Armour Legality

[CosmicGamer]

Cosmic Gamer, I do not have nor do I expect to get Mongoose Traveller, so comments from that source are not exactly relevant to me.

At Class D and E starports, I can see a ship taking extra security measures, but not at Class A and B ports.

While the exact details may vary I think the concept that lower class ports have less security is the same and you got it.

 

[Dragoner]

Yes, I agree and you could have something like an E, where the natives throw up a trade flag (like on The Plague Ship) and even if you could, wearing armor or weapons would be an insult to local custom.

 

[Darkwing]

If the players exit their ship in Combat Armor (or, if Queen's English speaking, armour), I would assume that the first starport employee to see them would immediate trigger the Emergency Alert Siren and report a pirate raid on the facility. The Starport Authority immediately activates its security forces, dispatches its SWAT team (if it has one), alerts any adjoining Naval and/or Scouts base, and also alerts the planetary authorities to the assumed assault.

As military forces converge on the suspected raiders, action is immediately taken to neutralize the ship from with the characters disembarked, with the aim of gaining control of it so that it may not take off again, and if necessary disabling it by direct attack. Precision shaped charges are used to blast holes in the hull, rendering in no longer air tight and fuel tanks no longer able to contain fuel.

The players wearing Combat Armor as assumed to be raiders, and engaged immediately by the security and military forces, with no attempt at parley, and unless they immediately surrender, they will be killed. If they surrender, they will be treated and tried as piratical raiders, and executed by the local planetary authorities, unless they can convince them of the players complete stupidity. That only keeps them from being executed, but they will be imprisoned for extended terms, and all possessions of theirs seized to recover the costs of the military operation.

Wow! And I thought the Terror Safety Administration and Dept of Vaterland Security were excessive! Where's due process?

 

[Darkwing]

I liked the thought that wearing armor will increase the attention paid to the character by local law enforcement (outside the starport - inside the starport, I agree 100% with Aramis ... LL3 is LL3).

Wearing a suit of full tactical body armor is not illegal in any US cities that I am aware of, but one should expect to spend a lot of time answering questions from police who clearly have cause to stop you and ask lots of questions.

Even 30 years ago, before we started getting so paranoid and unreasonable, actually insisting on your right to open carry in Colorado and Texas (as allowed under the law) was asking for the cops to start hassling you despite having NO cause whatsoever under the law and general social attitudes prevailing. So even at the starport, I have no problem with LE pestering the party. "Yeah, you CAN wear/carry. But why would be a jerk and insist on actually doing it?"

OTOH, the Starbucks example really depends on circumstances. If it's across the street from a rent-a-cop agency, the local real police will be used to seeing it. Which the PCs, having just been lectured at the starport, don't know about...

 

[Timerover51]

Yes, I agree and you could have something like an E, where the natives throw up a trade flag (like on The Plague Ship) and even if you could, wearing armor or weapons would be an insult to local custom.

I see that I am not the only Andre Norton reader. That is also a factor when it comes to planets, as on New Texas, going un-armed in more noticed than being armed, while body armor might get the New Texas Rangers just a tad suspicious of your intentions.

 

[Dragoner]

I see that I am not the only Andre Norton reader. That is also a factor when it comes to planets, as on New Texas, going un-armed in more noticed than being armed, while body armor might get the New Texas Rangers just a tad suspicious of your intentions.

Norton's great. The Cosmic Computer also had everyone going around armed, depends on what body armor, combat armor, yes, that would be noticeable unless it's a vacc world and could be claimed t be just an expensive vacc suit. However, a cloth jacket, as described, if made to look like a normal jacket, would only be suspiscious if you wore it on a paradise planet in the summer or to the beach, my $.02.

 

[Timerover51]

In Piper's Murder in the Gunroom, Jeff Rand, the main character, does end up wearing a bulletproof vest to avoid being killed by the murderer with a .25 automatic. I suspect that if ballistic cloth armor had been around in Piper's time, then it might have shown up in some of his stories. Probably the President of New Texas would have been wearing it, along with Rodney Maxwell.

 

[Dragoner]

If Piper had stuck around, he would have seen it, sad about that, he was a great writer; a huge amount of his stuff is pure Traveller adventure material.

Usually I play/run frontier type areas, so minimal arms and armor are usually acceptable in the rough and tumble kind of areas where adventurers often are, if they get out into the nicer upscale neighborhoods, not so much.

 

[Timerover51]

If Piper had stuck around, he would have seen it, sad about that, he was a great writer; a huge amount of his stuff is pure Traveller adventure material.

