kind of like a wave of settlers seeding a new land or something, but your abstract seems to be veering into almost a literal illustration, particularly when you talk about the wave being bent out of shape. When you say said virus wave is being deformed, you mean that in a case by case basis the viruses will encounter resistance and such, and so a chart of its progress will be deformed. You don't mean a "real wave", as if the virus were spread over, say, a merchant fleet, and psionically linked with other fleets carrying the same strand, do you?

FYI, either way it's brilliant

 

[Whipsnade]

I took the wave to be a graphic abstract of how one or many intelligent computer viruses were spreading.

Blue,

Ooops... poor prose on my part, old friend...

The "wave" I've bee nattering on about is the Empress Wave, that mysterious premonition of "looming doom" radiating outward from the galactic core. It's the central mystery of TNE.

Long distance detection of the Wave's supposed effects is what brought Strephon to Longbow II and away from Dulinor's handgun so that psion Jon Crocker could imprint some of the previously received signals in the Emperor's mind. The Wave is presumed to be responsible for the loss of contact between the Imperium and it's smaller Longbow-style projects coreward of the Vargr Extents. The Wave is presumed to be responsible for unraveling of Zhodani society and the subsequent exodus of Zho refugees into the Regency. The Wave is the phenomena Strephon's son, the specially geneered Avery, leaves the Regency in the company of psions and "tame" Virus in order to study. The Wave is also supposed to cross the old Imperium's coreward border sometime around 1200.

The Empress Wave is something that needs to be either explained or described in any setting that wants to be placed in the OTU after 1200.

A word about psionics and Virus...

I'm hesitant to explain Virus solely through psionics because I don't want to use one form of "magic" to explain another form of "magic". I think we can explain Virus well enough via the old Traveller trope of twisted perceptions; i.e. the Alsan major/minor race question, the nature of Zho society, etc.

By twisting perceptions, the more outre aspects of Virus' recorded behavior become just that, outre aspects which have become more and more embellished with each telling. It's not that Virus does those things, it's that people believe Virus does those things.

That being said, I've no qualms about some Virus having some psionic abilities. Thanks to RSB, we know the Imperium created new psionic abilities and/or recreated old psionic abilities via purely mechanical methods. As Virus swept across the Imperium it would have also swept up all that research and all that equipment.

Thus some Virus would have some psionic abilities, but all Virus would not be psionic.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Tellon]

agreed -- the empress wave was not well explained -- even regarding the core voyages by the zhodani -- the settlers farther in would have had time to use thier version of the X-boat system and warn sectors ahead of time --

so exactly what it is -- or "was" -- really needs to be detailed so that any zhodani, say in the Marches or in Old Zhodani territory needs a better explaination of just what happened to the old "empire"

 

[Whipsnade]

agreed -- the empress wave was not well explained -- even regarding the core voyages by the zhodani -- the settlers farther in would have had time to use thier version of the X-boat system and warn sectors ahead of time --

Tellon,

As I wrote earlier, the fact that the Consulate received no warning from it's many bases, colonies, fleets, and other assets along the Core Route is rather odd. Among other things that means that M:1248's description of the Empress Wave is fatally flawed because it fails to explain the canonical lack of such a warning.

so exactly what it is -- or "was" -- really needs to be detailed so that any zhodani, say in the Marches or in Old Zhodani territory needs a better explaination of just what happened to the old "empire"

I don't think any detailed explanation is required beyond a description of the Wave's effects. In this manner the Wave can treated as a "black box" of sorts, we can concentrate on what the Wave does without getting bogged down in the question of what the Wave is.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Blue Ghost]

Blue,

Ooops... poor prose on my part, old friend...

The "wave" I've bee nattering on about is the Empress Wave, that mysterious premonition of "looming doom" radiating outward from the galactic core. It's the central mystery of TNE.

Long distance detection of the Wave's supposed effects is what brought Strephon to Longbow II and away from Dulinor's handgun so that psion Jon Crocker could imprint some of the previously received signals in the Emperor's mind. The Wave is presumed to be responsible for the loss of contact between the Imperium and it's smaller Longbow-style projects coreward of the Vargr Extents. The Wave is presumed to be responsible for unraveling of Zhodani society and the subsequent exodus of Zho refugees into the Regency. The Wave is the phenomena Strephon's son, the specially geneered Avery, leaves the Regency in the company of psions and "tame" Virus in order to study. The Wave is also supposed to cross the old Imperium's coreward border sometime around 1200.

The Empress Wave is something that needs to be either explained or described in any setting that wants to be placed in the OTU after 1200.

A word about psionics and Virus...

I'm hesitant to explain Virus solely through psionics because I don't want to use one form of "magic" to explain another form of "magic". I think we can explain Virus well enough via the old Traveller trope of twisted perceptions; i.e. the Alsan major/minor race question, the nature of Zho society, etc.

