• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Some Interesting Military Data

Hmmm, I guess that I visualize Aslan as genetically modified lions by the Ancients that did not exactly work out the way that they anticipated. Lions being preferred to tigers as lions have a pride system, whereas tigers are solitary.

That's fine for private TUs, but the original writeup of the Aslans made it clear that they were no more related to lions than to rutabagas. And they looked vaguely like lions, not actually like lions[*]. There were some lovely drawings by one of the Keith brothers that made that plain in addition to the text itself.

[*] Though admittedly the very first rendering of an Aslan, in an early library data entry, was unmistakably a lion-man.


Hans
 
Even without the Vargr and Aslan in an ATU setting, it *would* be interesting to play out an alien culture meeting a PC/NPC with a pet of some sort.

To direct it back onto the thread topic, what about animals as military aids? Dogs doing bomb or guard duty, dolphins doing sentry or mine work, ferrets as spies......?

True, and you do have meerkats as saboteurs, and eagles for aerial reconnaissance in Andre Norton's Beast Master. After having seen them in the wild in Alaska, I keep wondering if sea otters could be trained in some manner for use as scouts or sentries or even trained for limited small object recovery from the sea floor.

The Spanish did use war dogs very effectively in the New World against the Indians. Dogs were used a lot as messengers in World War 1, along with carrying light packs. Both sides developed gas masks specifically for the use of dogs, along with ones for horses and mules.

Then you have the Russian "dog mine" from World War 2. I have a picture of that from a Handbook of the Soviet Army from I think 1948 on one of my external hard drives. I will have to see if I can find that and maybe post it. There are mixed views as to the effectiveness, but as I have seen orders put out by the German Army on the Eastern Front to shoot all dogs on sight, I suspect that it did cause some problems.

The Finns made very good use of reindeer during the Russo-Finnish War of 1939-40 and the Continuation war, both for pulling "ahkios" and as pack animals. I had some interesting discussions with the head of the medical clinic while I was at Fort Richardson, Alaska in the mid-1970s about the use of reindeer-drawn ahkios for casualty evacuation, for which I did a fair amount of research. For operations under severe cold weather conditions, reindeer are not that bad an idea. They are a lot quieter than snow mobiles, although not as fast, obviously.
 
Last edited:
That's fine for private TUs, but the original writeup of the Aslans made it clear that they were no more related to lions than to rutabagas. And they looked vaguely like lions, not actually like lions[*]. There were some lovely drawings by one of the Keith brothers that made that plain in addition to the text itself.

[*] Though admittedly the very first rendering of an Aslan, in an early library data entry, was unmistakably a lion-man.


Hans

Not in the OTU.

I specifically did not label this thread an OTU-thread so as to get the widest possible range of discussion.

I do not think that "dog mines" are part of the OTU either.
 
True, and you do have meerkats are saboteurs, and eagles for aerial reconnaissance in Andre Norton's Beast Master.

Just think of those eagles as predator drones. ;) And, I will only watch BeastMaster if it's the uncut version. :smirk:

As to your other examples, I think even in a hi-tech Traveller universe, there are times when an animal would be a better choice than a machine. (You can't slit open the belly of your speeder and crawl inside to keep warm.)
 
Ferrets have been used for pulling wiring through tubes for a long time... they were also used directly as 'pipe cleaners' in the gas industry. They've been used for cleaning particle accelerators and wiring WWII bombers, not to mention, historically, poachers used them to get to rabbits on English estates and they are still used for hunting small game in borrows...

Senor and explosive laden ferrets, mice, etc. certainly could have military applications - especially in high tech societies and starships. ;)

Aside from serving as mascots, mine detectors, and in rescue missions.
 
IIRC (there are some years since I read it) in Mote in God's Eye ferrets were also used in starships as pest control, should mice or rats enter them. They left them loose when the watchmaker (I guess that's how they're called in the original version) escaped into the McArthur.
 
I specifically did not label this thread an OTU-thread so as to get the widest possible range of discussion.

I do not think that "dog mines" are part of the OTU either.