Usually I play/run frontier type areas, so minimal arms and armor are usually acceptable in the rough and tumble kind of areas where adventurers often are, if they get out into the nicer upscale neighborhoods, not so much.

I am working on a story now, sort of a cross between Norton and Piper, and I am looking for a couple of people to take a look at it as I get it in more finished form. Takes place in my own Traveller universe, with some modifications to make it work.

 

[Jame]

Wow! And I thought the Terror Safety Administration and Dept of Vaterland Security were excessive! Where's due process?

When due process is the difference between wearing a Cloth jacket/coveralls and a pistol and dressing like you're the first elements in a Zhodani invasion, you mean?

Combat armor and assault weapons are generally military issue only for a reason. IMTU, when I get a chance to run, the only character who ever actually wore combat armor was specifically ex-military and attached, as a bodyguard, to a diplomatic mission. Everyone else has been a civilian wearing civilian armor with civilian weapons. Heck, even my FRPG characters who wore armor have been fighters or paladins, those who have been FRPG soldiers, and even then they'd most likely restrict themselves to only carrying sword and dagger when not out adventuring.

 

[Darkwing]

When due process is the difference between wearing a Cloth jacket/coveralls and a pistol and dressing like you're the first elements in a Zhodani invasion, you mean?

Unless your "invasion" is in company strength, yes. Even then, a 'shoot first, ask later' policy is almost always wrong.

Combat armor and assault weapons are generally military issue only for a reason.

We could quibble. OTOH, there's no such thing as an "assault weapon".

IMTU, when I get a chance to run, the only character who ever actually wore combat armor was specifically ex-military and attached, as a bodyguard, to a diplomatic mission. Everyone else has been a civilian wearing civilian armor with civilian weapons.

Nothing wrong with that. I created my own weapon list specifically so the players could only get what I allowed. In play, they've found it exciting to get excessive arms, but unwise to keep.

Heck, even my FRPG characters who wore armor have been fighters or paladins, those who have been FRPG soldiers, and even then they'd most likely restrict themselves to only carrying sword and dagger when not out adventuring.

In town, non-nobles should at least be questioned about the sword unless it's tied in a bundle and not worn convenient to draw, IMO.

 

[Dragoner]

I am working on a story now, sort of a cross between Norton and Piper, and I am looking for a couple of people to take a look at it as I get it in more finished form. Takes place in my own Traveller universe, with some modifications to make it work.

Sounds good, I'll take a look. I just finished reading an original printing of plague ship that I bought used in the basement of a bookstore here. A lot better reading than a 26 page term paper on IBM and GM (Rise and Fall of the Megacorps, tip o' the hat to Traveller) that I turned in two weeks ago. I'll treat myself to used paperbacks and some tea at cafe here near campus, good way to kill an afternoon re-reading the old stuff and maybe finding newer authors to salt the mix.

 

[Greylond]

We could quibble. OTOH, there's no such thing as an "assault weapon".

Actually, in MgT Central Supply Catalog there are, starting on Page
67.

My favorite is the Assault Grenade Launcher shooting Flechette rounds...

 

[Hyphen]

Oh I'm sure TL15 bullet proof long johns will be all the rage for adventuring types, it'll require that sort of TL advancement to cope with the extra fatigue, body cooling and general body odour issues you will get from wearing under clothing armour for 12+ hours per day

You mean an RCES body sleeve? And that's only TL 12.

With room temp superconductors to regulate heat, and whatever else magical they can come up with in materials technology, I think you'd be surprised what could be done by TL 15.

Just make sure you charge the PC's bank accounts appropriately..

 

[Hyphen]

We could quibble. OTOH, there's no such thing as an "assault weapon".

Is tha a troll? You said earlier you don't like restrictions in Real Life...

To discuss it in purely Traveller terms, there are two "assault rifles", a 5 mm and a 7 mm version, both TL 7. Both have 30-round magazines and allow autofire targets. The approach I have (admittedly biased, coming from living in a "high" law level society) is that most jurisdictions will consider weapons that have large magazines coupled to RoF's above 1 to be in the same category as these "assault rifles". Call them "military-grade weaponry" if you don't like the "assault weapon" moniker. Stuff not so much designed for animals (eg shotguns, hunting rifles), but for killing people - lots of people, in a short timeframe.

 

[Garyius2003]

I think the point was that assault weapon is an invented media term fed to them for political purposes.

There are actual assault rifles, which split the difference between rifle strength cartridges and automatic carbines. The first best being the StG44 followed in short order by the SKS.

Oddly enough the SKS was semi only and had a semi detachable magazine (clip fed) but met the other requirements, and is one heck of a lot of fun. Sort of a step back in design.