By twisting perceptions, the more outre aspects of Virus' recorded behavior become just that, outre aspects which have become more and more embellished with each telling. It's not that Virus does those things, it's that people believe Virus does those things.

That being said, I've no qualms about some Virus having some psionic abilities. Thanks to RSB, we know the Imperium created new psionic abilities and/or recreated old psionic abilities via purely mechanical methods. As Virus swept across the Imperium it would have also swept up all that research and all that equipment.

Thus some Virus would have some psionic abilities, but all Virus would not be psionic.


Regards,
Bill

Ahhh.... yes. Of course ...

I still don't get it. But I think I'm good with it. Seriously, I think what you're describing is a propagation of a species, but one that's small enough, like a virus, to have observable generations with each new "iteration", but also one that's intelligent and quite mad. I think I get it now.

To me, based on what I've read on this thread, Virus would appear to be sociopathic. That is to say like a fully functional human being with an intellect, it's severed from any higher emotion beyond a survival instinct. From brain scans, and neurological study in general, a human sociopath has an intellectual understanding of what is right or wrong, but has no hard wiring for empathy, a basic mammalian trait. Hence the individual is in fact wired like a reptile, but has the reasoning power of a highly educated sophont. It's a deadly mix.

Based on what little I've read on that kind of species, to me at least, it would seem that such an organism, particularly in the computer world, would not be able to survive, as it would need the "meat sacks" to make more circuits for it to invade. Hence it's survival strategy of killing friend and foe alike is like a biological virus that kills its host.

This being said, it would seem likely that, like mammals outwitting non-mammal types, that some positive evolutions ("benign" or "beneficial" viruses) would be left over. Hostile ones, I think (or hostile incarnations of the Empress wave) would burn out or hole up in survival mode... hiding in a bastion of umpteen hard drives on some forgotten research station or something.

Yeah, okay. I think I got a clearer picture of what you're trying to describe. It does leave one to ponder what a post 4I Traveller future would be like.

 

[captainjack]

Seriously, I think what you're describing is a propagation of a species, but one that's small enough, like a virus, to have observable generations with each new "iteration", but also one that's intelligent and quite mad.

Or, the side effect of species reaching a singularity and ascending. Nowhere is it stated that the rapture need be good for one's neighhbors, after all........not that the transended race cares, or is able to care.

Further, should we make the assumption made that becoming beings of pure thought/light/energy/psionae a good thing ? (re: childhoods end)

 

[Tellon]

Tellon,

As I wrote earlier, the fact that the Consulate received no warning from it's many bases, colonies, fleets, and other assets along the Core Route is rather odd. Among other things that means that M:1248's description of the Empress Wave is fatally flawed because it fails to explain the canonical lack of such a warning.



I don't think any detailed explanation is required beyond a description of the Wave's effects. In this manner the Wave can treated as a "black box" of sorts, we can concentrate on what the Wave does without getting bogged down in the question of what the Wave is.

hmm, wow -- ok, thx ..

so it was just like the Virus -- a giant wrecking ball of a civilization -- to "wipe the slate clean" so to speak then .. hmmm

 

[aramis]

hmm, wow -- ok, thx ..

so it was just like the Virus -- a giant wrecking ball of a civilization -- to "wipe the slate clean" so to speak then .. hmmm

Quite possibly to wipe Virus and/or the Zhodani off the map.

 

[Whipsnade]

hmm, wow -- ok, thx ..

Tellon,

I'm sorry if my comments came across as harsh. It's just that I've seen over a decade's worth of discussions about the Empress Wave spiral into irrelevance because of precisely the well intentioned questions and suppositions you posted. Discussions about what the Wave is are ultimately fruitless and those discussions always spoil discussions about what the Wave does.

We accept quite a bit of "black box" descriptions in the setting. There are no jump drive blueprints, no gravitic generator manuals, no explanation on a "nuts & bolts" level of major portions of the Traveller background. The Empress Wave can be handled in the same manner if we avoid fruitless musings about the Wave's actual nature.

Why are discussions regarding the Wave's actual nature fruitless? Because GDW themselves hadn't nailed down the Wave's nature before the company retired and TNE ended.

You can find a old thread here titled 10 Questions You'd Ask Dave Nilsen or some such. In it, Dave Nilsen, the TNE Line Editor and man behind much of TNE itself, was kind enough to answer much more than 10 questions. In his answers concerning the Wave, Mr. Nilsen wrote about a few of the Wave's suggested effects and nothing about the Wave's nature. When specifically asked about the Wave, Mr. Nilsen answered that, aside from sketchy ideas about the jump space/psionic linkage, very little about the wave had ever been settled on.

You should now understand why I do not want yet another fruitless discussion regarding the Wave's nature to torpedo this thread. If GDW didn't know the Wave's actual nature then just how the hell are you and I supposed to ferret out the same?

so it was just like the Virus -- a giant wrecking ball of a civilization -- to "wipe the slate clean" so to speak then .. hmmm

Virus cleaned up the Rebellion. As I've explained above, just what role the Wave would play hadn't yet been fully determined GDW when they retired. We do know that, as of 1200, the Wave effected the Consulate badly enough as to leave the Regency as the only large, somewhat cohesive, interstellar polity in Charted Space.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Tellon]

Quite possibly to wipe Virus and/or the Zhodani off the map.

lol, probably why I played Droyne so long ago .. thx Aramis..

 

[Tellon]

Tellon,

I'm sorry if my comments came across as harsh.

Dude, that aint nothin' -- don't sweat it ...

It's most likely why I love doing STL pocket empires and a more "hard-sci" feel -- since it has less "handwavium" --

One thing I would have 'considered' as a cause or influence on/by the Empress Wave could have been either Grandfather himself or the Ancients technology -- cause they are tucked away in thier little pocket universe -- but they can of course easily come out to say "Hi there!" .. (since the power of the wave just seems too much to be considered anything 'natural' .. as any high tech waaay above our heads would of course be "magical" to us).

But like you implied -- the questions he answered still left some questions very unanswered -- . But hey, like what was said above -- let's not turn this place into a flame war ...

 

[Whipsnade]

It's most likely why I love doing STL pocket empires and a more "hard-sci" feel -- since it has less "handwavium" --

Tellon,

I would be remiss if I didn't to point out that, thanks to a centuries long "No Jump" period, your STL pocket empires would "fit" in the M:1500 setting.

But hey, like what was said above -- let's not turn this place into a flame war ...

Not really a flame war, more like a waste of time instead.

The fact that it's creators never decided on what it was means that discussing the "Wave Is" as opposed to the "Wave Does" is a colossal waste of time.


Regards,
Bill

 

[jackleg]

Truthfully I would like to see some movement in the OTU, if you are going to keep it. A good series of adventures to reflect a political change might be good.

Say Norris's daughter/true birth/clone falls in love with Lucan and they get married. The emperor and the heir(Lucan's brother) both are taken out of the picture(accident/natural disaster, etc). So Lucan is the emperor, but now he has someone to curb his impulses. Other arch-dukes make the move to seperate from the 3rd Imperium, the Aslan invade, the Emporess wave hits, the price of Varg whiskey is up 300%. Now you still have the 3I, but stuff is happening. Will the pc's be part of the solution, the problem or just try to get theirs?

 

[Murph]

I use one of the finest aids to OTU designed, the Wounded Colossus thread by the estimable Mr. Whipsnade. It just makes sense, it works well, and it closes the holes by GDW et al losing their focus and wanting to make Traveller another Aftermath or T-2000 in space. There are problems in the OTU, what to do about the Vargr? The Ihatei? And the Solomani? Imperial expeditions to the Core as well as those of the Zhodani, delete the completely stupid Empress Wave nonsense, as well as the never sufficiently d@mned Virus. Bitter? Yep, to see one of the finest role playing games ever go down the toilet due to the loss of focus at GDW.

Look at the excellent Keith brother adventures, some of the better early GDW works, there was so much untapped potential out there. And so Wounded Colossus is the answer, the complete answer to getting OTU back on track, and making it fun again without the Deus Ex Machina's that GDW foisted upon us.

Jackleg,

Well, the OTU has "moved beyond" the Third Imperium as you put it and, as you also point out, the results produced by GDW were viewed by many as less than satisfactory. Other attempts by other publishers haven't done much better sadly.

If we're sticking to OTU, the road ahead isn't too bright. We've the Rebellion, Hard Times, release of Virus, and all that awaiting us. Attempts to push the time line ahead through all that face quite a challenge, perhaps an insurmountable one.

M:1248 tried and, despite being well written, sadly failed largely due to the fact that it had to tidy up after TNE and the Viral Era. GDW painted the game into quite a corner with TNE it seems and working within those constraints that version imposed on the setting is extremely difficult.

ATU time lines for the game haven't been much better either.

SJGame's alternate timeline for GT has reached 1126 and, quite frankly, it is boring as sh*t. While SJGames TNS tosses out the odd escaped noble convict, odd archeology site, missing reporter, and other reports, the majority of the stories are little more than a gossip column featuring the Imperial family and various other nobles.

While it's nice to read about Strephon attending an opera or eating the first meal in a new restaurant, those aren't exactly thrilling events. I don't know what constraints LKW and/or SJGames are under while writing those TNS snippets. They very well may be boring because they're not actually allowed to be much of anything else.

Like you, I'd love to see the OTU time line progress even though that time line contains Virus and all the trouble it creates. I think we could lessen the many problems created by Virus, and the Empress Wave for that matter, if we yank the time line to a point sufficiently far into the future.

Five hundred years is a nice round number, so how does M:1700 sound?


Regards,
Bill

 

[shadowcat20]

I never got past the 3rd imp. I went on to other games before Mega or further incarnations. I liked what we had to work with. Recently I got a copy of T20 off of E-bay and have been trying to work it's character system in with Classic Traveller ships and planets. The hardest part is trying to mix in Striker combat stats for vehicle or ship combat. It seems this system is DOA though. I can not find much T20 stuff around.

My newest thought is that the wholes sector thing is too 2D. There should be sectors up and down rather than just next to each other on the maps. Space is not flat. This gives you quite a bit of extra space to fill out and explore. It also gives you nooks and crannies that the game wreckers virus and ect did not get to. Maybe the stars are layered with J4 or J5 paths between each layer. Not everyone can make the jump but if you do it is a whole different layer of sectors to explore. New races, and even empires.

Just my 2 credits,

 

[Tellon]

My newest thought is that the wholes sector thing is too 2D. There should be sectors up and down rather than just next to each other on the maps. Space is not flat. ,

You can download 3D subsector maps ...

The one I use is like 5 layers deep and great for a small 3D pocket empire --

 

[E.D.Quibell]

As I wrote earlier, the fact that the Consulate received no warning from it's many bases, colonies, fleets, and other assets along the Core Route is rather odd.

They would have some warning. Along the lines of "All our ship jumping corewrd don't come back." Also they have the devise for looking along their core-routes, although I can't remember it's effects.

We have Zho ships and fleets fighting each other in canon. We we can summise that there is at least some warning comming up the core routes.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Whipsnade]

They would have some warning. Along the lines of "All our ship jumping corewrd don't come back."

Ewan,

Not exactly. While "All Our Ships Jumping Past X Go Missing" is a form of warning, the nature of the Core Route means that jump drive problems starting to occur before the Wave actually arrives helps prevent or minimize any real warnings from being passed along.

We need to remember just how "deep" the Core Expeditions travel and just how "thin" Zho colonization and infrastructure is along the Route. The Route isn't settled in any real sense and there is no Zho version of the x-boat system routinely shuttling information back and forth along it's length. The Route is a sparse network of small colonies, resource extraction settlements, and research outposts linked by ships that may call on perhaps yearly schedules.

Those schedules mean that the disappearance of an inbound vessel arriving from a "deeper" settlement would not be suspected for months or years and the loss of an outbound vessel heading towards a "deeper" region won't be suspected for even longer.

The temporal and physical dimensions of the Core Route and Expeditions are rather hard to grasp. Temporally, the first expedition was launched four thousand years before the Imperium was founded or about 1700 AD our time. Physically, the last expedition, the Seventh, departed in 750 and took over fifty years to reach it's target "depth", engage in the planned surveying and research, and then return.

The permanent settlements along the Core Route are too scattered, too small, and linked too infrequently for a warning about a Wave that shuts down jump travel to reach the Consulate.

That is where M:1248's explanation of the Wave failed: It did not shut down jump travel.

Also they have the devise for looking along their core-routes, although I can't remember it's effects.

Yes, the Ancient "map projector". It's a device which produces a real time 3D starmap of a 30 by 8,000+ parsec route towards the core. It also produces precognition visions in a tiny minority of users and thus is the Consulate's ultimate Kill Before Reading secret.

The device forecasts some events along the Route and elsewhere, but not all events and you can't choose what/when is shown either. The user doesn't "plug in" and get next year's Powerball winners for example.

We have Zho ships and fleets fighting each other in canon. We we can summise that there is at least some warning comming up the core routes.

Sure, some form of warning, but not enough warnings in either size or substance for the Consulate to take precautions. We have reports of Zho infighting during the late Rebellion period. Given that date, the Consulate's position closer to the core than the Imperium, a light-speed Wave, and one that doesn't effect jump travel, most of the Consulate would have been effected centuries before the 4th, or 5th Frontier Wars began.

The idea that the Consulate would launch two wars while unraveling at the same time is rather odd, wouldn't you say?


Regards,
Bill

 

[robject]

Yes, the Ancient "map projector". It's a device which produces a real time 3D starmap of a 30 by 8,000+ parsec route towards the core. It also produces precognition visions in a tiny minority of users and thus is the Consulate's ultimate Kill Before Reading secret.

The device forecasts some events along the Route and elsewhere, but not all events and you can't choose what/when is shown either. The user doesn't "plug in" and get next year's Powerball winners for example.

It's Galadriel's gazing pool.