However, when you mention something that does have a clear definition in the OTU, it's probably more clear if you label that specific mention as non-OTU. Otherwise people just get confused.

For instance, anytime I mention my alternative drives or power sources, I make sure that the paragraph or post is marked IMTU so that people won't go looking in the manual for an S-drive or whatever.

And this goes double when I talk about Vargr or Aslan, which IMTU are humans with a littl dog or cat DNA, genetically engineered during the Republic. They can even interbreed with humans if everybody is broad minded. ;)

Does this make sense?
 
IMTU, semi-uplifted bobcats are not uncommon ship's cats. Vermin control, and stowaway detection. I count them as half a ship's troop each for crew requirements, but they require a 1Td stateroom, rather than 4Td.
 
Yes, they use ferrets at the power plant just to the north of me to help run cleaning lines through the water tubes of the boilers.

However, when you mention something that does have a clear definition in the OTU, it's probably more clear if you label that specific mention as non-OTU. Otherwise people just get confused.

For instance, anytime I mention my alternative drives or power sources, I make sure that the paragraph or post is marked IMTU so that people won't go looking in the manual for an S-drive or whatever.

And this goes double when I talk about Vargr or Aslan, which IMTU are humans with a littl dog or cat DNA, genetically engineered during the Republic. They can even interbreed with humans if everybody is broad minded. ;)

Does this make sense?

Certainly it makes sense. Have you ever read "The Ballad of Lost C'Mell" by Cordwainer Smith? A. Bertram Chandler, in one of his John Grimes stories, also has something very similar. That is close to what you are using.

In the James H Schmitz story, The Tuvala, genetically improved sea otters are used to help stop an alien invasion.

Hmmm, have not read that James Schmitz story, and he is one of my favorite authors.

Aramis, could you label this thread at Non-OTU to avoid further confusion in the future?

Still looking for the image of the Russian "dog mine". Might have to get out the original and rescan it.
 
IMTU, semi-uplifted bobcats are not uncommon ship's cats. Vermin control, and stowaway detection. I count them as half a ship's troop each for crew requirements, but they require a 1Td stateroom, rather than 4Td.

I like that. IMTU, I usually have genetically improved and partially uplifted macaws on many ships. They can get into all sorts of places so the engineers don't always like them. :)

Plus a half ton stateroom will hold a lot of them.

And there was a military version of the blue hyacinth macaw that is extremely dangerous.

I have a parrot in real life and one day he worked his way out of his cage. Just as I thought of closing the basement door, he disappeared into it. It took me another two or so hours to catch him. When I finally got him into his cage I had to spray him with cold water to help get his body temperature down.
 
And there was a military version of the blue hyacinth macaw that is extremely dangerous.

A military version of a macaw? Ummm.... RL? or in Traveller?

IMTU, semi-uplifted bobcats are not uncommon ship's cats. Vermin control, and stowaway detection.

Hmmmm. I'm going to have to look into which culture/polity in my ATU sector might have this sort of tradition. Might fit very well with the Marañon warlords. Maybe some other folk, too.
 
Tropical Vegetation and Military Operations

The following monograph is an Appendix to the US Marine Corps history "The Campaign on New Britain", and it discusses the effects of tropical vegetation on military operations. It is a US government public domain document that is on the Hyperwar website, and I have included that information in the cite. I thought that it would be of interest in anyone running a campaign on a planet were tropical vegetation was present. I have more data on terrain effects on military operations if there is an interest on the forum.

Appendix II
The Vegetation of New Britain and its Effect on Military Operations
by Captain L. T. Burcham, USMCR (Ret.)1

While the designation "rain forest" applied to the vegetation of New Britain is correct in a broad, general sense, this term conveys no idea of the variations in this rain forest which occur in response to such local influences as soil, drainage, and differences in elevation.

Vegetation may affect military operations by limiting or preventing movement; by limiting or preventing observation; and by providing cover and concealment from both ground and air. Further, vegetation serves as an excellent index to the character of the terrain, since there are definite, consistent relationships between plants and the habitats in which they grow. In the Southwest and Western Pacific the relatively uniform natural conditions, which have been little disturbed by man, are reflected by a small number of broad, uniform vegetation types. In that part of New Britain where the 1st Marine Division operated, and with which this discussion deals specifically, the vegetation may be classified in only six types--in contrast to more than twenty types in current use in the western United States. These are recognized and described as follows: mangrove swamp, swamp forest, tropical rain forest, secondary growth, grassland, and plantations.

Mangrove Swamp.--Mangrove trees may range from twenty to sixty feet tall; those in one locality generally are of uniform height. The main trunk is raised above the ground, supported by a dense tangle of stout prop roots which develop at an angle to the trunk, often ten feet above the ground. Mangroves can begin growth only in brackish or salt water, hence are found only near coasts on tidal flats and estuaries subject to flooding. The terrain is always poorly drained, and usually flooded at high tide; deep, muddy, meandering streams are common.

Cover from air observation is complete: ground observation and visibility are restricted to 10 to 15 yards. Movement of troops is virtually impossible due to the tangle of trunks and roots, as well as the poorly-drained or flooded terrain.

Swamp Forest.--Swamp forest is characterised by widely spaced trees of very irregular height, the tallest being upwards of 100 feet high. Quite commonly these trees have widely spreading buttress roots, which give a fluted appearance to the bottom of the trunk. Wide spacing and irregular height of the mature trees permit a moderately dense to very dense undergrowth of varying heights. Both undergrowth and mature trees are generally thickly matted with lianas, vines, and lawyer cane.

Swamp forest occurs near coasts or along lower courses of streams and similar inland areas; wherever it occurs much of the area is subject to periodic or occasional overflow by flood waters during the rainy season. The terrain under swamp forest always is of low relief and poorly drained. Some areas are comparatively dry during the dry season, but they are commonly flooded in the wet season by standing water or overflow from nearby streams. This vegetation type is the dank, steaming tropical jungle of the fiction writer.

Cover and concealment are complete in swamp forest. Ground observation usually is restricted to a few yards. Movement of troops or vehicles is very difficult. Flooded areas virtually preclude movement during the wet season. Large areas of swamp forest occur in the Cape Gloucester-Borgen Bay area: the vegetation behind the landing beaches was a strip of swamp forest which extended nearly to the airdrome area on the west, as well as eastward around Borgen Bay. In fact, a major part of the area where the 1st Marine Division operated was characterized by this type of cover.

Tropical Rain Forest.--Above the swamp forest is found the true rain forest of the tropics. Here the tallest trees are of fairly uniform height, set so closely together as to form virtually a complete canopy overhead. Usually there are only ten to twenty of these mature trees per acre, commonly 125 to 150 feet tall. There is a second "story" of smaller trees, their crowns reaching to just below the canopy formed by the tallest trees; frequently there is an understory of brush and young trees beneath these, ranging up to twenty or thirty feet tall. Sometimes there is a fairly complete ground cover of ferns and other herbs up to about two feet in height. The actual interior of such a forest is relatively open except for occasional small tangles of climbing bamboos, rattan palms, or lianas. Rain forest is characteristic of higher ground and well-drained terrain which may vary from gently rolling to rugged.

Complete cover and concealment from air observation are afforded. Ground observation is limited--a standing man can be observed at about 50 yards; a prone man usually will be concealed at 10 yards. Foot troops can move through rain forest with little difficulty and require practically no trail cutting. Physical character of the terrain--spur ridges, deep stream channels, or the like--may make travel difficult, but the vegetation itself offers little hindrance in true rain forest, which covers practically all of New Britain from an elevation of about 500 feet up to about 7,000 feet.

Secondary Growth.--Secondary growth occurs in vicinity of native villages where clearings for gardens have been abandoned and are reverting to forest. It forms a dense tangle of young trees, brush and vines; height and density depend on age of growth.

Since garden clearings are made in rain forest, the terrain under secondary growth is the same--well-drained, and gently rolling to rugged in configuration. This type of vegetation provides complete concealment for vehicles in its early stages. Ground observation is limited to a few feet. It is practically impossible for troops or vehicles to move through secondary growth without extensive cutting. Due to native practices of abandoning a garden after three or four years of cultivation, this vegetation type is relatively extensive about large villages.

Grassland.--Two kinds of grassland occurs on New Britain. First, the Kangaroo grasses (Themeda spp.), blade grass (Imperata sp.) and a number of similar grasses form stands which resemble the taller pasture grasses. Second, wild sugar cane (Saccharum spontaneum) occurs in pure stands over considerable areas; the stems are thick and reedlike, frequently an inch or more in diameter, and up to 15 feet tall. Both of these types of grassland were commonly called "Kunai grass" by our troops. Strictly speaking, Kunai refers to a variety of blade grass, Imperata cylindrica var. koenigii--supposedly "kunai" is a corruption of koenigii, which has been loosely applied throughout Australasia to all species of Imperata.

On New Britain grassland is confined to a few small areas near the coast, mostly in vicinity of Cape Gloucester, and on the west coast south of Aisega. It occurs only where the moisture supply is locally deficient. Configuration of the terrain varies from gently undulating to mountainous; the footing is firm. Foot troops frequently find complete concealment from ground observation; concealment from air observation is partial to complete, depending on height of the grass. In low grasslands visibility is excellent, but in taller grasses it is restricted to a few feet. Movement is easy for foot troops in the lower grasses, but entails considerable difficulty in old growth stands of wild cane. Grassland vegetation presents little problem to operation of vehicles.

Plantations and Cultivated Areas.--The cultivated areas here are planted mainly to coconuts; there are a few plantations of cocoa, coffee, and rubber. The coconut plantation is so familiar it needs no description. In most cases the trees are underplanted with grasses or legumes, which then are controlled by grazing cattle, to keep down weeds and shrubs. Usually plantations are located on the coast or navigable rivers.

Coconut plantations frequently are planted on swampy or poorly drained ground; other plantation crops are on well-drained ground. In a well-kept plantation there is little cover or concealment from aircraft. Ground observation and cover are poor. Movement of foot troops and mechanized equipment are relatively easy if swampy areas can be avoided. In plantations untended for a few years considerable young growth will be present, affording better cover and reducing visibility, but not appreciably affecting movement.

Footnote

1. This scholarly discussion was contributed by Capt Burcham, now Forestry Technician with California Division of Forestry, at the request of the authors of this monograph as a service to the Marine Corps. He served as Ass't D-2 through the Cape Gloucester phase of the operation, and as R-2, 5th Mar at Talasea.

Transcribed and formatted for HTML by Jerry Holden for the HyperWar Foundation.

I did give Frank Chadwick a photocopy of this from my copy at one of the latter Gen-Con conventions in Milwaukee, although I was thinking more of the Venus of Space 1889 at the time.
 
...
Still looking for the image of the Russian "dog mine". Might have to get out the original and rescan it.
I had some bookmarks about anti-tank dogs...

http://warwriting.blogspot.com/2011/01/russian-war-dogs-sacrificed-to-attack.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog
http://community-2.webtv.net/Hahn-50thAP-K9/K9History/

Also,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb

There's also some links to Project Pigeon, and other animals as weapons, such as Chinese incendiary monkeys, IIRC.
 
Ruler Decree

The following "firman" or decree from the Khedive (or ruler) of Egypt under the Ottoman Empire is taken from Sir Samuel Baker's book, Ismailia, being an account of his military expedition into Central Africa for the suppression of the slave trade in the area of Sudan and Darfur. The entire work, without illustrations or maps, is available from Project Gutenberg. I thought that it would be of interest to GM as a sample of what a far-reaching governmental decree would look like.

I was accordingly requested to draw up a plan for the proposed expedition to Central Africa.

After some slight modifications, I received from the Khedive the following firman:—

"We, Ismail, Khedive of Egypt, considering the savage condition of the tribes which inhabit the Nile Basin;

"Considering that neither government, nor laws, nor security exists in those countries;

"Considering that humanity enforces the suppression of the slave-hunters who occupy those countries in great numbers;

"Considering that the establishment of legitimate commerce throughout those countries will be a great stride towards future civilization, and will result in the opening to steam navigation of the great equatorial lakes of Central Africa, and in the establishing a permanent government . . . . We have decreed and now decree as follows:—

"An expedition is organized to subdue to our authority the countries situated to the south of Gondokoro;

"To suppress the slave trade; to introduce a system of regular commerce;

"To open to navigation the great lakes of the equator;

"And to establish a chain of military stations and commercial depots, distant at intervals of three days' march, throughout Central Africa, accepting Gondokoro as the base of operations.

"The supreme command of this expedition is confided to Sir Samuel White Baker, for four years, commencing from 1st April, 1869; to whom also we confer the most absolute and supreme power, even that of death, over all those who may compose the expedition.

"We confer upon him the same absolute and supreme authority over all those countries belonging to the Nile Basin south of Gondokoro."
 
The following "firman" or decree from the Khedive (or ruler) of Egypt under the Ottoman Empire is taken from Sir Samuel Baker's book, Ismailia, being an account of his military expedition into Central Africa for the suppression of the slave trade in the area of Sudan and Darfur. The entire work, without illustrations or maps, is available from Project Gutenberg. I thought that it would be of interest to GM as a sample of what a far-reaching governmental decree would look like.

The Fashoda incident occurs in this area at near about this time; always an interesting bit of history. It could be useful, say with Imperial and Zhodani competition over territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashoda_Incident
 
The Fashoda incident occurs in this area at near about this time; always an interesting bit of history. It could be useful, say with Imperial and Zhodani competition over territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashoda_Incident

Actually, that took place right after the Battle of Omdurman in 1898, when the Anglo-Egyptian force under Kitchener destroyed the Khalifate and recaptured Khartoum. It would be a interesting adventure or campaign possibility.
 
Plastic Protection

The following information is taken from the National Defense Research Committee report on WEAPON DATA: Fire, Impact, Explosion, Final Edition September 1945 OSRD NO. 6053. This report was formerly classified, under the World War 2 system, as CONFIDENTIAL, which would equate to today's SECRET. It was declassified under a bulk declassification order in 1977. Has a lot of interesting data. The following data is on Plastic Protection.

PERFORATION OF PLASTIC PROTECTION

Description


Plastic protection consists of a mixture, in proportion by weight as given, of the following materials: coarse mineral aggregate (exner gravel) - 60%; limestone dust filler - 30%; mastic bitumen and/or coal tar pitch - 10%. [Edit Note: mastic bitumen is asphalt.] A layer of this mixture is backed by a 1/8-inch to 1/4-inch plate of mild steel. To increase the structural strength as well as the stopping power of the material, chicken wire or expanded metal is embedded in the plastic mixture in the center or near the front surface. Occasionally, a front-plate of 20-gauge )or heavier) steel is applied.

Effectiveness

Stoppage of the projectile is largely due to the breaking-up and yawing of the cores before reaching the back plate. Inasmuch at the process may occur in a large number of ways, there is no sharply defined limiting velocity for a given thickness of material such that for higher velocities all bullets will perforate while for lower velocities none will. It may be said only that a certain percentage of projectiles traveling at a given velocity will be stopped by a given thickness of plastic protection.

There is a fairly extensive chart and graph included, given the thickness of plastic protection required to achieve a specified level of protection.

Amounts of plastic protection, mild steel, and special treated steel required for "Adequate Protection" {Edit note: This is defined as] (5% perforation at normal impact and close range)

Based on the table and charts, close range is about 100 yards. Overall, the weight of plastic protection needed is less than the weight of mild steel needed to stop a specified round, and a bit more, about 25% more, than special treated steel (armor quality steel). The major exception is against bomb fragments, where the weight of plastic protection needed is significant less that special treated steel, 72% of the weight of special treated steel for the required thickness of plastic protection.

Plastic protection was widely used for landing craft armor, especially for the coxswain's position, escort carrier bridges, and also home-defense armored cars. For Traveller, it would make a nice, effective, extemporized armor for vehicles and boats. Against laser fire, it might function about like very thick ablative armor.
 
Back
Top