America kind of went the other way with the M-14, before settling on the M16 family. The Soviet empire also reinvented the Stg44 in total, with their AK family.

 

[Darkwing]

Is tha a troll? You said earlier you don't like restrictions in Real Life...

No, not trolling. We could debate the gun control laws elsewhere, but that real life argument is bleeding into the discussion here, partly in the use of inappropriate terminology.

To discuss it in purely Traveller terms, there are two "assault rifles", a 5 mm and a 7 mm version, both TL 7. Both have 30-round magazines and allow autofire targets. The approach I have (admittedly biased, coming from living in a "high" law level society) is that most jurisdictions will consider weapons that have large magazines coupled to RoF's above 1 to be in the same category as these "assault rifles". Call them "military-grade weaponry" if you don't like the "assault weapon" moniker. Stuff not so much designed for animals (eg shotguns, hunting rifles), but for killing people - lots of people, in a short timeframe.

1. Assault Rifles exist in real life. That's not the same as "assault weapons", which is a deceptive term indicating 'scary-looking gun', and which usually doesn't have the same capabilities.
2. Traveller adds a couple of other types using the 'assault' designation. But using the broad phrase "assault weapons" to describe them tends to conflate military-styled weapons and other categories.
3. Assault rifles are NOT designed for killing lots of people in a short timeframe. They're designed to keep a lot of people from shooting at you, and for wounding - generals have nice, sanitary theories about drawing other enemies to help wounded soldiers. In a gun-free zone, where no-one can shoot back, it can allow a maniac to achieve the effect you describe, but that's not the designed intent. And even those assault rifles are in a good hunting caliber. As long as they're not on burst or autofire, they're actually valid hunting weapons, depending on the game you're after - which might make a difference if that starport is a safari destination...
4. Whether the so-called "assault weapons" or actual assault rifles and similar military hardware is legally available is naturally dependent on local law level.
So if I have that body sleeve and a snub pistol (semi-auto), I ought to be able to legally wear & carry in more places than the guy with the combat armor and assault rocket launcher.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

We could debate the gun control laws elsewhere,

Please do.

4. Whether the so-called "assault weapons" or actual assault rifles and similar military hardware is legally available is naturally dependent on local law level.

This is the crux: on some planets, "assault weapons" will be banned and will scare everyone ('cause they look scary and all) and cause panic and great difficulty in pursuing peaceful interpersonal or commercial relations; on others, they might very well go unremarked. A FGMP will get you attention almost anywhere. Wandering about a peaceful society dressed like a tank will get some attention - how much depends on your interpretation of local law levels and the situation: guarding a starship, maybe not a big deal; making a quick trip to the local equivalent of Long John Silver's, oh yeah. (And, people scared of weapons will probably be scared of armor - especially powered armor.) But definitely do make them deal with it if you think it's inappropriate in that situation.

Starport guard: "Sir, ummm.... Do you understand that when you pass this gate some locals out there might consider this an armed invasion?"
Armored PC: "What do you mean? I always wear this - everywhere."
Starport guard, looking at him dubiously: "OK. Just so you know that if they arrest you we won't be allowed to stop them."
Armored PC, beginning to huff and puff: "Well, they wouldn't dare..."
Starport guard: "And, if you go blowing things up and stuff? Well, we're going to have to shoot you when you come back here. Nothing personal, it's just we have treaties and such to consider."

 

[the Nurse]

what a response!

New to forums generally; I'm impressed with the range of replies! Many thanks. I'll post after my group's next session to report on the fallout from the PGMP Sniper 'intervention'

 

[Jame]

Unless your "invasion" is in company strength, yes. Even then, a 'shoot first, ask later' policy is almost always wrong.

Okay, they'd at least get the police, whomever the Starport uses, saying "Stop where you are and drop your weapons!"

We could quibble. OTOH, there's no such thing as an "assault weapon".

In CT's LBB4 there's an assault rifle. For my game the Auto Rifle, SMG and Gauss Rifle, plus other versions from the rest of the Travellers, qualify because of that. At least in my game.

Nothing wrong with that. I created my own weapon list specifically so the players could only get what I allowed. In play, they've found it exciting to get excessive arms, but unwise to keep.

That's a good idea. If ever I run again I'm going to borrow that; thank you.

In town, non-nobles should at least be questioned about the sword unless it's tied in a bundle and not worn convenient to draw, IMO.

True; chivalric weapons and all that. But how many modern-day people would think of that? I'll bring it up to my fiancee and see what she says (she's running the Pathfinder game I'm in right now). And I've been thinking of having my fighter become a noble anyways... :devil: